Misconceptions of Calvinism

[gregfl]

rom 9 teaches that God hates people before they are born? you better think twice about that.if thats not what its saying,and i dont think it is,thats seems to me to be blasphemy.you really should think about it.
Romans 9, Calvinism, Traditionalism (by David R. Brumbelow)

Analysis of Romans 9 and Calvinistic Arguments

WHY I’M NOT A CALVINIST (part one): Romans 9 | Jack Hammer

Romans 9 and Predestination

Where Calvinism Gets Romans 9 Wrong: Prerogative Equals Unconditionality | Arminian Perspectives

 

[Elin]

I don't know how we got on 'the all powerful' bit, I don't believe I ever brought up that issue.
The point of justice is closer to home.
As the song says and as you quoted in Romans' because He is God and that is just the way it is.' 'He is the potter we are the clay'...all true.
Still it doesn't attempt at a justification except God is God. It essentially leaves the question open, "How is it fair, that God picks some and not others' and judges guilty the one's He doesn't elect?

"Fair" is nebulous.
"Justice" is not.
Justice = to give one his due, what he is owed, has a right to.

God owes, is obligated to give, and mankind has a right to, nothing but justice.
And in justice, God owes condemnation on all sin,
as did the Mosiac law (Dt 27:26), which was its purpose to show (Gal 3:10).

Therefore, those who receive condemnation have not been treated unjustly.
God has given them what he owes them.
They have no claim against God that he owes them anything more (Ro 11:35).

It's not about the nebulous notion of fairness, it's about the Biblical notion of justice.[/QUOTE]

 

[Simona25]

God owes, is obligated to give,

...by whom?

 

[crossnote]

"Fair" is nebulous.
"Justice" is not.
Justice = to give one his due, what he is owed, has a right to.

God owes, is obligated to give, and mankind has a right to, nothing but justice.
And in justice, God owes condemnation on all sin,
as did the Mosiac law (Dt 27:26), which was its purpose to show (Gal 3:10).

Therefore, those who receive condemnation have not been treated unjustly.
God has given them what he owes them.
They have no claim against God that he owes them anything more (Ro 11:35).

It's not about the nebulous notion of fairness, it's about the Biblical notion of justice.

So two men are going over a waterfall due to their own fault. God saves one and not the other, then judges guilty the one He did not save?
Sounds a little quirky to me.

 

[Grandpa]

I don't know how we got on 'the all powerful' bit, I don't believe I ever brought up that issue.
The point of justice is closer to home.
As the song says and as you quoted in Romans' because He is God and that is just the way it is.' 'He is the potter we are the clay'...all true.
Still it doesn't attempt at a justification except God is God. It essentially leaves the question open, "How is it fair, that God picks some and not others' and judges guilty the one's He doesn't elect?
The Calvinist response should 'be we don't know why'...but instead they continue piling up attempted justifications for their system.

That is the answer. We don't know why. There was nothing in us for Him to choose us. If we don't know why He chose us we don't know why He chose anyone.

Not only do we not know why we don't know who either. So preaching the gospel still goes to all, hoping that some (all) will respond.

I would say Calvinism is not a system. Just an attempt at a description of what we mostly don't understand.

You can say that the description is incomplete. I have no problem with that. But to reject the description in its entirety is to reject what the bible plainly states.

 

[Grandpa]

Relative to the OP is its egregious misconception that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is NOT an offense of the written code of law. His death was caused by committing the sin of murder against him. Then upon his ascension back to heaven and his installation according to the promise made only to him "You are a priest forever" the LAW was also changed by adding one word to it. Salvation is therefore predicated upon the faith to OBEY the LAW which has been added or commit the sin by law that is not forgivable. The doctrine of salvation relative to Calvinism is the reverse of that lawful protocol. For it shifts the responsibility of resolving the sin of the Lord's murder by the faith of individual obedience of God to God being the responsible agent for prior election of who is or is not saved. There is NOT any accurate teaching of the Way God has by the sin of his only begotten son's murder perfected for salvation within any doctrine of "Reformed Theology".

Maybe its your philosophy that must change.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Was it your repentance that will cause you to enter into the Kingdom of God, or His Spirit?

 

[cxjonz]

"God ca do what ever He wants too,.!" Yes He can..........not choose any Calvinist.

 

[notuptome]

Every man has a responsibility to choose. When man fell in the garden he received the knowledge of good and evil. It is this knowledge that makes it mans responsibility to choose. We are accountable for our transgressions because we are able to distinguish between right and wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[cxjonz]

Maybe its your philosophy that must change.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Was it your repentance that will cause you to enter into the Kingdom of God, or His Spirit?

The gift of God's spirit is only granted to the individuals who have the faith to resolve the factorial of guilt associated to the Lord's murder which was caused by bloodshed. To resolve this issue of residual guilt it is by the faith of obeying the law which has been added. It was the sin of murder to crucify Jesus Christ and it became a greater sin by adding an addition to the law not have the faith to repent of it. All offenses of the written code are forgivable, however the law that has been added if not obeyed is an unforgivable infraction of a law. James refers to this fact by stating that it only requires one infraction of the law to be guilty of disobeying all of it. The law he references that has this outcome is the word that has been added to the law.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 There are no exceptions.

 

[Grandpa]

The gift of God's spirit is only granted to the individuals who have the faith to resolve the factorial of guilt associated to the Lord's murder which was caused by bloodshed. To resolve this issue of residual guilt it is by the faith of obeying the law which has been added. It was the sin of murder to crucify Jesus Christ and it became a greater sin by adding an addition to the law not have the faith to repent of it. All offenses of the written code are forgivable, however the law that has been added if not obeyed is an unforgivable infraction of a law. James refers to this fact by stating that it only requires one infraction of the law to be guilty of disobeying all of it. The law he references that has this outcome is the word that has been added to the law.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 There are no exceptions.

What would be the reason to cause someone who is already obeying to obey?

Is it your repentance and obedience that causes you to enter into the Kingdom of God, or His Spirit?

Is the Holy Spirit a gift that we don't earn or is it one that God owes us for our "obedience"?

It should be pretty easy to work this out if you have a decent bible handy...

 

[cxjonz]

What would be the reason to cause someone who is already obeying to obey?

Is it your repentance and obedience that causes you to enter into the Kingdom of God, or His Spirit?

Is the Holy Spirit a gift that we don't earn or is it one that God owes us for our "obedience"?

It should be pretty easy to work this out if you have a decent bible handy...

Look sport. You might be a grand pa. But I'll have ten great grand children to my credit soon. You wanna play one up man ship with me be my guest. But if you are going to contest what I've said where is your suborning scripture that counters what I've already said? huh?

 

[Elin]

Obligated...by whom?

By his own righteous and just character.

As God, he is always righteous, just and good in all he does.
If he does it, then it is good.

 

[chubbena]

I did. Calvinism, no matter the misconceptions, denies free will in any true sense of the word. This leaves only one being responsible for anything by sheer logic, and that is God.

And you will probably disagree with Jonathan Edwards' On The Freedom Of The Will in which he explained what free will truly is. In short, free will is one's decision does not depend on or result in consequences. And I believe Calvin based on this definition of free will to write Institutes of the Christian Religion.
God is the only one with free will, everybody else has freedom to choose but must face consequences.

 

[Simona25]

By his own righteous and just character.

As God, he is always righteous, just and good in all he does.
If he does it, then it is good.

Isn't He free?

 

[Elin]

So two men are going over a waterfall due to their own fault.
God saves one and not the other, then judges guilty the one He did not save?
Sounds a little quirky to me.

I'm sorry you find God's word quirky.

You darken God's counsel with words without knowledge.

So you are saying that God's answer to your question:

--"Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" (Ro 9:20)
Does not the potter have the right to form the clay as he chooses? (Ro 9:21)
(Isa 45:11-12; Job 40:2)--

is inadequate and quirky (Job 38:3--41:34).

a) Therefore, you call God to the bar of your reason to give an account of his justice. . .
to justify it to you. . .or he can be God no longer.

That's called turning things upside down as if the potter were thought to be the clay.

b) And you require others to justify God to you.

It is no one's job to justify God to anyone.
It is your job to receive his answer to your question.
And when he then makes an end to teaching,
it is your job to make an end to learning.

It is your job to agree with God,
It is not God's job to make himself agreeable to you.

Nor is it anyone's job to overcome your objection to God's sovereignty.

c) And then you present an analogy which misrepresents God's justice and mercy.

Two men are going to hell because they are guilty of, and justly condemned for, law breaking.
not because they become guilty after their just condemnation.
God justly judged both men guilty of law breaking.

Then God mercifully saves one of the guilty men from his earned and just condemnation,
while leaving the other in his just condemnation.

God has not denied the unsaved what he owes them and what they have a right to.
They have been given what they are due (Mt 20:13), and have no grounds for
complaint (Mt 20:14), for they cannot claim title to anything more.

God has the right to do as he pleases, as long as no one is denied the justice
to which he is entitled.
That he chooses to give some more than he owes them is his prerogative as God,
for he defines himself in Scripture thusly:
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion (Ex 33:19)."
--Ro 9:15

Therefore, it does not depend on anything but the sovereignty of God (Ro 9:16).

He's God. . .and you're not.

 

[Elin]

Isn't He free?

Freedom in the Bible does not mean the ability to do evil.
That is slavery (Jn 8:34, 36).

Freedom in the Bible is the ability to love and obey God.

Likewise, God's freedom does not mean he is free to deny himself, or his character, or his truth, or anything that is his essence.

He would no longer be God if he did.

 

[Simona25]

Likewise, God's freedom does not mean he is free to deny himself, or his character, or his truth, or anything that is his essence.

He would no longer be God if he did.

God is free and He's also free from the definitions with which you lock Him in your mental prison. Also, if you want to understand something about God's justice, read the parable of the workers in the vineyard or the parable of the prodigal son. I don't see God acting justly towards the workers or the prodigal son, do you?

 

[Elin]

God is free and He's also free from the definitions with which you lock Him in your mental prison. Also, if you want to understand something about God's justice, read the parable of the workers in the vineyard or the parable of the prodigal son.
I don't see God acting justly towards the workers or the prodigal son, do you?

You see God acting unjustly?

Injustice is to deny them what he owes them, what they have a right to.
Do you see God denying someone what he owes them, what they have a right to?

Would you please point it out for me?

 

[Simona25]

You see God acting unjustly?

Injustice is to deny them what he owes them, what they have a right to.
Do you see God denying someone what he owes them, what they have a right to?

Would you please point it out for me?

Few posts above, you wrote:

"Justice = to give one his due, what he is owed, has a right to.

God owes, is obligated to give, and mankind has a right to, nothing but justice.
And in justice, God owes condemnation on all sin,
as did the Mosiac law (Dt 27:26), which was its purpose to show (Gal 3:10).

Therefore, those who receive condemnation have not been treated unjustly.
God has given them what he owes them."

From the parable of the workers in the vineyard, we can clearly see that God is "unjust", or that His justice has nothing to do with the worldly definition of justice (equitable distribution, or giving to someone what you owe him, what he has the right to receive). Also, from the parable of the prodigal son, God is "unjust" again, because the youngest son did not deserve the forgiveness and love that the father showed . So, yes, I would say that God is "unjust", or that His justice is forgiveness, goodness and love.

 

[crossnote]

So two men are going over a waterfall due to their own fault. God saves one and not the other, then judges guilty the one He did not save?
Sounds a little quirky to me.

I'm sorry you find God's word quirky.

You darken God's counsel with words without knowledge.

So you are saying that God's answer to your question:

--"Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" (Ro 9:20)
Does not the potter have the right to form the clay as he chooses? (Ro 9:21)
(Isa 45:11-12; Job 40:2)--

is inadequate and quirky (Job 38:3--41:34).

a) Therefore, you call God to the bar of your reason to give an account of his justice. . .
to justify it to you. . .or he can be God no longer.

That's called turning things upside down as if the potter were thought to be the clay.

b) And you require others to justify God to you.

It is no one's job to justify God to anyone.
It is your job to receive his answer to your question.
And when he then makes an end to teaching,
it is your job to make an end to learning.

It is your job to agree with God,
It is not God's job to make himself agreeable to you.

Nor is it anyone's job to overcome your objection to God's sovereignty.

c) And then you present an analogy which misrepresents God's justice and mercy.

Two men are going to hell because they are guilty of, and justly condemned for, law breaking.
not because they become guilty after their just condemnation.
God justly judged both men guilty of law breaking.

Then God mercifully saves one of the guilty men from his earned and just condemnation,
while leaving the other in his just condemnation.

God has not denied the unsaved what he owes them and what they have a right to.
They have been given what they are due (Mt 20:13), and have no grounds for
complaint (Mt 20:14), for they cannot claim title to anything more.

God has the right to do as he pleases, as long as no one is denied the justice
to which he is entitled.
That he chooses to give some more than he owes them is his prerogative as God,
for he defines himself in Scripture thusly:
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion (Ex 33:19)."
--Ro 9:15

Therefore, it does not depend on anything but the sovereignty of God (Ro 9:16).

He's God. . .and you're not.

It's not God's Word that I'm calling quirky it's the Calvinists caricature of God and failure to explain simple questions as I posed above and on my first post of this thread.
I know all the silly arguments and 'proof texts' Calvinists use and how they deflect the tough questions by parroting their standard verses. It's hard for them to say 'we don't know', but instead they use human logic to fill in the areas that are not revealed.

"Then God mercifully saves one of the guilty men from his earned and just condemnation,
while leaving the other in his just condemnation."

Then how does God escape the charge of being partial (on the basis of your explanation) ?