Original Sin

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K

Kerim

Guest
#1
#1
May I ask to which sin the expression ‘original sin’ (assuming the spelling is right) refers?

And how did men heard about this sin?

Did Jesus talk clearly about this particular ‘original sin’ (or any equivalent one) by naming it?


Thank you in advance for any information that you may share with me about this sin.
 
Timeline

Timeline

Senior Member
#2
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
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#2
Original sin, as I understand, is the belief that we are born under sin. Eating from the tree of knowledge would be the original sin (or coveting by Eve wanting what Satan said God was keeping from her). But this is no longer in effect.

Exodus 34:7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”

Ezekiel 18:14-32
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father’s sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise. [SUP]15 [/SUP]He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife, [SUP]16 [/SUP]or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, [SUP]17 [/SUP]he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. [SUP]18 [/SUP]As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. [SUP]22 [/SUP]All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? [SUP]26 [/SUP]When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [SUP]32 [/SUP]For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”

The Old Testament tells us that the following generations will carry the iniquity of their fathers, but then God removes this in Ezekiel. Baptizing babies is not possible and is not necessary.
 
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K

Kerim

Guest
#3
#3
Thank you, Timeline, for your reply.

I didn't see Jesus mentioning clearly this particular 'sin’, known as 'original sin'.
Did I miss something?
Thank you.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#4
Sep 4, 2013
30,247
6,569
113
#4
Is this another one of your tests? Where you "fish" for comments, then come back with your own theological beliefs?

anyway..........IF YOU are actually interested.......

Read the first couple of chapters of Genesis.............then read the entirety of the 5th Chapter or Romans......

that should answer any questions anyone has concerning the original sin........
 
Timeline

Timeline

Senior Member
#5
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
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#5
Kerim said:
Thank you, Timeline, for your reply.

I didn't see Jesus mentioning clearly this particular 'sin’, known as 'original sin'.
Did I miss something?
Thank you.
Click to expand...
I am not aware of Jesus mentioning original sin. I am also not aware of Jesus suggesting that we are born sinful. However, the bible does say that flesh/physical bodies are "sinful flesh". John says that if any man says that he does not sin, He calls God a liar. John then follows this saying that the one born of God cannot sin. Is John confused? No, He is telling us that while we are in the flesh we are always fighting against our outer man. We do not sin, not because we are perfect, but because, being led by the Holy Spirit there is no law; And where there is no law, there is not violation. But we very clearly see that this is not a license to sin, but the giving of a clear conscience so that we can do the will of God without being bound by the Law of Moses. Not to speak against the Law, as it leads us to Jesus.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

because:
Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
and
Romans 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
but
Romans 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
and
Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Listening to the Holy Spirit and following the will of God is important. If we ignore the instruction from the Holy Spirit we are refusing to be led by the Spirit - And that is key. We do not boast in our work either because it is through the work of Jesus Christ that we are saved and not our own work. But faith without work is dead and is useless.


References to the flesh's natural inclination to sin:
Romans 8:3





For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 13:14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.



Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#6
#6
Kerim said:
May I ask to which sin the expression ‘original sin’ (assuming the spelling is right) refers?

And how did men heard about this sin?

Did Jesus talk clearly about this particular ‘original sin’ (or any equivalent one) by naming it?


Thank you in advance for any information that you may share with me about this sin.
Click to expand...
Original sin means all men under Adam are born in sin along with his sinful nature. Scriptural reference is Genesis 3 and Romans 5. Because Adam was our representative and federal head in the garden of Eden, his sin became our sin, his death became our death, his nature became our nature. Jesus said all who sin is a slave to sin.

Just as through one man sin and death came into the world, also through one Man we receive grace and life.

Examples of this is a child. Assuming you are a "good" parent, do you teach your children to lie or steal? To covet and to hate? If not, why do they do these things naturally? Because they inherit Adam's nature. Until we have a new nature in Christ, we are dead in our sins.
 
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Timeline

Timeline

Senior Member
#7
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
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#7
Spokenpassage said:
Original sin means all men under Adam are born in sin along with his sinful nature. Scriptural reference is Genesis 3 and Romans 5. Because Adam was our representative and federal head in the garden of Eden, his sin became our sin, his death became our death, his nature became our nature. Jesus said all who sin is a slave to sin.

Just as through one man sin and death came into the world, also through one Man we receive grace and life.

Examples of this is a child. Assuming you are a "good" parent, do you teach your children to lie or steal? To covet and to hate? If not, why do they do these things naturally? Because they inherit Adam's nature. Until we have a new nature in Christ, we are dead in our sins.
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I have not done an in-depth study of Original Sin. But some teach that original sin means that if a baby dies before he/she is baptized, then they are condemned to hell. This is false, as I think you agree. Some discuss the "Age of Accountability", which is not in the bible either, but I believe more accurately describes the reality. As we mature, we get to a point where we accept Jesus as the Way and the only door to salvation or we deny Jesus. This is something that a baby or infant cannot grasp and therefore God does not condemn a baby to hell for Adam's sin (or all the sins from Adam to the present).

Maybe I misunderstand what is being taught by the original sin concept, but as with many things, I am sure it changes depending on who is saying/teaching it. I do agree that we inherit the nature of Adam, but I do not believe that children are condemned for it. (The rate of maturity in children is subject to change from one child to the other:))
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#8
#8
Timeline said:
I have not done an in-depth study of Original Sin. But some teach that original sin means that if a baby dies before he/she is baptized, then they are condemned to hell. This is false, as I think you agree. Some discuss the "Age of Accountability", which is not in the bible either, but I believe more accurately describes the reality. As we mature, we get to a point where we accept Jesus as the Way and the only door to salvation or we deny Jesus. This is something that a baby or infant cannot grasp and therefore God does not condemn a baby to hell for Adam's sin (or all the sins from Adam to the present).

Maybe I misunderstand what is being taught by the original sin concept, but as with many things, I am sure it changes depending on who is saying/teaching it. I do agree that we inherit the nature of Adam, but I do not believe that children are condemned for it. (The rate of maturity in children is subject to change from one child to the other:))
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This where scripture can get thin in. It is believed (which I hold to), that if a baby dies in infancy they are regenerated and are saved. Not because they are innocent, since we all are born guilty in Adam, but because they have the natural inability to receive the offer of salvation. Just as you have the inability to fly, so also babies are inable to comprehend the Word.

By the way, having a sinful nature cannot be exclusive to being born guilty. Having that kind of nature is sin before God.
 
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Timeline

Timeline

Senior Member
#9
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
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#9
Spokenpassage said:
This where scripture can get thin in. It is believed (which I hold to), that if a baby dies in infancy they are regenerated and are saved. Not because they are innocent, since we all are born guilty in Adam, but because they have the natural inability to receive the offer of salvation. Just as you have the inability to fly, so also babies are inable to comprehend the Word.

By the way, having a sinful nature cannot be exclusive to being born guilty. Having that kind of nature is sin before God.
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Praise God.

We know of His mercy. And we often find ourselves without knowledge that we would like to have. But ultimately we know that ALL decisions belong to Him. And that He is Love. He is just. And that is enough.

We have no reason to worry that God doesn't know how to handle things. And what would worrying accomplish anyway.
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#10
#10
Timeline said:
Praise God.

We know of His mercy. And we often find ourselves without knowledge that we would like to have. But ultimately we know that ALL decisions belong to Him. And that He is Love. He is just. And that is enough.

We have no reason to worry that God doesn't know how to handle things. And what would worrying accomplish anyway.
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Yes! Amen. My avatar is a quotation from Psalm 37:23. I am comforted in His amazing grace. Not only did it save a wretch like me, but will also preserve me in Him to the end for His glory. Just as Charles Spurgeon once said, "It is folly to think the Lord provides grace for every trouble but the one you are in today."
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#11
#11
Spokenpassage said:
Yes! Amen. My avatar is a quotation from Psalm 37:23. I am comforted in His amazing grace. Not only did it save a wretch like me, but will also preserve me in Him to the end for His glory. Just as Charles Spurgeon once said, "It is folly to think the Lord provides grace for every trouble but the one you are in today."
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God knows what He has done, does, and will do. :)
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#12
#12
To tell the truth and this may be difficult for some, but the original sin is when Adam chose Eve over God. It was Satan's attempt to defile the seed of man. Because it was said of God for them to be fruitful and multiply. God defined being fruitful in the afore passages saying that they have seed in themselves. So to be fruitful is to propagate seed. However, after the sin of man all seed of man was tainted with sin, meaning that we are set on edge to sin. No where is this more prevalent than in a teenager, but it doesn't stop there.

That's why the cross breaks the power of sin, It does not eliminate sin but breaks it's bond over us. This why we must keep our faith in the work of the cross and not our own. Because when our faith is moved from the cross and placed on what we do, guess what? the power of sin revives and controls us. Then we twist scripture to justify what we do or we just simply give up and say this is not for me.

OR we will say, praise God I was baptized and there fore it ma look like sin but it really isn't because I cannot sin according to John. And all the while your living in sin and don't know how to get out of it. The preacher say's well have you been baptized and you say yes, bit pastor I can't stop watching porno's or but, pastor I can't stop drinking and it's destroying my family. Well son if you have been baptized then you are under the grace of God and what you are doing is a lesson that God is teaching you.

WRONG, it is a lie, the fact is we have taken our faith off the work of the cross and placed in what we are doing and the pastor wants you to read a self help book or go through some program. Did you read a book or attend a self help seminar when God touched your heart and saved you. We need to look at what the cross really means.
 
G

gregfl

Guest
#13
#13
the false doctrine of original sin isnt anything new,God mentions it in eze 18
Eze 18:1 ¶The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#14
#14
He is talking about the cross as it is the only thing that breaks the power of sin.
 
K

Kerim

Guest
#15
#15
p_rehbein said:
Is this another one of your tests? Where you "fish" for comments, then come back with your own theological beliefs?

anyway..........IF YOU are actually interested.......

Read the first couple of chapters of Genesis.............then read the entirety of the 5th Chapter or Romans......

that should answer any questions anyone has concerning the original sin........
Click to expand...
Thank you for your references but, as you know, my question is

Did JESUS TALK CLEARLY about this particular ‘original sin’ (or any equivalent one) by naming it?
Click to expand...
I mean, where is Jesus Christ in Genesis and Romans?

Do you think Jesus Christ didn't have enough time talking about this 'original sin' (as he did clearly for all other important subjects) or He didn't know that it will be a crucial subject for millions of Christians?

Thank you.

Note: Please, rehbein, ignore my questions and comments if you are not Christian. And if you are Christian and you cannot see Jesus as your divine perfect teacher, please forgive me because I became sure that Jesus Christ is the Living Son of God after I personally realized the perfection of His teaching and not because of anything else.
 
K

Kerim

Guest
#16
#16
Spokenpassage said:
Not to speak against the Law, as it leads us to Jesus.
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Thank you for your interesting follow-up.

As my school books were my first steps that helped me be the professional at work afterwards, God's Law was very important to prepare the kids of humanity. Then the Living Son of God came to give the final updated image of God and to reveal all answers that help those who are created also with a human living soul know better themselves, hence the Will of God.

For example, I guess you heard (Matthew 5:45):
"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."
Do you think there is a clearer saying about the Will of God?
 
K

Kerim

Guest
#17
#17
Spokenpassage said:
Examples of this is a child. Assuming you are a "good" parent, do you teach your children to lie or steal? To covet and to hate? If not, why do they do these things naturally? Because they inherit Adam's nature. Until we have a new nature in Christ, we are dead in our sins.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the example.
But I didn't get well what you like saying by 'we have a new nature in Christ', practically speaking.

Thank you.
 
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