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When God convicts, He lets you know what it is, i.e. you will know what it is, and it is often pleasant/freeing. God never says, "you need to repent of that subtle and hidden sin you committed 30 years ago that you forgot about". If you don't know you've sinned and someone is telling you that you have, that is satan.
You say it's risky but realise that's how Jesus taught us to pray. A simple one line "forgive us our sins". None of this grovelling in the dust and naming each one by name and saying " I repent , waaaaaa (lots of tears)", then go say 40 hail mary's nonsense.
You say it's risky but realise that's how Jesus taught us to pray. A simple one line "forgive us our sins". None of this grovelling in the dust and naming each one by name and saying " I repent , waaaaaa (lots of tears)", then go say 40 hail mary's nonsense.
C
I'm not saying that the Lord's prayer is wrong and I believe in an attitude of repentence at all times. One of the sacrifices in the Law was for the unknown sins. I believe that our unremembered sins were placed on Him, the OT sacrifice being the type. What is risky is the theology that says that there is no grace between repentences or no grace for those subtle things that creep into our lives prior to God revealing it. Without this grace, repentence becomes a matter of wroks, just saying a little prayer once a day, going through the motions. That's what concerns me.
S
You have told me on more than one occasion that I do not study. You should study the occasions that involve repentance and you might come to the conclusion that repentance has more to do with the Jews and their unbelief about Christ being the Son of God Messiah then it does about the Gentiles and their salvation by grace. Even in the verse you quote, 'repentance AND remission of sins will be preached. In Acts 5:31. '...to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. Here repentance is a gift to Israel. Do your own study and come to your own conclusions. We are still to preach Christ and Him crucified. If you want to preach repentance, go right ahead. Just remember that the goodness of God (His grace and mercy) is what leads men to repentance / Rom 2:4. That goodness is that Christ was crucified and shed His blood for the remission of sins / Mt 26:28.
Rom 3:23-26 '23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
Do you see repentance having anything to do with God declaring His righteousness? I don't and if you do, you have a problem proving all things.
Rom 3:23-26 '23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
Do you see repentance having anything to do with God declaring His righteousness? I don't and if you do, you have a problem proving all things.
Shad, it says the message about " repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations". All nations, not just Jews. The message of repentance and forgivenses of sins is to be preached, not just the crucifixion as you claimed.
Not only have you indicated that preaching about the cross and repentance is somehow mutually exclusive? You now claim that repentance is more relevant for the Jews than the Gentiles? You said:
You seem to be saying that repentance is not to be preached, but only Christ and Him crucified, which is really really strange doctrine IMO, not to mention your statements about repentance being more relevant for Jews, that is crazy.
Not only have you indicated that preaching about the cross and repentance is somehow mutually exclusive? You now claim that repentance is more relevant for the Jews than the Gentiles? You said:
You seem to be saying that repentance is not to be preached, but only Christ and Him crucified, which is really really strange doctrine IMO, not to mention your statements about repentance being more relevant for Jews, that is crazy.
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S
It is crazy to you because that is what you think about repentance. You can't believe in your heart that God declares His righteousness to the believing sinner, by grace, without any repentance of sin. God wants us, as sinners, to focus on Christ and what he did to sin and not on our repentance of sin. Believing in Christ makes me righteous not repenting of sin . The Jews were God's elect and client nation and they rebelled and disobeyed and lived in unbelief and were scattered to every nation. If anyone needs to repent and go back to God from their backslidden state, its the Jews not the Gentiles.
God gave the Jews everything they needed and they rebelled but even in Rom 11:26 God is going to be the one who turns away ungodliness from Jacob and they will be saved. We obtained mercy through their unbelief that we might believe and be saved. And if you read verse 29 in the context of Romans 11 you will see that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. That's the gift of grace, the gift of righteousness, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life and the gift of His Son who called us according to His grace without repentance.
Are you going to take that out of context and go to some commentary that interprets that in some abstract way to suit your belief system?
God gave the Jews everything they needed and they rebelled but even in Rom 11:26 God is going to be the one who turns away ungodliness from Jacob and they will be saved. We obtained mercy through their unbelief that we might believe and be saved. And if you read verse 29 in the context of Romans 11 you will see that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. That's the gift of grace, the gift of righteousness, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life and the gift of His Son who called us according to His grace without repentance.
Are you going to take that out of context and go to some commentary that interprets that in some abstract way to suit your belief system?
C
I have to disagree on this. Part of the beleiving into Christ (as the Greek puts it) is genuine repentence of sin. The Bible speaks of a repentance that leads to salvation (doesn't cause it but leads to it) and a repentence that does not...
I have to disagree whith you. the scripture speak of a repentance that leads to salvation (and one that doesn't). Part of believing in Christ is putting your faith in his vicarious death. How can this be so without repentence.
I have to disagree whith you. the scripture speak of a repentance that leads to salvation (and one that doesn't). Part of believing in Christ is putting your faith in his vicarious death. How can this be so without repentence.
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S
His vicarious substitutionary death means he was our substitute and our scapegoat, He bore ours sins upon His body and took our place and crucified those sins through His death, so that all we have to do is believe upon what He did. We don't repent of our sin that Jesus Christ has transferred to His own body and destroyed through death. We just believe that Christ put away all our sin. If we don't believe then we are not saved nor do we have the life of the Son in us. He that believeth on the Son has life and he that believeth not has not life / John 3:36. Not any form of the word repentance or repent is mentioned here or in the entire gospel of John. Man believes unto righteousness in his heart by faith / Rom 4:5, 10:10.
Read Romans chapters 3 & 4 over and over until you get it down and in your heart and it gives you wisdom and light to walk in.
Read Romans chapters 3 & 4 over and over until you get it down and in your heart and it gives you wisdom and light to walk in.
C
Nice definitions, but not to the point. As I understand, your theology is only based upon John? As for Romans, how about Romans 12:2. Transformation of your mind. Romans 2: 4 The goodness of God leading you to repentance. and then, of course there are the other three gospels, the preaching in Acts, and the rest of Pauline theology. John, by the way, used repentence extensively in Revelation particularly in his teaching to the churches.
Thank you for your recommended reading. I will wait until I get to know you further before returning the favor.
Thank you for your recommended reading. I will wait until I get to know you further before returning the favor.
Shad I could post numerous scriptures that show repentance as part of, and a very important part of the equation. You see, even to go from a non-believer to a believer, you must have repented. Repentance cannot be taken out of the equation. It means to simply change your mind about something, to turn to God is by definition, repentance. To turn from sin, is repentance. To go from not praying to praying, is repentance.
I consult commentaries because I am humble enough to admit I don't have the answers from my own private reading of scripture, particularly on difficult matters. Here's what Barnes has to say, and I highlight in bold a very important statement which counter-argues what you said:
Without repentance - This does not refer to man, but to God. It does not mean that God confers his favors on man without his exercising repentance, but that God does not repent, or change, in his purposes of bestowing his gifts on man. What he promises he will fulfil; what he purposes to do, he will not change from or repent of. As he made promises to the fathers, he will not repent of them, and will not depart from them; they shall all be fulfilled; and thus it was certain that the ancient people of God, though many of them had become rebellious, and had been cast off, should not be forgotten and abandoned. This is a general proposition respecting God, and one repeatedly made of him in the Scriptures; see Num_23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he not said, and shall he not do it? hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Eze_24:14; 1Sa_15:29; Psa_89:35-36; Tit_1:2; Heb_6:18; Jam_1:17.
So in light of what this trained theologian says, you must admit you have taken that verse out of context. The funny thing is most of what people disagree with me about in here, including yourself, I have taken from reliable protestant theological sources from the past hundred or so years. That you disagree with it shows how far Christianity has declined even further into deception since the reformation. The guy I quoted from above was an American presbyterian minister and theologian who lived in the 17-1800's. But you treat my views as if I am quoting from Mormons or Catholics.
I consult commentaries because I am humble enough to admit I don't have the answers from my own private reading of scripture, particularly on difficult matters. Here's what Barnes has to say, and I highlight in bold a very important statement which counter-argues what you said:
Without repentance - This does not refer to man, but to God. It does not mean that God confers his favors on man without his exercising repentance, but that God does not repent, or change, in his purposes of bestowing his gifts on man. What he promises he will fulfil; what he purposes to do, he will not change from or repent of. As he made promises to the fathers, he will not repent of them, and will not depart from them; they shall all be fulfilled; and thus it was certain that the ancient people of God, though many of them had become rebellious, and had been cast off, should not be forgotten and abandoned. This is a general proposition respecting God, and one repeatedly made of him in the Scriptures; see Num_23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he not said, and shall he not do it? hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Eze_24:14; 1Sa_15:29; Psa_89:35-36; Tit_1:2; Heb_6:18; Jam_1:17.
So in light of what this trained theologian says, you must admit you have taken that verse out of context. The funny thing is most of what people disagree with me about in here, including yourself, I have taken from reliable protestant theological sources from the past hundred or so years. That you disagree with it shows how far Christianity has declined even further into deception since the reformation. The guy I quoted from above was an American presbyterian minister and theologian who lived in the 17-1800's. But you treat my views as if I am quoting from Mormons or Catholics.
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C
Actually the word repentence has three meanings that revolve around a single root meaning, that root meaning being "a literal (physical) change in direction" which implies that in order for it to work some form of action must be taken.
Essentially biblical repentence means more than just changing your mind. It literally means to change the direction of the life inwhich you have been living in both thought and deed.
Essentially biblical repentence means more than just changing your mind. It literally means to change the direction of the life inwhich you have been living in both thought and deed.
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