The rapture?

Hepsibah · Feb 15, 2015

Please read Luke17:26-36. This passage speaks about the day when Christ will be revealed to take away the prepared. On that day we should be ready to leave everything and go. Our hearts should not be longing for earthly things or looking back like Lots wife

Mark chapter 13 gives the entire chronology of end time events which ends with the open coming of Christ

in these above two passages you will be surprised to find only the following verses similar

in that day he who is on the housetops and his goods are in the house let him not come down to take them away And likewise one who is in the field let him not turn back (Luke17:31 Mark 13:15,16)

This shows that the rapture explained in Luke17:26-36 happens just after the antichrist is revealed as the abomination causing desolation

God bless

popeye · Feb 15, 2015

Hashe said:

Interesting that I just learned, from a close examination of the greek,a little nugget I had previously missed.
1 thes 4 ;13"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."
That word hope is equally translated "expectation"
elpidaelpidaG1680n_ Acc Sg fEXPECTATION

Which would make that verse also read "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no expectation."

Truly is a pretrib rapture as the more I study (the verses your "teachers" will never,ever show you) the more the word proves it's own time tested,verifiable truths.

Leave out the pretrib verses .....and yes....undeniably....poooof!....we always arrive at anti-pretrib doctrines.

PlainWord · Feb 17, 2015

Hepsibah said:

Luke 17 does not prove a pre-Trib timing. Quite the opposite. It proves a post trib "Wrath" return of Christ. The rapture doctrine teaches only a snatching away of believers, not that the wrath comes at the same time. However, Christ only speaks of one return which includes a "gathering" not rapture, of His remnant with wrath revenge aimed at those who had been killing His children.

In fact, read further a few verses into Luke 18 and you see Christ doubt if He will find any faith left on earth. Now why would He wonder about that if he came before the Tribulation and took all believers away?

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? [SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

I tell you the Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan whereby He uses His Islamic terrorist army to behead and kill Jews and Christians and anyone else who will not worship him (Satan). This is starting right now in the middle east with ISIS. This will continue and spread across the globe with Islamic extremist killing Christians everywhere they go. A great multitude of martyrs will be killed and seen in heaven who "came out of the Great Tribulation." God avenges their deaths when he repays the wicked.

Hepsibah · Mar 1, 2015

If you would read Luke 17:26-36 it talks specifically about the day and night of the day when Christ is revealed.

Mark chapter 13 gives an entire chronology of end time events.

Mark 13:15,16 is the same as Luke 17:31. This indicates the time when the revealing of Christ explained in Luke 17:26-36 happens

Actually in the entire chronology of Mark 13, if you would read carefully you will understand that Mark13: 15,16 speaks to the people who are willing to forsake everything and who will be taken away. They will be one among the two who are in the field or grinding (the event explained fully in Luke17:26-36)

And the rest of the passage in Mark 13 that is verses from 17 speaks to those left behind to flee and endure till end.

I have been blessed by this revelation. Hope it will help others too.

God bless

PlainWord · Mar 4, 2015

Hepsibah said:

Sadly, you have not been given any revelation about Christ snatching away believers while leaving others behind to endure until the end. Your interpretation is faulty. You have incorrectly identified who is being taken and where they are being taken to. Here is the passage you are relying upon.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: [SUP]27 [/SUP]They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

In the above, who were swept away and destroyed? Mat 24:36-39 is a companion passage to the above and here it makes clear that the sinful are the ones being taken away. Notice also the period of time mentioned above is called, "The days of the Son of Man" it is not called the return of the Son of Man.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot’s wife. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [SUP]

Same thing here. Notice the Son of Man is revealed, not returned. He is revealed and seen in Heaven. Just like in the days of Lot, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed the wicked. So what happens to the wicked when the Son of Man is revealed? Hang on, we are told in a moment...

34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

Who is being taken and who is being left? This passage does not say, right? You assume the righteous is the one taken and the wicked left but Christ does not say that in this passage. Now look at the companion passage from Mat 24 and we are told which one is taken.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Who were eating and drinking and did not know what was coming in the days of Noah? The wicked, right? Who did the flood take away - ALL OF THEM? The wicked. Now we are told where the wicked are taken to in the below, back to Luke 17.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

The above passage matches perfectly Mat 24:28 which says:

[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Now we are given a location, not a timing. However, if you notice from Mat 24 the Son of Man does not return until verse 30.

So, what is this body or carcass that Christ mentions twice? Twice we are told Eagles will be gathered to a singular body. There can be only one answer as to the identity of the "Body or Carcass." There is one central figure during the Great Tribulation who has been deceiving the nations and causing all the death, right?

Dan 11:

[SUP]45 [/SUP]And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

Ezek 28:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’”

Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”

The body can be that of none other than the Man of Sin, aka The King of the North, aka The King of Tyre, aka the AntiChrist, aka Satan come as a man. And where is Satan defeated? Why at Armageddon of course. So where are the wicked taken when the Son of Man is revealed in Heaven? To Armageddon.

I know what you are thinking, do we have any other passages that tell us the wicked are taken and whisked off to Armageddon? Great question.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
The above tells us exactly where and when the wicked are taken. They are snatched away and taken to fight with Satan at Armageddon against the Lord.

So what about the righteous? Christ gathers those left alive who survived all the way through Satan's Great Tribulation and He gathers us to Himself. We have our time of rest.

2 Thes 1:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

All the wicked and terrible Islamic Satan followers are destroyed at the Battle of Armageddon. See the below. All the wicked are removed from the Land of Israel. This happens first!!

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“And there shall no longer be a pricking brier or a painful thorn for the house of Israel from among all who are around them, who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord God.”

[h=3]Israel’s Future Blessing[/h][SUP]25 [/SUP]‘Thus says the Lord God: “When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord their God.”’”

So who is Jesus gathering? The Jews who were scattered throughout the nations.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are the ones gathered when Christ returns.

Hepsibah · Mar 6, 2015

Thank you so much for this long explanation. But I am convinced that these Scriptures speak about the Rapture. As you have explained about the days of Noah and Lot, in both these incidents Noah and Lot were miraculously delivered.

Also those verses portray the condition of the world which is going on as usual, in contrast to the terrible days prior to the open coming of Christ.

Also in Luke 21:36 we read the exhortation "Watch therefore and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man"

Jeff_56 · Mar 6, 2015

Hashe said:

i completely believe you and trust God and know from the title (if the subject matches the title) that
it is
good and right and true.

but for someone who is blind and deaf and has a brain controlled by something else, is there any help
and/ or
remedy so
that the truth may be known by them ??

thank you very much.

Blain · Mar 6, 2015

Ok ppl before we go into this mess again lets stop and take a few steps some things we shouldnt do- Go into this debate with the im right no ifs ands or buts attitude

twist scripture simply to fit our view

be dis respectful in any way

things we should do
have a learnable and teachable heart even if it means your view is wrong

respond lovingly and respectfully

know when to leave when the debate clearly goes nowhere

just some advice you are free to take it or not but what is the point of debating nothing is gained? ask yourself honestly why am I debating? If its just to prove your right then your debating for the wrong reason

PlainWord · Mar 6, 2015

Hepsibah said:

You are certainly free to believe in something not taught using your own intellect and rationale as a replacement for the clear teaching of God. Doing this, however, is not wise. We are told to watch. Why? Because unless you understand the signs, you will not see them. There are no passages telling us that the church is going to be snatched up before the Tribulation and whisked off to heaven!!! This is complete conjecture.

In fact, the Bible clearly teaches us that the Church is the subject of Satan's Great Tribulation. We are the ones in danger, us and the Jews. Why? Because we are God's People and Satan has been trying to disrupt God's plan not only for us but for him also.

Let me see if I can help you.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who is the Woman? It is Israel.

Who is her offspring? It is the Church.

What happens after Satan tries to go after the Woman after she "flies to the wilderness" and is protected? He wages war with the Church. If the Church was raptured before this there would be no offspring "keeping the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Daniel tells us the same thing in Dan 7:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...

We also see in Rev 7 that a Great Multitude of Christians are killing during Satan's Tribulation. Then in Mat 24 Jesus HIMSELF tells us that the days of Satan's persecution must be shortened or no flesh will be left alive. To anyone who think these Christians are new Christians who have come to salvation AFTER the so-called Rapture let me remind you that there is ABSOLUTELY NO PASSAGE that teaches this.

However, to your point. There will be some Christians not killed are are worthy of being spared Satan's wrath. You point out the passage in Luke 21 which agrees with Rev 3:10:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Those counted worthy to be spared are the remnant. There will be a remnant of Israel and there will be a remnant of the Church. Again, in Mat 24 Jesus was asked specifically:

"...And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Do you not see that the disciples were only aware of one coming and not two? They tied His coming to the end of the age. If there was an earlier rapture return followed by a period of Tribulation then followed by another return of Christ they would not have been interested in the end of the age but rather just the signs leading up to His first return because it would be that return where they would expect to be taken.

Christ goes into length concerning the Great Tribulation but never breathes one word about coming before then to take anyone away!!

PlainWord · Mar 6, 2015

What is the purpose of the Great Commission? Why is it that the end won't come until this mission is complete?

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

ANSWER: Not only to give everyone an opportunity for salvation (which obviously are only those alive) but also since we are told the whole world will be tested, it is important that the whole world have been given this witness of the gospel before they are tested.

The test is this?

Who will you worship, Satan or God.

The church cannot be tested if it isn't here for the test. I mean doesn't that make sense? We have to be here to be tested.

Hepsibah · Mar 7, 2015

Dear brother

I am really thankful to you for the patient long reply you have given But I would like to say a few things

Personally I was totally confused about these pre, mid, post trib etc etc interpretations and I did not want to believe something which was not in the Scripture and build castles in the air.

Then I decided to ask The Lord about this. I was really amazed when The Lord opened up these two Scriptures for me.

Mark chapter 13 speaks at length about the end time events. And almost at the end is the open coming of Christ.

And in the middle of the chapter, immediately after the abomination is revealed, Mark 15 and 16 says " Let him who is on the housetops not go down into the house nor enter to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes

The explanation for these two verses is found in Luke 17:26-36

From Luke 17:26-36 we clearly understand that it speaks about the day of the rapture when Lord Jesus Christ is revealed to take away the prepared ones.

We can know that The Lord is speaking here to believers to be prepared by his admonition"Remember Lots wife" Lots wife was unable to escape because her heart was in sodom. So The Lord is exhorting believers to be not weighed down with the cares of this life so that day will come upon us unexpectedly but to watch and pray that we may be counted worthy to escape all these things
(Luke21:34-36)

So I am convinced by the grace of God that the rapture is a sure event and that it will happen immediately after the abomination is revealed.

And it was divine coincidence that I also happened to read a book that was lying idle with me for nearly two decades
"The last of the giants -Islam by George Otis Jr

In that book the author has clearly explained how Islam has it's apocalypse events recorded in their book and they are working towards it.

He has explained how the muslim nations of the Middle East will unite under a leader to capture Israel and then the whole world for it is the command given to them in their book

And on observation I found that there is already a league of ten muslim countries under the banner " Economic Cooperation Organisation"(the beast with ten horns)

And Iraq has recently signed lot of Mou s with these countries( probably the other horn who makes a covenant with many)

And already there is so much disturbing things going on in the middle east( they do these terrible things to fulfil their mandate)

So we are much near the end than many think. Let us as a Christian family unite in prayer for each other as we wait for the Lords coming

God bless

popeye · Mar 7, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

Amen
It tuly is a pretrib rapture as the word of God has revealed to us.

MarcR · Mar 7, 2015

PlainWord;1934957 Let me see if I can help you. [COLOR=#0000cd said:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[/COLOR]

Who is the Woman? It is Israel.

Who is her offspring? It is the Church.

What happens after Satan tries to go after the Woman after she "flies to the wilderness" and is protected? He wages war with the Church. If the Church was raptured before this there would be no offspring "keeping the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus Christ."

PlainWord,

The Church will indeed be raptured as described in 1The Chapter 4. The church may indeed experience the wrath of man as the antichrist ascends to power; but will NEVER experience the wrath of God.

You are neglecting Zec 12:10-13:2 Israel will come to faith at the Lord's return. Those who come to faith after the rapture and during the tribulation are the tribulation Church.

Your position was well thought out and IMO well intended but wrong.

PlainWord · Mar 8, 2015

Hepsibah

No friend, this is an incorrect view. The Rapture is NOT immediately after the Abomination of Desolation is set up. This is when Satan's Great Tribulation begins. Those in Judea are told to flee, to not go down to get anything but to immediately "run for their lives." Look at the context. Christ doesn't say a word about returning until AFTER the Tribulation.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I believe this Abomination is tied to the appearance of the Man of Sin (Satan as a man on earth claiming to be God). It is at this point that Satan goes after God's Chosen. This is why Jesus warns them to flee. Jesus tells them to go to the wilderness where they will be protected.

Rev 12: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Once Satan sees he cannot kill all the Jews he turns his attention to the Church. We then have massive slaughter of Christians. God has to cut the Tribulation short otherwise Satan will kill EVERYBODY and there will be no flesh left alive. So, those days (Satan's Tribulation) are cut short for the ELECT, which are the chosen remnant.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Christ then returns after the Tribulation. The rest of your post is spot on. Yes, the Muslim world is rising and they will slaughter untold hundreds of millions. They have already started.

PlainWord · Mar 8, 2015

MarcR said:

PlainWord;1934957 Let me see if I can help you. [COLOR=#0000cd said:

Sadly, you like so many don't see the Tribulation for what it is. The Tribulation is SATAN'S Wrath, not God's. God's wrath comes after Satan's wrath and is in response to it.

Here is the proof...

Rev 12:12 Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Notice the warning word used here "WOE?" See that it is Satan who comes with great wrath???? Now we see this same "WOE warning before the 5-7th trumpets which are all part of Satan's wrath.

Rev 8:13: “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”

God's wrath are the bowls and they are poured out specifically in response to Satan's tribulation. The Christian world has been lulled to sleep by not understanding who is behind the Tribulation. They think they are going to be Raptured in an unBiblical Fly Away Doctrine.

The Rapture happens on the last day of Earth at the end of the millennium. I am shocked how many Christians have been deceived. 1 Thes 4 isn't even discussing the Return of Christ, it talks of the Return of God the Father. Just read verse 14:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Who is bringing those who sleep in Jesus? GOD is!! Why is this so? Because the resurrection happens on the last day, not on some day prior to Satan's Tribulation. Just read John 6. He tells you in 3 places in this chapter alone that the resurrection is on the last day.

[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

[SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

LAST DAY is the Resurrection and the Rapture. Jesus gathers when He returns. God raptures.

Hepsibah · Mar 9, 2015

Once again I thank so much dear brother for your patient reply. Let us be be prepared as a Virgin with oil in the lamp.If The Lord chooses us to stay here during tribulation I am sure He will see us through it

john832 · Mar 9, 2015

Hepsibah said:

Actually, this is not referring to the resurrection, it is referring to the church fleeing to a Place of Safety on earth...

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Notice, Noah (and his family) went into the ark and survived the flood. Lot fled to Zoar and was spared the destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounds.

Now carefully notice what is said here...

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

When we see Christ returning (like lightning shining from East to West) after all the devastation of 2-1/2 years of Tribulation and the Day of the Lord (the Trumpet Plagues) about the last thought that would cross your mind is to run back into the house and grab a change of underwear and a toothbrush but, if one were going to flee to a place of safety on earth just prior to the beginning of the Great tribulation, then some amenities would look quite inviting.

Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

They were fleeing for their lives and Mrs. Lot looked longingly back at the society she was leaving, her house, her garden, her friends and all that was involved in the society she was leaving behind.

Willie-T · Mar 9, 2015

And don't forget the absurdity of thinking anyone should be concerned with it being the Sabbath, or winter, or if they are pregnant or nursing... if the end of life as we know it is happening.

john832 · Mar 9, 2015

Willie-T said:

Again, more likely applies to a flight to a Place of Safety.

Willie-T · Mar 9, 2015

john832 said:

Yeah... they are even told to run for the mountains.......... How would THAT particular location hide you from God?

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