Calvinism Refuted
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S
While Satan's system of Calvinism may have some truths in it, nevertheless, it is still a system hatched from the Devil himself. Remember Satan mixes truth with error.
And the truth is this: anyone can get saved. God elects and predestines those who ALREADY in Christ.
God does not force anyone to believe on His Son. God simply chooses to save those who believe on His Son.
And when a person gets saved by trusting in Christ; that is when God then chooses to elect that person. Why? Because that person is in Christ.
And the truth is this: anyone can get saved. God elects and predestines those who ALREADY in Christ.
God does not force anyone to believe on His Son. God simply chooses to save those who believe on His Son.
And when a person gets saved by trusting in Christ; that is when God then chooses to elect that person. Why? Because that person is in Christ.
I point out one misconception, you believe we teach people are forced to believe. Nope, according to Ezekiel 36:26-27, God transforms us to want to believe, John 3 can allude to this as being born again. That's Irresistible grace in scripture for you. It does not teach you cannot resist God, rather that God overcomes our resistance. Please study the rest.
Individually from the OP to this post, I can already tell you have many misconceptions of what Calvinism is. You believe it's a mixed based truth, yet you don't really know it, you haven't really studied it.
I point out one misconception, you believe we teach people are forced to believe. Nope, according to Ezekiel 36:26-27, God transforms us to want to believe, John 3 can allude to this as being born again. That's Irresistible grace in scripture for you. It does not teach you cannot resist God, rather that God overcomes our resistance. Please study the rest.
I point out one misconception, you believe we teach people are forced to believe. Nope, according to Ezekiel 36:26-27, God transforms us to want to believe, John 3 can allude to this as being born again. That's Irresistible grace in scripture for you. It does not teach you cannot resist God, rather that God overcomes our resistance. Please study the rest.
This whole post sounds like nonsense, I don't even know what you are talking about.
If you will refute Calvinism, then you have to understand it.
The TULIP and the varieties of Calvinism.
Probably it would be better to have a thread on each of the 5 points.
I looked at the initial post and didn't see any proof against Calvinism, which makes me wonder if the threader knows the system???
The threader says: "do not fall for the wicked and satanic system of Calvinism where Calvinists are teaching that God has pre-ordanined some to damnation, while only electing and ordaning some to eternal life."
Double-predestination is not an essential to Calvinism. It is not one of the T U L I P.
I think the threader was intemperate. I see nothing satanic about Calvinism, but an attempt to understand God's Word in a difficult area, namely that of election and predestination, which are clearly taught in the Bible, if not clearly understood. I classify this under what Peter says in difficult to understand in Paul's writings, which are nonetheless scripture. I don't pretend to completely understand these doctrines.
The practical value of Calvinism is the humility it brings in realizing how little depends on us and how much on the Lord.
Now that is a toughy. If the elect were elect in eternity past, how can you become one? One really needs to meditate on Rom 9 a while, as for example,'
"for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
I fail to see how in this circumstance Esau could have become elect, since it happened before Esau was born. To be sure, the passage may not speak about salvation, but election to a position of blessing under the Abrahamic Covenant as mediated through Isaac to Jacob, bypassing Esau. Still it is election.
You could say that while you may not change your status in election, you can prove that you are elect by trusting Jesus as your Savior. If you trust Him, you will find out how you are elect.
Threader: "God's will is that ALL should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)."
That is true regardless of Calvinist or not, but then it seems necessary to postulate different layers of God's will, the sovereign unchangeable will, vs. the desire He has on some level for the salvation of all men (which won't happen).
Unfortunately the threader mostly just pontificated, instead of proving from the Bible. And that is the strength of Calvinism, close exegesis of just what the Bible says. We must go with the Bible even when it seems to outrage our intuitive sense of fairness. Had I written the Bible, no one would go to Hell; at the worst sinners would be annihilated -- but I didn't write the Bible, and I am not free to concoct my own plan of the ages.
I think this is the POV that only Christ is elect, and then believers become elect by incorporation into Him, like believers are said to have died on the cross and been raised with Christ. But is that the plain meaning of scripture? Unfortunately the threader gave no scriptural proof. Maybe he has down thread where I have not yet looked.
I came to this thread wanting to see if anyone had any scriptural proof of anything, not to read tirades and firing cannon balls at canary birds.
Straw man attack. Calvinists don't say they have an excuse. One POV is that no one has any excuse and that the gospel is offered to everyone as whosoever will. But the Lord knowing that all we depraved wretches would all be whosoever won'ts -- then in grace He proceeded to regenerate some anyway via efficacious grace; Him being responsible for their faith. But the reason why He chose some is not revealed. I mean imagine if the Lord gave men free will by common grace to choose Christ and enabled them all to believe if they so chose; but then absolutely no one chose Christ as Savior. All refused on free will the offer. So then He intervened lest no one at all be saved? I just put this out as a hypothesis to consider.
You give no scripture; and I admit that at this point I am not giving much either, but thinking outloud. However, what you posted above does not contradict Calvinism, believe it or not. You can believe all the TULIP and also what you posted above. The Calvinist could say, "Yes, and if God had not given efficacious grace to His elect, they would all be in that pot. Everyone made damning decisions; all chose and decided to reject Christ, until God intervened for the elect with grace."
What is dumb is to get dogmatic without studying carefully the scripture on the topic. One thing Calvinism is not, is dumb. Judgment and salvation are two different things. Judgment is always by works, so far as I know; but salvation is always by grace. For Calvinism, all men are guilty as described in Romans 1-2; there is none who seeks God, no not one. People are judged for their sins.
But there are degrees of judgment based on how much knowledge the sinner had.
I am sure than many Calvinists were basically guided by the KJV. But the KJV is not absolutely God's Word, and it is satanic to claim that. You may not exalt a human translation to the level of the original language text. Do you suppose that from the 1st Century AD until 1611, no one had the Word of God? Do you realize that our Pilgrim Fathers in the USA preferred the Geneva Bible to that newcomer modernist KJV?
I hope you gave some Bible proof for your vociferations down thread. I shall take a look. I could stand some improvement in my understanding of the TULIP (nor non-TULIP), election, and predestination.
The TULIP and the varieties of Calvinism.
Probably it would be better to have a thread on each of the 5 points.
I looked at the initial post and didn't see any proof against Calvinism, which makes me wonder if the threader knows the system???
The threader says: "do not fall for the wicked and satanic system of Calvinism where Calvinists are teaching that God has pre-ordanined some to damnation, while only electing and ordaning some to eternal life."
Double-predestination is not an essential to Calvinism. It is not one of the T U L I P.
I think the threader was intemperate. I see nothing satanic about Calvinism, but an attempt to understand God's Word in a difficult area, namely that of election and predestination, which are clearly taught in the Bible, if not clearly understood. I classify this under what Peter says in difficult to understand in Paul's writings, which are nonetheless scripture. I don't pretend to completely understand these doctrines.
The practical value of Calvinism is the humility it brings in realizing how little depends on us and how much on the Lord.
Anyone can become part of the elect. "
"for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
I fail to see how in this circumstance Esau could have become elect, since it happened before Esau was born. To be sure, the passage may not speak about salvation, but election to a position of blessing under the Abrahamic Covenant as mediated through Isaac to Jacob, bypassing Esau. Still it is election.
You could say that while you may not change your status in election, you can prove that you are elect by trusting Jesus as your Savior. If you trust Him, you will find out how you are elect.
Threader: "God's will is that ALL should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)."
That is true regardless of Calvinist or not, but then it seems necessary to postulate different layers of God's will, the sovereign unchangeable will, vs. the desire He has on some level for the salvation of all men (which won't happen).
Unfortunately the threader mostly just pontificated, instead of proving from the Bible. And that is the strength of Calvinism, close exegesis of just what the Bible says. We must go with the Bible even when it seems to outrage our intuitive sense of fairness. Had I written the Bible, no one would go to Hell; at the worst sinners would be annihilated -- but I didn't write the Bible, and I am not free to concoct my own plan of the ages.
God chooses to elect those who are in Christ.
I think this is the POV that only Christ is elect, and then believers become elect by incorporation into Him, like believers are said to have died on the cross and been raised with Christ. But is that the plain meaning of scripture? Unfortunately the threader gave no scriptural proof. Maybe he has down thread where I have not yet looked.
I came to this thread wanting to see if anyone had any scriptural proof of anything, not to read tirades and firing cannon balls at canary birds.
No lost person at the Great White Throne Judgment will be without excuse.
Every single damned and lost person will know that they COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED. But that by their own wicked rebellion and refusal to believe on and trust the Lord Jesus Christ is, they will know that it was this decision of theirs that damned them. They will know that they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all of Eternity because they chose and decided to reject the Lord Jesus Christ.
You give no scripture; and I admit that at this point I am not giving much either, but thinking outloud. However, what you posted above does not contradict Calvinism, believe it or not. You can believe all the TULIP and also what you posted above. The Calvinist could say, "Yes, and if God had not given efficacious grace to His elect, they would all be in that pot. Everyone made damning decisions; all chose and decided to reject Christ, until God intervened for the elect with grace."
And the very fact that there is a Judgment also refutes the dumb system of Calvinism. I mean why judge someone if he never had a change to get saved???
What is dumb is to get dogmatic without studying carefully the scripture on the topic. One thing Calvinism is not, is dumb. Judgment and salvation are two different things. Judgment is always by works, so far as I know; but salvation is always by grace. For Calvinism, all men are guilty as described in Romans 1-2; there is none who seeks God, no not one. People are judged for their sins.
But there are degrees of judgment based on how much knowledge the sinner had.
start believing God's word, the Authorized King James Holy Bible.
I hope you gave some Bible proof for your vociferations down thread. I shall take a look. I could stand some improvement in my understanding of the TULIP (nor non-TULIP), election, and predestination.
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S
No Calvinist does. "For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 The Calvinist erroneously thinks he is an exception regarding that law, but he isn't.
A Calvinist can't surrender. For the Calvinist judges that it is everyone else who is totally depraved, but he has only judged himself by the measure he has used.
A Calvinist realizes that He was totally depraved, and that the Lord in grace brought him into salvation. It is a very humbling interpretation of scripture.
The proud person is the one who imagines he will be saved by his good works.
I can almost guarantee that there are a few deceptions wormed into every denomination by the adversary...but to call one denomination out as Satanic is a little unfair.
The fact of the matter is, Christ's body was prophesied to be broken for the salvation of many.
Again, the body of Christ was broken (into many denominations) for the salvation of many.
The fact of the matter is, Christ's body was prophesied to be broken for the salvation of many.
Again, the body of Christ was broken (into many denominations) for the salvation of many.
That is a remarkable eisegesis. I can't believe you change a passage about Christ's death on the cross into something about denominations.
[/quote]Calvinism is but one of a multitude of denominations[/quote]
You can call it a movement, but a denomination? There are different denominations with more or less Calvinism in them. Presbyterians used to be Calvinists; of course today mainline denominations have gone into unbelief and humanism. There still are Presbyterian denominations that are Calvinist, a variety of denominations.
Of course we look forward to unity in Christ some day,
Why are the doctrines of little lord Johnny Calvin horrible?
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 NIV To any Calvinist that man's statement is the most reprehensible idea that could has ever been thought of much more that it is has been written in the scriptures. Every Calvinist to be a Calvinist is totally depraved against that apostle's expressed idea of the only Way anyone can be declared righteous by God.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 NIV To any Calvinist that man's statement is the most reprehensible idea that could has ever been thought of much more that it is has been written in the scriptures. Every Calvinist to be a Calvinist is totally depraved against that apostle's expressed idea of the only Way anyone can be declared righteous by God.
"depravity" "total depravity" are terms used in the scripture to ONLY describe false teachers. Those terms are not descriptive of mankind in general according to the scripture. 'i won't say 'i'm a Calvanist" or i'm an ------------"for that matter, but total depravity, i'm 100% on board with." Is nothing other than a Calvanist describing himself no matter what he says he isn't. It only takes one little pinch of leaven to destroy the whole lump.
"For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13, and you are 100% opposed against that apostle's doctrine of salvation also.
"For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13, and you are 100% opposed against that apostle's doctrine of salvation also.
Just how does Paul describe men in general in Romans 1-2, cxjonz?
they beez pretty good boys?
They look a tad on the depraved side to me there.
¿Does any know the difference between Augustine and Calvin when it comes to predestination?
First of all, I have no interest in debating you, and will not even save this thread to return to it.
I will however in this one post share a few things that I have learned over the 35 years that I have been a born again Christian.
Proverbs 6:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The LORD hates six things; in fact, seven are detestable to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] arrogant eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] a heart that plots wicked schemes, feet eager to run to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] a lying witness who gives false testimony, and one who stirs up trouble among brothers.
1 John 4:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For the person who does not love his brother he has seen, cannot love the God he has not seen.
1. It is SIN to call a weaker brother's beliefs OR stronger brother's beliefs, Satanic, just because you do not agree with all of them. ANYONE who seriously believes in the Holy Trinity, including the Deity of Christ, and who has received Jesus Christ as LORD, which means MASTER; most certainly is a CHRISTIAN, no matter what denomination he or she belongs to. So you do not agree with everything they teach, IF THEY BELIEVE IN THE SAME CORE OF BELIEFS TAUGHT BY ALL MAINLINE CHRISTIANITY CHURCHES THEY STILL ARE CHRISTIANS. How many of your beliefs are based on misinformation, false doctrines, and misinterpretations? I guess we will find out when the LORD COMES.
2. MOST of the those who claim to be anti-Calvinists, especially those who verbally trash their beliefs, DO NOT KNOW A HILL OF BEANS ABOUT WHAT THEY TRULY BELIEVE. Yet they spew false statements and half truths about their beliefs, speaking as if they are doing GOD a favor by spreading the lies that were taught to them. Denominational bigotry is a sin, no matter what form it takes.
3. I am NOT a Calvinist, because I only believe in 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism and thus they would disown me; and the Armenians would disown me too, because I do believe 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism. I guess I will just have to be satisfied with being labeled a CHRISTIAN. I suspect most of us posting here would agree.
Philippians 4:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
2 Peter 3:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
2 Timothy 2:23-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
I will however in this one post share a few things that I have learned over the 35 years that I have been a born again Christian.
Proverbs 6:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The LORD hates six things; in fact, seven are detestable to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] arrogant eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] a heart that plots wicked schemes, feet eager to run to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] a lying witness who gives false testimony, and one who stirs up trouble among brothers.
1 John 4:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For the person who does not love his brother he has seen, cannot love the God he has not seen.
1. It is SIN to call a weaker brother's beliefs OR stronger brother's beliefs, Satanic, just because you do not agree with all of them. ANYONE who seriously believes in the Holy Trinity, including the Deity of Christ, and who has received Jesus Christ as LORD, which means MASTER; most certainly is a CHRISTIAN, no matter what denomination he or she belongs to. So you do not agree with everything they teach, IF THEY BELIEVE IN THE SAME CORE OF BELIEFS TAUGHT BY ALL MAINLINE CHRISTIANITY CHURCHES THEY STILL ARE CHRISTIANS. How many of your beliefs are based on misinformation, false doctrines, and misinterpretations? I guess we will find out when the LORD COMES.
2. MOST of the those who claim to be anti-Calvinists, especially those who verbally trash their beliefs, DO NOT KNOW A HILL OF BEANS ABOUT WHAT THEY TRULY BELIEVE. Yet they spew false statements and half truths about their beliefs, speaking as if they are doing GOD a favor by spreading the lies that were taught to them. Denominational bigotry is a sin, no matter what form it takes.
3. I am NOT a Calvinist, because I only believe in 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism and thus they would disown me; and the Armenians would disown me too, because I do believe 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism. I guess I will just have to be satisfied with being labeled a CHRISTIAN. I suspect most of us posting here would agree.
Philippians 4:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
2 Peter 3:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
2 Timothy 2:23-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
I agree with much of the general gist above. However you opine: "IF THEY BELIEVE IN THE SAME CORE OF BELIEFS TAUGHT BY ALL MAINLINE CHRISTIANITY CHURCHES THEY STILL ARE CHRISTIANS."
I think you would have been mostly right in that statement in 1900, but especially after WWI there was a general doctrinal apostasy in the mainline denominations. I was raised in one as a child where everything was debatable. Even the Son of God could be affirmed on the basis that you and I and everyone are sons of God.
IMHO, nowadays most of the main line denominations agree in being humanistic and denying the basics of the faith.
That I haven't studied the paradigm of Calvinism is grave misconception on your part. For the grace of God is the FACT that a change of the law was made by adding a word to the law relative to the sin of murdering Jesus Christ. No Calvinist will ever obey the Acts 2:38 command because he has been lead to believe the falsehood that he does not have to.
It has been a long while since I read Augustine. My Church History prof claimed that Calvin quoted Augustine like verbatim, and I think Calvin won debates by doing it. To me Augustine is a really mixed bag theologically, at least from our modern perspective. As I understood him he denied eternal security while being into election. I think that Aug after having been a big fornicator before conversion, turned towards endorsing ascetism and thinking of sex itself as sinful. I think he can also be blamed largely for Amillennialism. But I am no expert on the old boy.