God Vs. Moses-THE TRUTH Part 1

Truth2010 · Feb 2, 2009

Ok, there is this HUGE misunderstanding as to the 10 Commandments and the Law of Moses... Here are the scriptures to clear it up..

Ok..God came down from Heaven and literally SPOKE to the people of Israel the 10 Commandments.

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai." Exodus19: 10-11

God makes it known to Moses that He is descending from heaven unto the mountain on the 3rd day.. and to go tell the Israelites to get ready.

"And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly" Ex19:18

God Himself has descended unto the Mountain..

"And God spake all these words, saying,.." Ex 20

Now the Lord is speaking the 10 Commandments to the pple..

" These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. " Deut 5:22

God spoke the commandments and wrote them...

"And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; 24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath showed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. 25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. 26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it." Deut 5:23-27

The voice of God terrified the Israelites to where they begged Moses to tell them the commandments instead of God...They felt like they were going to die from the sound of His voice.

And lastly..
"And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God." Ex 31:18

God Wrote the Commandments..

MahogonySnail · Feb 2, 2009

*ahem*

Absolutely correct. And since I'm not an Israelite I don't live by the Law of Moses. I understand this quite well.

Truth2010 · Feb 2, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Wow.. Mahogony.. Either you are just choosing to believe a lie or you are serioulsy in need of an in depth Bible study.. I hope the latter...

You said it yourself... LAW OF MOSES...if you read carefully, you can clearly see that it is not MOSES who is speaking, but indeed God Himself.. wow.

Where there is no law, then there is no transgression... according to the Bible.. so its ok for you to go kill someone or lie or whatever is written in the 10 and not be held accountable..Right? That is exactly what you are saying.

MahogonySnail · Feb 3, 2009

If your profile is correct that you were saved in 2009. Hardly enough time to be telling others what is the truth, particularly when much of it is wrong.

Yes, God speaking to Moses. I believe "law of Moses" is what it is referred to in the scriptures and in Judaism, the Law of Moses includes the moral law.

Not at all. Like Paul said:
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

You don't seem to understand God's grace if you need the stone tablets to know what's right and wrong, as a christian. Because the Law of God should be written on your heart.

Truth2010 · Feb 3, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Tell me this.. what is the law that written on our hearts? Do you know? Please list what this law is that we are to follow.. with scripture of course..

As far as how long I have been a Christian does not matter...The truth is the truth is the truth is the truth.. and Thank God it was given to me. I am just trying to share it just like it was shared with me.

Again you did not READ at all! You have selective reading.. The scripture CLEARLY says that God spake unto the ASSEMBLY. Not to Moses. WOW!

And if I am wrong, show me that I am... you have not provided ANYTHING to show otherwise. You are not rightly dividing the scriptures.. picking out verses that you know nothing about and trying to make them fit your argument. That is wicked..

MahogonySnail · Feb 3, 2009

The point is, there is no list, there is no stone tablets, they are written on our hearts, our minds, our conscience. We don't live by the letter of the law, but by the Spirit (2 Co 3:6). If you understood and lived that, you would have no need for anyone to explain it to you.

Here is what it says the commandments are that we need to obey:

1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Who shared it with you?
The bible says the truth is Jesus (John 14:6).

Yes, to the assembly, to the Israelites. I'm a Gentile. Are you an Israelite?

Somehow I don't think you'd be open to listening to any correction lol.
The point is, unlike you I don't need to mis-quote verses which apply to Israelites, to Gentiles saying how everyone is wrong not keeping the Sabbath. I have the understanding by God's grace of what Christ's sacrifice means and that we live by the law of Christ by the Spirit not the letter of the law. There's two covenants - old and new, you can choose which one you want to follow, but be aware that one leads to hell (by the law no one will be justified) and the other leads to heaven.

Truth2010 · Feb 3, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES!! LOL..What is the other law? You are speaking from the top of your head and not the word.. I am sorry that I do not take your word for it..Sorry..
But your blood be upon your own head.. I tried showing you but you choose darkness.. again the RIGHTEOUS ARE THOSE THAT OBEY THE LAW.. Ignore it if you want. God Bless you and if you want to continue this, I can provide scriptures to disprove your falsehood.

MahogonySnail · Feb 3, 2009

Where are the scriptures? I posted one. Right there in 1 John 3. Why do you ignore it ?

The righteous are those who believe in Christ.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.

I don't know who you are, but if your only saved in 2009 , you are no one to be saying such things about choosing darkness etc, may Christ rebuke you.

Aside from your false doctrine your arrogance alone convinces me you are a law-keeping Pharisee not a christian who has tasted God's grace and freedom from the law. And whoever it was who told you this "truth", is twice as much a sinner for leading you astray.

Truth2010 · Feb 3, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

I didnt ignore that scripture..that is a given! I completely agree with it, but that is not all that is written now is it? No it is not.. Therefore, we cannot ignore the rest of the Bible.. Precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. You are the one however that are refusing the verses that I have given you.

As far as works, we do need both faith and works..because wthout each other, they both are dead. What separates us from the demons? They already believe in God, they fell from heaven remember? They have a first hand account of God and heaven.. But because they believe in God, will they be saved? Of course not! Why? They believe in God but their WORKS are of evil and of the Devil. Same goes for us.. We believe in God but are our works OF God? How will I know that you are a Christian? By what you do... your works.. If you are out fornicating, lying,stealing, etc..then your works dnt match up with your faith. By what you do shows who you are working for... either God or the devil.. See this scripture.. "What does it profit, my brothers, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say to them, Depart in peace, be you warmed and filled; notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:14-20.

According to this verse, you need faith AND works. Please rightly divide Mahogony. What I have provided you is straight from the Bible. You can read for yourself.. If the scriptures are a lie.. then God help us all.

MahogonySnail · Feb 3, 2009

There's no buts about any of this. We are either under the law or under grace, not both at the same time. You can't understand God's grace if you live according to

"Precept upon precept, here a little, there a little"

which by the way was God's punishment:

Isa 28:13 But the Word of Jehovah was to them precept on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken and snared and taken.

Read Galatians, Romans, Hebrews, it's all there plain to see that we are under grace not the law.

I agree we need to show our faith by our works. But I also know that we aren't under the law but under grace (Gal 3).

No, you don't "need" faith and works. You need to show your faith by your works. There is a big difference. We are saved only by faith (shown by works), not by our own works in and of themselves.

Truth2010 · Feb 3, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Ok, tell me what is the works that we are to do to show our faith? Please use the scriptures..

Let me break it down-What is sin? Lets look at the Bible.. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

Now, one would ask, what law?

Also "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:21-23 Iniquity means lawlessness..

You notice "wonderful works"... I am sure these pple that are being described here are those that gave to the needy, those that went to church every week, cast out devils... but God turned them away.. Why? Because they were doers of Iniquity...(Lawlessness) we just read that sin is LAWLESSNESS...

Now according to scripture, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinth 14:33.. I should be able to know exactly what is sin and what is not sin by simply opening the Bible and finding this law that the scriptures is talking about.. Not guessing...

In Romans, Paul makes it very clear which law he is speaking of.."Now if you call yourself a Jew, and rely on the law, and boast about God, 18and know his will, and approve of what is best because you have been instructed in the law; 19and if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light to those in darkness, 20an instructor of ignorant people, and a teacher of infants because you have the full content of knowledge and truth in the law

Truth2010 · Feb 3, 2009

— 21as you teach others, do you fail to teach yourself? As you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22As you forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? As you abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23As you boast about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written, “God's name is being blasphemed among the gentiles because of you.”[1][ Romans 2:17-24.. Paul is saying to the teachers of the law, you know the truth and you are the light for the blind... BUT do you practice what you preach? Do you who teaches not to commit adultery, do you commit adultery? He is talking about the law...

Skip down to the next verse..."Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:19-20 Who are those under the law? Good question!

"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;" Romans 2:12.. Those who are under the law are those that break it.. If you are righteous (obey the commandments Romans 2:13) then you are no longer under the law because you are not sinning.

Through the law, we know what sin is.. If there is no law, then how do we know what sin is?

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:15

So if we are not to abide by a law, then that means we are not sinners..According to scripture..If it is not written that we are not to kill, then we can go kill and be sinless.. There is a law Mahogony.

Also, see this.. "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7 Emnity means hostile.. The Bible says the sinful mind of man cannot submit to God's law and is hostile to God. Look these scriptures over. I will provide more for you.. especially scriptures regarding grace.

MahogonySnail · Feb 3, 2009

Of course there is a law, the law of Christ.
Try reading the whole of Romans in context, instead of picking out selective verses.

MahogonySnail · Feb 3, 2009

Completely wrong. Obeying the commandments can never produce the righteousness that God requires. It is only by faith in Christ.

Php 3:9 and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but through the faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by faith,

Gal 3:21Is the Law then against the promises of God? Let it not be said! For if a law had been given which could have given life, indeed righteousness would have been out of Law.

Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith."

We are not under the law because we don't sin, (the fact is no one is without sin), but because the Law was only a trainer until Christ:

Gal 3:24 So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But faith coming, we are no longer under a trainer.

Truth2010 · Feb 3, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Again, show me what this law of Christ that you speak of? Romans is very clear as to sin, and the law, and the rightoues..

"He (Paul) speaks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, leading to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.
17And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people." 2 Peter 3:16-17 That is such a coincidence that the word of God mentions a LAWLESS pple AFTER warning Christians of those same pple who distort Paul's writings.. Because they are unstable and ignorant. Perhaps God knew the LAWLESS would try to teach others that they should be LAWLESS also and not abide by the law of God??? God foresees everything. Its to your own destruction that you twist the writings of Paul...

To say there is no law is saying that you can do what you want.. Which of coures makes no sense... Where in this law of Christ does it say...Do not bow to graven images? Or Do no take the Lord's name in vain? Or Do not have any other gods before me? The ONLY place that is written is in the 10 commandments which YOU say we no longer have to keep.. So I can do what I want to God then..Bow to images, take His name in vain, etc etc...but YOU there is a law of Christ which consists of what laws again? and where are the laws specified?

The law does not save you BUT it does show you what sin is! Withouth it, how are we to know we are sinning? You will be judged by the law if you are sinning against it... "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" Romans 2:12..

The 10 commandments...Shows you 10 Laws..if you break one of those laws.. you are a sinner.. Period..No need in going in circles.. The scriptures speak for themselves... I do not disagree with scriptures, I do however disagree with how you are trying to twist them to fit your own agenda.. which outside the will of God..

MahogonySnail · Feb 3, 2009

Truth your arrogance is amazing, I'm not twisting anything. You are so decieved you can't see where you are wrong much less listen to what other's say. This discussion is over.

Truth2010 · Feb 6, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Of course its over..

onwingsaseagles · Feb 6, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

You are not an Israelite? Then you do not belong to God at all. Ephesians 2:11-19 says all who come to Christ, Jew or Gentile, have become citizens of Israel.
Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Truth2010 · Feb 6, 2009

onwingsaseagles said:

You are not an Israelite? Then you do not belong to God at all. Ephesians 2:11-19 says all who come to Christ, Jew or Gentile, have become citizens of Israel.
Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Amen! It disturbs me how so many pple turn away from the Bible. They believe their pastors over Jesus our saviour.

onwingsaseagles · Feb 6, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

onwingsaseagles said:

Truth2010 said:

Yes it is very disturbing, sickening really.

God Vs. Moses-THE TRUTH Part 1

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