THESE SIGNS

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#61
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

"they" refers to the apostles, even though "them" was added by translators to make the verse read smoother, it is understood the apostles are the 'they' and 'them' of this verse, the ones Jesus was addressing in this context.
I think we can all agree that the ones the verse says went out preaching with signs following are the apostles. That's not the issue. The issue is that the passage says that he that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and these signs shall follow them that believe. The apostles are preaching to every creature. Them that believe have signs following them.

Why does it shift from 'he that believes and is baptized' to 'they.' The signs follow the group of believers. Spiritual gifts are distributed one to one member of the body and another to another member of the body of Christ like I Corinthians 12 says. A similar principle applies to these signs. Not every believer is going to have some persecutor sneak poison in his drink during his lifetime and survive it. Tradition says it happened to Barsabas, but most Christians we know haven't had that happened to them.

This is kind of off topic, but I remember reading that Muhammad was poisoned, found out, and said if he was a true prophet, it wouldn't bother him. But later, on his deathbed, he attributed his illness to the poison.
 
Apr 22, 2014
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#62
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


"They" is in the original Greek text and refers to the apostles.

"The Lord working with" is not a smooth translation from Greek to English. "Working with" who? Them > they > the apostles

Adding "them" does no harm to the text, it just makes it read more smooth. SO the Lord was speaking to His apostles and it was "they" (apostles) that Jesus worked with confirming the word with signs.


God works with His word, whoever preaches it.
Isaiah 55: 11 says God's word will not return void but it will accomplish what pleases God and it what God says will prosper.
Jeremiah 1: 12 says God watches over His word to perform it.
So it doesn't matter who is speaking God's word, God will perform and confirm His word with signs following.

If you are going to restrict the signs to the Apostles Then you have to restrict salvation to the Apostles only, Mk 16: 16.

In Jn 14: 12, Jesus said HE THAT BELIEVES will do the same works the He did.
Who was Jesus talking about?? Jn 14: 12--16, says it's for those who receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 1: 8 says you shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come. Acts 2: 39 says it for as many as God has called,
If you believe God has saved you, Then you must believe this power of the Holy Ghost is for you.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#63
Why would so many people believe in the Jezebel spirit if it weren't for these people and their friends? (Isn't Frangipagne friends or at least some kind of college of Joyner?) It isn't mentioned in the Bible.
One statement and then several honest questions for you:

1. The term 'spirit' also can mean 'mind', therefore, 'spirit' isn't always an 'evil spirit/entity' but can be a 'mindset'.

2. Do you believe that evil spirits exist and can have influence in the lives of people, Christians included?

3. Do you believe that the Bible has to specifically spell out a thing for it to be true?

4. How many evil spirits does the Bible name?

5. How man ungodly mindsets does the Bible name?

Frangipane isn't the only one who has written books and articles on the Jezebel spirit, so if his testimony was to be dismissed because of 'shady associations', the same testimony shouldn't be dismissed by others who have no such associations but have reported the very same things about the Jezebel spirit. You have to admit that when so many books and articles by both men and women are published about one particular 'spirit' or 'mindset', it's time to take a closer look and see what they are talking about rather than dismissing it because the Bible never says word for word, "Jezebel is a type of evil spirit". The Bible only names several 'evil spirits', yet it implies that there are hosts and hosts of them (and tells us also in Eph. 6 among other places). It's fair to assume that each of these spirits have a name. Marianne is a lady who has written many articles on the many-faceted nature of Jezebel. At this link is her overall list of traits of the Jezebel spirit: Identify and remove the Jezebel spirit | Heaven Awaits. I'd say it's a good idea to be well informed about this spirit and its workings, because even if it denied as a spirit, its effects are seen far and wide, and it is unchecked much of the time in the churches, the workplace, the family, etc.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#64
I think we can all agree that the ones the verse says went out preaching with signs following are the apostles. That's not the issue. The issue is that the passage says that he that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and these signs shall follow them that believe. The apostles are preaching to every creature. Them that believe have signs following them.

Why does it shift from 'he that believes and is baptized' to 'they.' The signs follow the group of believers. Spiritual gifts are distributed one to one member of the body and another to another member of the body of Christ like I Corinthians 12 says. A similar principle applies to these signs. Not every believer is going to have some persecutor sneak poison in his drink during his lifetime and survive it. Tradition says it happened to Barsabas, but most Christians we know haven't had that happened to them.

This is kind of off topic, but I remember reading that Muhammad was poisoned, found out, and said if he was a true prophet, it wouldn't bother him. But later, on his deathbed, he attributed his illness to the poison.
I see all the pronouns 'they' and 'them' in verses 17-20 all refer to the apostles.

In v16 Jesus gives the great commission and the singular pronoun 'he' refers to anyone. Jesus did not say "he that believes and is baptized shall have signs following" for the "he" of verse 16 has nothing to do with the "they' and 'them' of verses 17-20.

Again, 2 Cor 12:12 Paul called them "signs of an apostle", he did not call them "signs of a believer".
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#65
God works with His word, whoever preaches it.
Isaiah 55: 11 says God's word will not return void but it will accomplish what pleases God and it what God says will prosper.
Jeremiah 1: 12 says God watches over His word to perform it.
So it doesn't matter who is speaking God's word, God will perform and confirm His word with signs following.

If you are going to restrict the signs to the Apostles Then you have to restrict salvation to the Apostles only, Mk 16: 16.

In Jn 14: 12, Jesus said HE THAT BELIEVES will do the same works the He did.
Who was Jesus talking about?? Jn 14: 12--16, says it's for those who receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 1: 8 says you shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come. Acts 2: 39 says it for as many as God has called,
If you believe God has saved you, Then you must believe this power of the Holy Ghost is for you.
The bible teaches signs have ceased, 1 COr 13; Eph 4. Many today claim they can perform signs and 100% of all of them I have personally encountered cannot back their claims.

Approximately a mile from where I work is about a 12 story hospital with over 1,000 beds. Anyone here that clams they can heal, come to where I am at and heal all in this hospital and I will pay for all their expenses out of my pocket (including first class travel), even buy them what ever they want for dinner before leaving and returning back to their home
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#66
That smells like Bad Sophistry to me. Take a look at these verses.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;(NIV)

Those who believe are the ones who believe the gospel the apostles preach. Look at verses 15-16. Why would the passage be about the apostles believing their own preaching?

That makes no sense.
---who in the context of Mk 16:9-20 were the unbelievers? Apostles

---Who was Jesus speaking to in the context? Apostles

---what is the nearest antecedent to the plural pronouns 'they' and 'them' in verse 17? 'the eleven; Apostles v14

---verse 20, who was Jesus working with with signs following? Apostles


The misinterpretation some place on vs16 and 17 means ALL who believe will have ALL those signs following. I believe with many others I know in person, may on this forum believe but none have signs following. Even in the first century when they actually could perform sign s, not all believers could, 1 Cor 12:29,30. So there is a problem with their misinterpretation.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#67
I see all the pronouns 'they' and 'them' in verses 17-20 all refer to the apostles.

In v16 Jesus gives the great commission and the singular pronoun 'he' refers to anyone. Jesus did not say "he that believes and is baptized shall have signs following" for the "he" of verse 16 has nothing to do with the "they' and 'them' of verses 17-20.

Again, 2 Cor 12:12 Paul called them "signs of an apostle", he did not call them "signs of a believer".
I know that google isn't the best counselor, but there are countless articles at your fingertips there. Assuming that the people here believe that apostles actually still exist today (i.e. the ministry is still available as that of the pastor is), maybe it helps to know some of the 'signs' that point to an apostle. There are plenty of books and articles, and there are many people saying they are apostles when they aren't. Here's a link on some 'signs' that point a person out as a genuine apostle: True & False Apostles | 9 Marks of Genuine Apostolic Ministry | Fire Press. There are many more teachings on this kind of thing; but the truth is that everyone must be known after the spirit and not the flesh which means that you're not really going to know a pastor, apostle, or anyone by just staring at and listening to them: the Holy Spirit has to reveal to your spirit who each person is. It's hard to know who is who, who is true, who is what, because we are used to using our own natural faculties to understand things. We believe a pastor is a pastor, for instance, not by having the Holy Spirit confirm it to our spirits but because he pastors a church, etc. God's original (and present) intention was that a minister is certified to others by the Holy Spirit bearing witness with their spirits. This is how Paul was able to say to the Corinthians, "Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord" (1Cor. 9:2). The Corinthians had the Holy Spirit's witness of Paul's ministry. If we don't know other ministers and Christians this way (by the spirit), we will never be able to tell who is who, who is true, who is false, and where one is coming from. If you ask a Christian, "How do you know that God called your pastor to pastor", the main issue begins to unfold: no one can truly be known unless they are known 'after the spirit' (by the Holy Spirit's witness to individuals). The NT focuses on the "signs of an apostle"; it doesn't say much about the 'signs of an evangelist, pastor, prophet, teacher' though it does give some 'signs' of bishops and deacons, what we today often call 'pastors'. There are 'signs' for each ministry and each calling which is how the Holy Spirit reveals to elders where each member fits: their signs (giftings, etc.). But these things have to be revealed by the Holy Spirit to each person's spirit (Jesus Himself prayed before God revealed to Him which of the disciples would be His twelve apostles), otherwise, they can't truly be known (though they may be 'believed' but without inner witness (e.g. "That pastor is a pastor because he pastors a church"... no inner witness)).
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#68
I know that google isn't the best counselor, but there are countless articles at your fingertips there. Assuming that the people here believe that apostles actually still exist today (i.e. the ministry is still available as that of the pastor is), maybe it helps to know some of the 'signs' that point to an apostle. There are plenty of books and articles, and there are many people saying they are apostles when they aren't. Here's a link on some 'signs' that point a person out as a genuine apostle: True & False Apostles | 9 Marks of Genuine Apostolic Ministry | Fire Press. There are many more teachings on this kind of thing; but the truth is that everyone must be known after the spirit and not the flesh which means that you're not really going to know a pastor, apostle, or anyone by just staring at and listening to them: the Holy Spirit has to reveal to your spirit who each person is. It's hard to know who is who, who is true, who is what, because we are used to using our own natural faculties to understand things. We believe a pastor is a pastor, for instance, not by having the Holy Spirit confirm it to our spirits but because he pastors a church, etc. God's original (and present) intention was that a minister is certified to others by the Holy Spirit bearing witness with their spirits. This is how Paul was able to say to the Corinthians, "Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord" (1Cor. 9:2). The Corinthians had the Holy Spirit's witness of Paul's ministry. If we don't know other ministers and Christians this way (by the spirit), we will never be able to tell who is who, who is true, who is false, and where one is coming from. If you ask a Christian, "How do you know that God called your pastor to pastor", the main issue begins to unfold: no one can truly be known unless they are known 'after the spirit' (by the Holy Spirit's witness to individuals). The NT focuses on the "signs of an apostle"; it doesn't say much about the 'signs of an evangelist, pastor, prophet, teacher' though it does give some 'signs' of bishops and deacons, what we today often call 'pastors'. There are 'signs' for each ministry and each calling which is how the Holy Spirit reveals to elders where each member fits: their signs (giftings, etc.). But these things have to be revealed by the Holy Spirit to each person's spirit (Jesus Himself prayed before God revealed to Him which of the disciples would be His twelve apostles), otherwise, they can't truly be known (though they may be 'believed' but without inner witness (e.g. "That pastor is a pastor because he pastors a church"... no inner witness)).
Mk 16 shows the signs were for the apostles, hence Paul calls them signs of an apostle. From Acts 8 the apostles could lay their hands upon another person and pass to that person an apostolic sign, yet that person could not pass that sign to another. Only the apostles had the ability to pass apostolic signs. After the last apostle died, no one was left to pass signs. After the last person died that had a sign given to him by an apostle, signs ceased, vanished away. Those signs fulfilled their purpose and no longer are needed. And the reason why no one will come to where I am and empty out the hospital...at my expense.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#69
Mk 16 shows the signs were for the apostles, hence Paul calls them signs of an apostle. From Acts 8 the apostles could lay their hands upon another person and pass to that person an apostolic sign, yet that person could not pass that sign to another. Only the apostles had the ability to pass apostolic signs. After the last apostle died, no one was left to pass signs. After the last person died that had a sign given to him by an apostle, signs ceased, vanished away. Those signs fulfilled their purpose and no longer are needed. And the reason why no one will come to where I am and empty out the hospital...at my expense.

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Matt. 13:58
 

CWJ

Banned
Jan 16, 2014
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#70
'How shall we escape,
if we neglect so great salvation;
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;

God also bearing them witness,
both with signs and wonders,
and with divers miracles,
and gifts of the Holy Ghost,
according to his own will?'

(Heb 2:3,4)

Hi there,

I agree with Seabass, that 'signs' were confirmatory, and of God. They ceased when Israel failed to come to repentance at the end of the Acts period, and were laid aside (temporarily) in unbelief. In the epistles that follow there is no evidence of signs being given. (see Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim. Titus, Phile.)

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Jan 6, 2012
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#71
Mk 16 shows the signs were for the apostles, hence Paul calls them signs of an apostle. From Acts 8 the apostles could lay their hands upon another person and pass to that person an apostolic sign, yet that person could not pass that sign to another. Only the apostles had the ability to pass apostolic signs. After the last apostle died, no one was left to pass signs. After the last person died that had a sign given to him by an apostle, signs ceased, vanished away. Those signs fulfilled their purpose and no longer are needed. And the reason why no one will come to where I am and empty out the hospital...at my expense.
Dear SeaBass, you shouldn't wait to see before you believe. If the Bible never says that signs, the gifts of the Spirit, and apostolic ministry ceased (rather, it says that they continue until the end of time), then you can't expect to believe that your belief and the lack of evidence in your life is greater than God's Word. You probably never traveled to China, but you believe it exists because you've been told, have seen Chinese people, have seen pictures and videos of China. Yet, if you haven't been there, can you really believe? Yes you can. God's Word says that the five ministries continue till the end of time. If you haven't seen the evidence of them, you should still believe, because God's testimony is greater than man's testimony.

The 'signs' and evidence that the apostolic and God's 'signs' and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are all around you, inside your body, in your home, in the air. You don't know how to see it and so cannot. But you can't deny them because you don't see them; it's like denying that atoms exist because you never saw them. Yet you believe they exist because of the testimony of others. From the inception of the first humans, God was already talking about apostolic ministry before He even sent Jesus to earth. If Jesus was never called an Apostle, you would say, "Jesus wasn't an Apostle; He was God." Yet the Bible calls Him an Apostle, a High Priest, a Prophet, a Pastor, a Teacher, an Evangelist, etc., and so you believe. When Jesus told Nathanael that he only believed that Jesus was the Son of God because he heard Jesus tell him something supernatural, He concluded, "You will see even greater things than these. Assuredly I tell you, you will see the heavens opened..." (Jn. 1:43-51).You will do better if you believe by what you've heard; but if you don't, stick around long enough, and you will see it.

The Bible bears a lot of witness to the truth. If you can't acknowledge the truth in the Bible, it will be hard to acknowledge it anywhere else. I.e. if you saw someone empty out that hospital of yours with signs and wonders, you would naturally feel a need to stick with what you believe which is that signs and wonders aren't for today. Don't ask me; it's just how it often works. The one verse that closes all debate about what is for today and what isn't (whether apostles or gifts of the Spirit or whatever) is Heb. 1:1-2; however, as Hebrews is a meaty Book, that passage doesn't appeal to those who cannot see spiritually and means nothing to them. Yet,it encapsulates everything in the Bible from Beginning to End and says that while what God did under the Old Covenant was incomplete, what God did in Jesus Christ was complete and as such must continue forever since it was founded on perfection or completion. Look at the passage with me:

"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son."


In the past, God did some things this way and some things that way; when Jesus (the Perfect) came, He did all things one way which is in Jesus Christ. As perfect, all those things (not just some as in the OT) will continue till the end. In the past, God healed some people and didn't heal others (when Jesus mentioned two instances of this fact in Lk. 4, the Jews tried to kill Him); in the past, He sometimes did and sometimes didn't; but in Jesus Christ, everyone was healed, and everything was whole and not in part-- not sometimes. (If you look in the NT, you will notice a very curious thing: there is never a mention where someone came to Jesus or Jesus came across someone with need and didn't heal or deliver them. This continues into the Book of Acts with the testimony, "and they were all healed" several times. The only time we see that it didn't work was with the disciples and the epileptic (whom Jesus then came and healed or 'completed') and the seven sons of Sceva who weren't Christians. This is partly recorded for us to prove that while 'in the past' it was sometimes and sometimes not, in Christ, it is meant to be always.) God spoke and operated in different ways in the past; but when Jesus came, He was the only Word: that means that what He did was the final say. God began things in the past some of which were abandoned (e.g. Hebrew dietary laws; in Christ, everything taken with thanksgiving became sanctified); but everything that God began in Christ continues forever. This includes signs and wonders, spiritual gifts, and apostles. If Jesus isn't the Final Word, then no one can be; it's either His Word or it's ours or someone else's. I have to believe that what He says is the truth, even if I never experience it. There's greater stability in that than in believing that things I've never seen or experience exist because men told me so.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#72
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Matt. 13:58
Unfortunately, 'unbelief' can also translate as 'pride' or 'stubbornness'. God created us with a need to be stable and safe, and our beliefs give us a feeling of that. When beliefs are disproved, it's still hard to change them if they are entrenched. In some nations that are more open to the supernatural, God doesn't have a problem doing 'signs'; but in Western nations where Grecian mindsets (overly cerebral, intellectual strongholds of thinking, etc.) are pervasive, He can rarely 'get a sign in edgewise'. Unbelief and pride (clutching a belief tightly even against facts or evidence) are able to keep Him away; but thank God that's going to be changing. Not even pride, the final frontier, is truly able to keep God out. Of course, it will require much greater 'power' to break through such thick walls of unbelief. Someone brought to my attention that only in Athens, where Paul encountered the Greeks and their philosophical mindsets, was Paul unable to start a church as recorded. (I define a philosophical mindset as "a safe place of being where one prefers to 'intellectualization' over action to the extent that evidence is not sufficient to evoke change".) How ironic, because Paul's 'sermon' there is my favorite 'sermon' in all of Acts (though Stephen's before the Pharisees is a close second).

A philosophical mindset is too proud to be 'religious'-- i.e. to believe in the supernatural. The Athenians listened to Paul until he mentioned that Jesus had risen from the dead; they then dismissed him as a lunatic. But Paul knew them more than they knew him: he began his address to them by saying, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious..." This was partly his way of getting their attention: "Us? Religious? Not even close!" But as he continued, it began to dawn on them that he knew a little something: "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD."Their city was full of idols, because they were searching for God and didn't know it. Therefore, Paul continued, "Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 'God...'" They were seeking God without knowing it; they were too smart to think they were religious or seeking or needed God. Therefore, Paul explained further: "He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’" BRILLIANT. He disassembled all their pre-thought reasonings and drove home the point that they did believe in God by quoting one of their own beloved philosophers. They were trapped; their only out was the 'super supernatural': "[God] has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." When they heard that, they breathed a sigh of relief and began mocking him like fools are prone to do, happy that they wouldn't have to, after all, abandon their prideful (stubborn) mindsets (which were anti-supernatural). Only a few joined Paul from that camp. (Acts 17:22-34.) Brilliance only goes so far; for the rest, you need living power to crack strongholds and stubborn mindsets wide open: supernatural wonders. In spite of satan's extremely clever and well put together system to reject and hide the truth of the very supernatural aspect of God in Western nations primarily, his walls and domes won't keep out this truth forever. It will be up to those who didn't believe but who see it to choose to believe or go along with their stubborn beliefs and fight against it.

Christ crucified is still a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greek-minded. America is definitely founded on Greco-Roman values. The colleges overflow with fraternities, sororities, and anti-Christ teachings (i.e. teachings that make people oppose Christ without being aware of it). There was a time when God allowed unbelief and pride to keep Him back from working; we know that before the very end, all of those will have to bow to Him and admit that, whether He is their Lord (superior to them) or not, He is Lord.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#73
'How shall we escape,
if we neglect so great salvation;
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;

God also bearing them witness,
both with signs and wonders,
and with divers miracles,
and gifts of the Holy Ghost,
according to his own will?'

(Heb 2:3,4)

Hi there,

I agree with Seabass, that 'signs' were confirmatory, and of God. They ceased when Israel failed to come to repentance at the end of the Acts period, and were laid aside (temporarily) in unbelief. In the epistles that follow there is no evidence of signs being given. (see Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim. Titus, Phile.)

In Christ Jesus
Chris
What about the epistles in which there is evidence of signs given. The Bible, history, and our own lives bear witness with the truth (even lies bear witness to truth and are founded on truth in the end, so there's no way to escape it), so I won't give many references since our beliefs have much more to do with our mindsets (worldviews) than with the truth:

I. 1Corinthians

A. "And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God... And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God" (2:1, 4).

B. "Now some are puffed up, as though I were not coming to you. But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power" (4:18-20).

II. 1Thessalonians

A. "Our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake" (1:5).

It's fair to say that Paul didn't write the above two epistles before he wrote the others that you name as if he once did signs and then stopped and so didn't write about them anymore. It would help for you to know several things:

1. Genuine ministers who perform signs and healings or anything for God don't go telling people (Jesus tried to keep things discreet; the apostles followed suit; and Jesus said that when you [do a good deed], you shouldn't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing (if that doesn't mean to keep the works of God discreet, I don't know what does); if people aren't told, people won't know.

2. Paul speaks about some supernatural aspects of his life in his epistles, but he never mentions any miracles or healings he did. He even said he'd boast in his weaknesses (he'd share his trials) rather than in things that make him look great to others (signs and miracles). He purposely doesn't record the great things he did but instead his struggles; it is done purposely so people would depend on God and not him. Don't you think this is odd: in the Book of Acts, we're told about some supernatural occurrences in Paul's and Peter's lives... but they don't mention them in their epistles. Ah, maybe it's starting to be clearer; John the Baptist made it popular, and now we sing it: "It's all about You, Jesus."

3. It's unwise to go explicitly by what is written and isn't written, because none of the Twelve apostles besides Peter and John are explicitly recorded as doing these so-called "signs of an apostle". Where is the meaning in this? Jesus gives no blueprint on how to govern and tend the churches; He says the apostles will do signs, but only Peter and John are recorded by name doing them... and then you have two fellows who aren't even apostles recorded by name as doing these signs (Stephen and Philip); Jesus performed many more miracles than are recorded (thank God we have John to tell us that, otherwise...), yet the four Gospel writers record so many of the same miracles that it seems they are all He did. Are you starting to see the 'confusion' in this (or why confusion enters with so many different doctrines and beliefs).

God's ways are higher than ours-- i.e. they are above. Some people say alien races exist who are light years smarter than us and that their talking to us (or our understanding their technology) is like an ant trying to understand a human being. It can be said, "Their ways are higher than ours." This is what it means that God's ways are higher than ours: He is on a whole different level of existence (literally), and we cannot access His ways unless He gives us access; we cannot understand them unless He gives us understanding. God left the Bible as it is-- contradictions, lack of clarity, this and that-- because He has hidden its meaning from the natural man (even satan with all his wisdom was fooled though it was plainly written that Jesus would die to save mankind (see 1Cor. 2:6-8); this is how wise God's wisdom is: He can say it and you still miss it because you're supposed to except under the teaching of His Spirit). The Holy Spirit was given to the apostles to learn God's will (He told them they should go to the Gentiles; they couldn't do it till the Holy Spirit gave them light on the topic. He told them all about Himself; they couldn't understand till He breather the Spirit on them and opened their understanding. This is the need and necessity of the Holy Spirit; spiritual understanding about the things of God without Him is impossible). The Holy Spirit unfolds God's will, ways, and Word. It is without Him that all of the above become jumbled and confusing and people take different sides and doctrines and beliefs; but in Him, people think the same things and walk in one mind-- in unity. The Holy Spirit unites people and promotes freedom: when unity and freedom lack, that's because the <acceptance of the> work of the Holy Spirit lacks. It's that simple.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#74
I see all the pronouns 'they' and 'them' in verses 17-20 all refer to the apostles.
In the context 'them that believe' are believing something. They are believing the Gospel preached BY THE APOSTLES. Remember, the part about believing and being baptized?

In v16 Jesus gives the great commission and the singular pronoun 'he' refers to anyone. Jesus did not say "he that believes and is baptized shall have signs following" for the "he" of verse 16 has nothing to do with the "they' and 'them' of verses 17-20.
Of course it does. One verse comes right after the other! If people believe, they have to believe something or someone. In this context, they are believing the Gospel. And 'they'-- the group-- do the signs, rather than each individual in the passage, just like we see with spiritual gifts in I Corinthians 12. Individuals have different gifts.

Again, 2 Cor 12:12 Paul called them "signs of an apostle", he did not call them "signs of a believer".
The end of I Corinthians 12 lists various ministries that different members of the body of Christ might have. It lists apostles, prophets, teachers. But it also lists miracles and healings. This indicates that there were some prophets who weren't apostles, some teachers who weren't apostles, and some miracle-workers who weren't apostles.

I also wonder why people who think that these passages in the Bible written to the church aren't true anymore seem to think that anyone who operates in a gift of healing is going to do like Peter-- heal everyone with his shadow, and to the same extent. Paul wrote of the signs of an apostle, but he also wrote of those members of the body who aren't apostles who do miracles.

Even if you just read Acts, Philip and Stephen did miracles. Even before the crucifixion, there were people who weren't traveling with the twelve who cast out demons in Jesus name, and the disciples, wrongly, forbade them. Jesus said not to forbid them, because no one who did a MIRACLE in his name could straightway say something bad about him. (See Mark 11.)

So there were people who weren't apostles doing miracles even before the Spirit was poured out as broadly as it was in the last days as shown in Acts 2.
 
Apr 22, 2014
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#75
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


"They" is in the original Greek text and refers to the apostles.

"The Lord working with" is not a smooth translation from Greek to English. "Working with" who? Them > they > the apostles

Adding "them" does no harm to the text, it just makes it read more smooth. SO the Lord was speaking to His apostles and it was "they" (apostles) that Jesus worked with confirming the word with signs.


"THEY" is NOT in the original Greek, And the "Them that believe", isn't just the Apostles.
If the signs were just for the Apostles, Then so is salvation Mk 16: 15--16.


"The Lord working with and confirming the word with signs following", Is a perfectly smooth translation to me.

Please note what V20 doesn't say,
"God confirmed THEIR word", [Their, being the Apostle], It says God confirmed "THE word".

God has always worked with, and confirmed His word,
There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the power has stopped, There is nothing in the Bible about God not confirming His word today.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,082
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#76
'How shall we escape,
if we neglect so great salvation;
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;

God also bearing them witness,
both with signs and wonders,
and with divers miracles,
and gifts of the Holy Ghost,
according to his own will?'

(Heb 2:3,4)

Hi there,

I agree with Seabass, that 'signs' were confirmatory, and of God. They ceased when Israel failed to come to repentance at the end of the Acts period, and were laid aside (temporarily) in unbelief. In the epistles that follow there is no evidence of signs being given. (see Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim. Titus, Phile.)
This passage you quote is about the word being confirmed among Hebrews. But Acts 14 shows Paul doing a healing among a pagan Gentile crowd. In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas tell about the miracles they did among the Gentiles. They were not only for Jews.

I Corinthians 12 also shows us that spiritual gifts, including the working of miracles are for the common good of the body of Christ. They aren't exclusively for signs to unbelievers.

Israelites still exist to this day. They weren't wiped out at the end of the first century. The gospels and Acts contain accounts of miracles because of the narrative nature of the books. But in the last book of the Bible, the book of Revelation, we see two witnesses that would prophesy and work great miracles who would do these things after the close of the book of Revelation.

The Bible gives direct didactic teaching that certain spiritual gifts are given to members of the body as the Spirit wills in I Corinthians 12. If you did not find any examples of 'signs' in the epistles, that doesn't cancel the doctrinal truths actually taught in the New Testament.
 
May 15, 2013
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#77
'And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues...' - Mark 16 vs 17 *

This is a very profound statement the Lord made to His disciples, which gives us a rigid principle for supernatural manifestation in our generation. He said to them that certain signs, miraculous signs will of a necessity and normality follow anyone that believes in Him, and those signs are given expressly above. *

Brothers and Sisters, what are we waiting for? This is time to take advantage of the precious words of the Lord Jesus in faith and see the miraculous works manifested everywhere and in every place, and all that is needed to act on the words of the Lord Jesus is FAITH (Certainty, Surety). I will show that to you in the Bible from the story of Peter walking on the water; *

Matthew *14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. *14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. {KJV} *

From the above passage, we could see Peter taking advantage of the precious word of Jesus which was COME. Peter acted upon that word in faith, and the Bible records that he walked on the water to go to Jesus. But something terrible happened in verse 30, he doubted, and began to sink. Now, I want you to notice what Jesus said to him; *

Matthew *14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? {KJV} *

Notice the underlined word(s), 'O thou of little faith', and*'wherefore didst thou doubt?' This tells us that Peter's sinking was directly connected to his lack of faith or rather lack of sustained faith on the word of Jesus. *

Listen to this, let's not try to improve on the word of God, but let's simply step out in faith and do his word, and the result(s) will be inevitable. Just like Peter, let us believe the word of the Master, and act on it without wavery or doubtings, lest we sink (lack the expected result). *

God Bless You.
- Pastor Jenning Uweye


More @ Pastor Jenning Online
Matthew 12:39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Only sign that will be given, is when you see people that were once disobedient, through hardship they will become obedient to the true nature of God. And that is a miraculous thing to see.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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Can anyone here please share what the 'signs of a pastor' are. If we can start there, we will be traveling at pretty high speeds before we know it. People tend to overlook first things and shoot for the stars from the very start. In baseball, whether you hit a single or double or triple or homerun, you're privileged and obligated to run first to first base, secondly to second base, thirdly to third base, and fourthly to home plate. What happens when we don't follow a progressive order is that we naturally miss important things (and are out of the game before we even know it). Jesus told the religious leaders:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you give a tenth of your mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected and omitted the weightier (more important) matters of the Law—right and justice and mercy and fidelity. These you ought [particularly] to have done, without neglecting the others" (Mt. 23:23, AMP).

First things are done first but not to the neglect of secondary things. Today, we usually go for the secondary and tertiary things first before establishing the first things. This leaves churches, families, friendships, marriages, and all kinds of things lacking and often encountering issues that weren't necessary for them. "Unless the Lord builds the house (and marriage, church, family, friendship, business venture, etc.), they labor in vain (labor toward no completion) who build it" (Ps. 127:1). There are things that come first without which secondary things will work properly. While we wonder about what "these signs" meant when Jesus said them, we should know that there are different types of signs for different types of believers. Then we should begin, if we want to find out what "the signs of an apostle" are, by finding out what 'the signs of a pastor' are. Why begin there? Because we have many pastors and are used to seeing them; it's more practical to determine what signs establish a person as a pastor than it is to find what signs establish one as an apostle. If we don't know the signs of those (i.e. pastors) who we see everyday, how can we know the signs of things that we haven't seen.

For those who say that it isn't God's will to give any signs today and misquote where Jesus seems to chide people for asking for signs, reading the Bible is not having a relationship with God. God is a real Person, separate from printed words on pages. Without a relationship, you can only grasp with your intellect the things written in the pages. A relationship allows you to see beyond the words of the pages and to see the Word Himself. E.g. people say things like, "It isn't God's will to heal today; it isn't God's will to do signs today; etc." That talk comes from a relationship with a Book and not with God. Jesus said, "Which one of you fathers, if your child asks you for bread will give him a stone? Or which one of you, if your child asks you for a fish, will give him a stone? If you <fathers>, then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will God give to those who ask Him?" You who say that God no longer heals today need to look at yourselves as you cannot yet see beyond the written words: if your child needed healing and you had the power to speak the word and do it, would you get tired of doing it and tell your child, when he grew up, that he needs to learn to heal himself? If your child wanted something and you had the wherewithal to get it for him/her, would you withhold? Your goodness, compared to God's goodness, is pure evil... but you can still do good for your children and even for strangers you don't know. If God did 'good' for others, is He now saying He won't do 'that much good' for us: "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with Him" (Acts 10:38). Jesus was sent to 'do good' (His mission explained in Isa. 61:1-4 and Lk. 4:18-19); now that He has left, has His mission suddenly changed so that He is not in the Holy Spirit 'God with us'. A relationship with words in the Bible and a relationship with God are markedly different: for instance, the former puts God in a box (the Bible) and limits Him and can never stop editing the Bible and saying what is and isn't for today; but the latter sees that God can't be confined-- that God determined what the Bible would say but the Bible doesn't determine who God is.
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
39
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#79
The earliest transcripts of Mk 16, Had the ending in it, Plus it goes along with God's will for His people to hipreach with signs following... We see it throughout the book of Acts.
Yes indeed either they believe or they dont , but I as a believer believe in all the signs and liberation even modern science proves the believers giftings and attributes , it could be as far as to say dur to unbelief they cannot see Hod but are limited to just words and no revelation or showing of His power .