The Bible's Message?

Nick01 · Jul 23, 2014

Nick01, I came back to this thread and read your comment. First of all, thank you for taking the time to explain your positions to me. If I may, though, I would like to offer some correction.

''However, Christianity would say that the solution to suffering is not detachment, but instead, closer fellowship. The reason we suffer is not because we are attached to the material world, causing pain, but rather the reason is because we seek not to live in step with God's will. Part of that might include being caught up in fast cars and lots of mone and that sort of thing, but it's much more fundemental than that - our problem is autonomy. We want to do what we want, and stuff God and everyone else. We don't want live God's way, which is the way of life, because God is life but we seek our own destination, hurting anyone who gets in the way, and ultimately causing our own suffering, in the way a dog might run out into the middle of the road only to be run over. The difference is we should know better.''

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I think the issue, though, is in what sense people are their 'true selves'. I think, in Christian thought, there is not the same kind of distinction made in Buddhism, and from my understanding paticularly Theravada Buddhism, where there is a sense of trying to realise true self beyond ignorance and beyond entrapment in the material. Christian thought finds our identity clearly in both the physical and spiritual, because we are designed to be both physical and spiritual, and so physical desires and wants are genuine desires and wants, just poorly realised because of our fallen natures. Desire for things such as material safety, happiness, relational fulfillment, etc are not inherently bad, but corrupted. So there is a detachment in Christianity from self, but not as an absolute - Christ instructs people to deny self because it is the way in which we serve others, not because the self is inherently wrong - he himself denied self, though he was pure. It's a subtle difference, perhaps, but one that I feel accounts for a lot of the difference in most forms of Buddhism and Christianity

''But the message of the gospel is that Jesus did what we could not do - he was obedient. He put others before himself. He sought his Father's will over his own. The perplexing thing though is that he suffered because of it, in order to spare us eternal suffering. He stood in our place before God, and he even took on the suffering of the human beings who put him to death. He died to reconcile us to God, because of our sin and self-interest, because of the wrongness of that. Those who would follow Christ, as you would follow any great teacher, must live like him. ''

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I would be interested in what you think of Jesus asking the Father to take away the cup of suffering and punishment (acknowledging, of course, that he does actually stay the course and obey the Father). How does that stack up against the Buddha, in your mind?

''And that means caring for the poor and oppressed, as one must care for all people. But curing poverty or sickness is not the answer in Christianity anymore than it is in classical Buddhism. The solution is to cure the human heart. But which is the correct way?''

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The Four Noble Truths would seem to suggest, however, that simple caring is not enough - one must actually become aware of the reasons for their suffering and act in opposition to the normal course of their desires in order to escape them. In other words, caring for others in Buddhism might flow from one's own dharma and knowledge, but that in itself does not ultimately cure suffering in that other person. Is that something you would agree with, or have I got that wrong?

I'm enjoying this chat - I don't often have the opportunity to have a frank discussion with a committed buddhist.

Elin · Jul 23, 2014

Esanta said:

The fundamental problem between Christianity and Buddhism is the place of suffering.

Suffering is at the heart of Christianity.
Jesus came to suffer immensely.
God uses suffering to mature his children.

Suffering is an integral part of God's plan for his own.

Esanta · Jul 24, 2014

Elin said:

Suffering is also at the heart of Buddhism. Every person comes into this Earth and suffers immensely. You, me, and everybody else. Jesus spent his life selflessly helping people who suffered, physically and mentally. I'd much rather follow that example as far as I am able. Wouldn't you?

Elin · Jul 24, 2014

Esanta said:

Buddha's aim was to remove suffering from the world.
Jesus did not aim to remove suffering from the world.
Actually, he spent his life in the far more important work of preaching about the kingdom of God,
teaching and preparing his apostles, working miracles which showed the nature of his kingdom; i.e.,
sight to the spiritually blind, hearing to the spiritually deaf, enablement to the spiritually maimed,
eternal life to the spiritually dead, and then his greatest work--he payed the ransom to free his own from
the wrath of God on their sin.

2Thewaters · Jul 24, 2014

Esanta said:

ok, let me help you...

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
Gen 2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
Gen 2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Gen 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
Gen 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Gen 4:18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
Gen 4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
Gen 4:20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
Gen 4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
Gen 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.
Gen 4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
Gen 4:24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Gen 5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
Gen 5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
Gen 5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
Gen 5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
Gen 5:16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
Gen 5:19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Gen 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
Gen 5:26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Gen 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Gen 5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
Gen 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

2Thewaters · Jul 24, 2014

That tells the truth
it tells all about sin
and all about obeying God
and who God is
that is the truth
that is who created us
that is who takes care of us
and that is who cares about us

Pray before you read the Bible for God to show you his truth and to give you understanding.

False religions invented by the serpent always teach to worship idols
the seprpent always says to worship idols
God always says don't worship idols

after you read the Bible you need to make a choice.

You can do whatever you want

but the only way to eternal life is through Jesus and the word of God.

Esanta · Jul 24, 2014

To Nick01.

I think the issue, though, is in what sense people are their 'true selves'. I think, in Christian thought, there is not the same kind of distinction made in Buddhism, and from my understanding paticularly Theravada Buddhism, where there is a sense of trying to realise true self beyond ignorance and beyond entrapment in the material. Christian thought finds our identity clearly in both the physical and spiritual, because we are designed to be both physical and spiritual, and so physical desires and wants are genuine desires and wants, just poorly realised because of our fallen natures. Desire for things such as material safety, happiness, relational fulfillment, etc are not inherently bad, but corrupted. So there is a detachment in Christianity from self, but not as an absolute - Christ instructs people to deny self because it is the way in which we serve others, not because the self is inherently wrong - he himself denied self, though he was pure. It's a subtle difference, perhaps, but one that I feel accounts for a lot of the difference in most forms of Buddhism and Christianity.

It seems we're quite jumbled on terms. Let me tell you what I see. You say that in Christianity, a person is to deny self-desire to some extent, not because man is inherently bad or wrong, but because relinquishing self-desire is how we serve others, yet you simultaneously say that our self-desires are poorly realized because man is an inherently 'fallen' state, thus corrupted. Would you not say that being corrupted is the wrong way to be? And again, you say that desires for safety, happiness, relational fulfillment are not bad, as though I have said they are bad and that Buddhism is a teaching of asceticism, which it is in fact not. All human beings desire safety, happiness, fulfilment, and these things, happiness, safety and fulfilment, aren't they the opposite of suffering? And again, what is spiritual? Do you mean spiritual to be metaphysical? Or is the spiritual simply to do with belief itself? A person might say 'he is a spiritual man', because he has moral beliefs, or they could say 'see that spirit there', because they thought they have seen a ghost.

I would be interested in what you think of Jesus asking the Father to take away the cup of suffering and punishment (acknowledging, of course, that he does actually stay the course and obey the Father). How does that stack up against the Buddha, in your mind?

Jesus asked his highest authority to save him from suffering. It shows me that Jesus feels pain, he suffers. I don't feel any need to stack the two side by side in competition. I feel like it's disrespectful to them both.

The Four Noble Truths would seem to suggest, however, that simple caring is not enough - one must actually become aware of the reasons for their suffering and act in opposition to the normal course of their desires in order to escape them. In other words, caring for others in Buddhism might flow from one's own dharma and knowledge, but that in itself does not ultimately cure suffering in that other person. Is that something you would agree with, or have I got that wrong?

What is 'simple caring'? I feel that's too ambiguous a term to elaborate on properly, but I would say that caring has many forms. There are many, many ways to care for others. If you mean 'simple caring' to be having selfless compassion and empathy, then simple caring is more than sufficient to actually, genuinely care for others. Likewise, a person seeking an end to the suffering of others does not act in opposition to their desires when they try to actively alleviate that other person's suffering. Only a person with many evil desires would be acting in opposition to their desires if they were to help someone else, and only a very confused person would be acting in opposition to their desires if they were to put in effort to alleviating their own sufferings from within - for genuinely, who wants to perpetuate their own suffering?

I'm enjoying this chat - I don't often have the opportunity to have a frank discussion with a committed buddhist.

As am I, I usually don't get the chance to speak like this either

Nick01 · Jul 24, 2014

Esanta said:

To clarify, yes, we are corrupted, and yes, we that is a bad thing. But our corruption is not because we are material, and is not because we have a concept of material self that obscures our self as released from samsara. It is because our desires are poorly realised - that is, the DEGREE of our attachment and the OBJECT of our desires are wrong, but they are not wrong by NATURE, if that makes sense. I'm happy to try and tease this out some more, but it might be helpful if you ask more specific questions, so I can be more specific in response

As for Buddhism and asceticism, I suppose it depends very much on what kind of Buddhism you're talking about, as I'm sure we could agree some schools are more ascetic than others. But, correct me if I'm wrong here, the emphasis on Buddhism has long been that the object of enlightenment is more a negative liberation (that is, freedom from suffering) than a positive liberation (freedom to do something or enjoy something). So nirvana is a freedom from samsara, rather than a state in which one is satisfied by things. This, as I understand it, stems from the idea that there isn't really anything that has a truly independent and eternal aspect - all things are transient and are interdependent, hence why ignorance of this reality produces attachment, and then suffering.

It's a slightly tangential discussion, but I think the relationship of positive satisfaction (fulfilling desires for things) and suffering is different to the relationship of the absence of suffering and suffering. It's kind of the same as light and dark - darkness is not the opposite of light, but is the absence of light. At least to my understanding, Buddhism emphasises this aspect - timeless satisfaction is impossible to achieve through positive satisfaction in desire fulfilment, because all things are transient. Instead, satisfaction, such as it is, comes through escaping samsara, and 'blowing out the candle' of suffering by being free from desire. Is that a fair summation, if not of your own position, then of at least some classical Buddhist teaching?

I mean spiritual to mean not-material here, although the actual mean of spiritual in the Bible tends to mean a little more than that. In any case, my point was that Christianity positions the concept of self fundamentally in both the physical/material and the spiritual/immaterial, largely based on the original creation of both the material and immaterial by God as good.

Thank you for the answer. I guess I was just asking because I was interested in how that kind of desire and expression fits into enlightenment, rather than trying to make them compete

By simple caring, I mean caring for physical, emotional needs. Cooking dinner, feeding the poor, protecting the refugee, etc.

I'll be honest, I'm not actually entirely sure what you're arguing here. Can you clarify, please? My initial question was asking how caring for someone's physical or emotional needs ('simple caring') actually 'cures' that other persons suffering, when the root cause of suffering is not the effects and impacts of outside causes (which are transient), but one's own attachment to those things, compounded by ignorance of reality.

On a side note, can I ask what school or type of Buddhism you would most closely associate yourself with, or if you don't really ascribe to a particular school, perhaps tell me some of the distinctives of your understanding of Buddhism, and perhaps Buddhist teachers that have influenced you?

Me, I'm an Anglican (related to the Church of England), in the Protestant, evangelical, and (mostly) Reformed traditions.

Esanta · Jul 25, 2014

To Nick01

So what you are saying is that we are not corrupted by nature. If they are not corrupted by nature, then are these corruptions something we learn? You speak as though all people are corrupted in this way, yet say it is not by nature. If it is not by nature, then surely it must be something we learn - to be too attached to the objects of our desires? In Buddhism, this is called conditioning, and I don't think you and I are at odds on this.

Well, the universe itself is an eternal thing, but within it, no thing is eternal. Samsara is misunderstood. Samsara is more than just the cycle of arising, sustaining, cessating and reforming, (as in, the recogniztion that things become, they are, they cease to become, then become part of something else), it also denotes the attachment when one doesn't recognize the temporal nature of things. Thus samsara and enlightenment are like opposites. You should be aware that freedom from attachment is in itself the highest satisfactoriness. The goal is not enlightenment itself anymore than the goal of christianity is to be saved from hell. Enlightenment is true understanding of the noble truths and the eightfold path, but the goal of Buddhism is the cessation of suffering. Cessation from suffering is also freedom from unsatisfactory states, thus it could be said that it is a positive liberation - it is unbridled satisfactoriness. Also, there should be really no asceticism in Buddhism. The Buddha spent six years studying asceticism, denying himself food, good sleep, all sorts of things, and realized nothing good came from it. The Buddha's teachings make no demands, only instructions to those who are willing to follow it. There is no 'must' in Buddhism, because really, if someone follows without heart, they would not be truly willing to follow and nor could they genuinely understand and follow with effort the teachings.

People will always desire something. There are satisfactory desires and unsatisfactory desires. It is better to desire that which leads to genuine freedom from suffering than to desire the temporary fulfilments, the transient things that people grasp to in order to escape suffering. You must understand that being free from suffering is something every person wants. Now, a person can temporarily alleviate their sufferings with money or with things, with ownerships, with pleasantries, with tea or coffee or temporary little comforts, but the bigger problem still remains. When comforts go, suffering is twofold.

You must also understand that ignorance (from which stems greed, hatred and delusion) is something considered unworthy for human beings to experience. Now, those humans are not in themselves unworthy, just that Buddhists should regard such things as greed, hate and delusion (from which all defilements arise) as things that are not beneficial, not worthy of the human experience,.

Pali and Sanskrit are, actually very difficult to translate to English, but I'll give you a short conversation from the Buddha that explains some of this:

''Venerable Sir, there are some teachers who visit out city, and to their view they expound in full, but the views of others they condemn, revile and cripple. Other teachers come and they do likewise. So, Sir, we doubt and waver as to which one of these speaks truth and which falsehood''

''Yes, young men, it is right for you to doubt, for doubt has arisen in a doubtful manner. Come, let yourselves not be led or swayed by reports or tradition, or hearsay, nor by what it is written in a religious text, nor by mere inference, nor by second guessing appearances, nor after reflection on an approval of a theory, nor by seeming possibilities, nor upon the consideration 'this man is our teacher'. But, young men, when you know for yourselves 'these things are unwholesome, these things are blameable and unprofitable'', then indeed do you reject them. And when you know for yourselves ''these things are wholesome, blameless and profitable'' then indeed do you accept them. Now, what do you think, young men, when greed hate and delusion arise in a man, do they arise to his profit or to his loss?''

''To his, loss, Venerable Sir. They arise to his loss''

''Now, what do you think, young men, when freedom from greed, hate and delusion arise in a man, do they arise to his profit or to his loss? Are they blameless or blameable?''

''To his profit, Venerable Sir. They are blameless''

''If now, knowing this and keeping this, would you say ''We honour our master, and it is through respect for him that we respect his teachings?''

'No, Venerable Sir''

''That which you affirm here, young men, is it not that which you yourselves have seen, recognized and kept?''

''Yes, Venerable Sir''.

So does Buddhism. The five sense faculties are that by which we sense, the sixth sense faculty, or cognition, is that by which we cognate and of course past experience and condition effect the manner in which we see the world. However, I'm still not completely clear on your definition of what 'self' is.

No problem.

Caring for others alleviates someone else's suffering temporarily, just like giving yourself temporary things alleviates your suffering temporarily. Both desire freedom from suffering, yet do not find lasting cessation from suffering in temporary things. Both desire freedom from suffering, and this is the desire from which springs man's seeking and clinging to temporary alleviations from suffering. Now, it is venerable to give water to a thirsty person, because compassion is at the heart of Buddhism, but it is a temporary fix for a more seemingly permanent problem. It is not wrong to help others, of course not, how could it ever be? But temporary alleviations are not lasting. This is why I said ''a person seeking to help the suffering of others does not act in opposition to their desires when they try to actively alleviate that other person's suffering. Only a person with many evil desires would be acting in opposition to their desires if they were to help someone else, and only a very confused person would be acting in opposition to their desires if they were to put in effort to alleviating their own sufferings from within - for genuinely, who wants to perpetuate their own suffering?''

In other words, if someone wants to help another's suffering, then their desire is to help. They are not acting in opposition to that desire when they help, and nor should they. Likewise, only for a person who is unhelpful and selfish could helping others be contrary to their desires, and for a very confused person could working to alleviate their own suffering be contrary to their desires.

I would be more inclined to look at the Pali Canon (the most original texts), and read as much of Buddha's own words as possible, and I've been influenced by teachers such as Thera Piyadassi, but I see truths in different places. Jesus of Nazareth is one of my biggest influences.

Nick01 · Jul 31, 2014

Sorry for the delay!

Esanta said:

No, we are corrupted by nature. What I meant was that our corrupted desires are not corrupted because of the nature of those desires, but by their object and by degree. So, for instance, if I look at a woman with lust, my problem is not so much that I have feelings of a sexual or sensual nature - God made Eve because he saw it was not good for Adam to be alone. God designed people in general to feel sexual desires, and to take pleasure from that. What is corrupted about lust is that a) the object of lust cane be any woman, including women who are not my wife/women who I otherwise have no interest or care for, and b) it is uncontrolled, and it masters me, instead of me mastering it. I think that's a subtly different view to Buddhism - Buddhism says there is no true satisfaction to be found in sensual things, because they are a distraction and are transient. Christianity says there is good in those things, because that was what we were designed for, but those desires must be realised first and foremost within the context of true relationship with and obedience to God. Does that make more sense?

I feel on this last point we could back and forth a lot, and quibble over the details. I wouldn't consider freedom from something to be a positive liberty, in the philosophical sense of the word 'positive'. That to me suggests satisfaction because of an absence of unsatisfaction, rather than a large amount of satisfaction, but that seems quibbling to me.

As a side note, do you believe that when one escapes samsara, that one retains conciousness? Is nirvana a state of awareness, where I can think and perceive as coherently as a I do, or is it a kind of blissful unconciousness or subconciousness?

Sure, and that's something recognised in Christianity - a good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree bad fruit. You can't make a bad tree produce good fruit, etc.

But I would still say that there is an ascetism in Buddhism, even if it is not an extreme one. Madhyamaka would seem to suggest that some pleasures must be abstained from absolutely if one wishes to achieve enlightenment, even if other desires are allowed in certain degrees.

Would you say that freedom from suffering is the only desire that is 'satisfactory'? Or would you say there are other physical desires that are also 'satisfactory'? For instance, if I were able somehow to truly be free of the desire to eat, would that make me more enlightened, or is the desire to eat by nature a satisfactory desire?

My only comment, by way of comparison, would be that I think Christianity would say the issue of greed, hatred, and delusion is not one of ignorance. Humans are not simply ignorant of the reality of things, and thus suffering is created. Rather, Christianity would argue that humans wilfully disobey, are wilfully greedy, hateful, and deluded, and from these things suffering comes because they are against the created order. People know better, but don't act accordingly.

Self is that which defines my existance in its completeness. I might have elements of my 'self', but it is only the elements together that constitutes true 'self'.

So I can get a better idea of where you're coming from, do you believe that the pure existence of human beings is in some sort of non-material form? Is our material 'self' part of our 'true' self, or is it purely a product of being caught in samsara?

I'd like to discuss this more, if we can. Buddhism would seem to suggest that much of the problem of desire, what makes ignorant desire 'wrong' is not that it gives satisfaction per se, but that the satisfaction it gives is temporal. Thus, it feeds the delusion that we can find satisfaction in samsara, when true enlightenment is to be found in the realisation that this is dukkha.

So my question is, if it is error to be desirous of temporal things because it feeds the delusion and obscures the four noble truths, why is being compassionate in a purely temporal way towards other people ok?

Can I ask if there are any good translations of the Pali Canon in English that you know of? I haven't read much of the early writings - most of my reading from that part of the world has actually been in Vedic literature (the Bhagavad Gita, in particular), not so much in classical Buddhist literature.

Can I also ask which of the gospels you found most influential? Or perhaps a particular aspect of the life of Jesus, or a particular 'event' or 'episode' that you found particularly affecting?

Kerry · Jul 31, 2014

I would have read it but. way to long. The message of te bible is Christ and Him crucified. All this doctrine is relevant. The doctrines of men have defiled the work of the cross.

Esanta · Aug 1, 2014

Not a problem!

You mean the desire itself is not corrupt, but the degree to which you fetter to the desire is itself corrupt, and that this overzealous degree of desiration is itself the natural corruption, or 'the nature of man', if you will? And you also say that these desires themselves are not 'wrong', only the degree to which they are pursued and lusted after and grasped are wrong? What I recognize is that you have spoken about a way it was (with Adam and Eve, in Eden) and a way that it is, now. Buddhism focuses on what is, not on what was at the beginning of time, and so, whether or not God designed us for lust is inherently not a consideration, because the matter of the present is that we struggle with it. You have said that the degree of man's fixation on his desires fetters him, that it can master him, rather than he master it. So, those desires must be first realized, understood, and curbed, controlled, refined, in a particular context towards betterment of oneself, which for you is towards the the obedience to God. And to embrace this obedience to God, does he not ask you 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you', and 'do not sleep with your neighbours wife' and 'don't commit adultery', and 'love your enemies', and to be mindful of your desires? And doesn't he also advise for those who embrace the path of compelte sexual abstinence and monk-ship that it is better to be single if at all possible? And what the Buddha says is almost exactly the same. The Buddha's own words were 'consider others as yourself'. For the layman, he is expected to live my right livelihood, not killing or causing to kill, to live by right effort, not sleeping with another man's wife, nor commiting adultery, respecting his responsibilities, controlling his anger, spending time reflecting, being self aware, cultivating compassion. The same qualities.

Satisfaction is the absence of unsatisfaction, just as unsatisfaction is the absence of satisfaction. They are opposite terms, however the true question is what both are made of.

Nibbana is something I've never experienced, so while I might try to explain it, it would be like explaining a third hand account of what sitting on the moon feels like. But perhaps this might serve you better:

On seeing Buddha, Dona went to him and said, “Master, are you a high god?”
“No, brahman, I am not a high god.”
“Are you a lower god?”
“No Brahmin, I am not…”
“… a protector spirit?”
“No Brahmin, I am not…”
“… a human being?”
“No, brahman, I am not”
…
“Then what sort of being are you?”
…
“Remember me, brahman, as ‘awakened.’”

It's difficult to understand, because it looks as though he's saying he's not human, but what you must realize is that distinction, labelling these all graspings to 'things', perspectives of duality. One way to answer your question is to say that there can certainly exist suffering, and an end of suffering, yet there be no 'self' to grasp upon it one way or the other.

Certainly, there are different interpretations.

Freedom from suffering, or, to say it differently, the pursuit of non-suffering, is the only desire by which most humans ever do anything at all, and often it's the very desire that leads them around their entire lives, to things that often compound their suffering. Desire without mindfulness is like wanting to run in the dark. Tomorrow, when you do something, examine yourself deeply, mindfully, and consider what motivated you to do it. I would think you would have some idea of what desires are satisfactory or not.

To answer your second question, food is an inalienable desire. We all feel hunger, and while perhaps those well versed in meditation may be able to stop grasping and clinging to that hunger, it would be inherently cruel to deny someone food.

This is where we disagree. I would say that certain statement in the bible would allow for the interpretation of mankind's blindness or deliberate rebellion, but Buddha is clear on this point. Ignorance (not understanding fully) is the root of evil. If a person was to truly see fully, the unbeneficial nature of evil thoughts and desires would be fully shown. Nobody would desire them.

When you talk about self, you talk about eternalism, the 'soul', everlasting and persisting 'as is' after death to another kind of eternal life, and when you talk about no-self, that implies for you nihilism, the complete destruction of the life and the nothingness thereafter. The first is something the Buddha denied because nothing observed stays the same; all things are subject to change, to becoming, cessating and re-becoming, and the second, because it is a materialistic view that denies the conditionality of the mind. Buddha, in fact, never said much on the two because he considered the wisemen of the time to be more interested in flexing minds than helping humanity's problems. What he did say was that our problems are not in the past or the future; the present is the only moment wherein we are, continually and always, and within this present, we continually change, mentally, physically, atmospherically. We are anatta, 'impermanent', and like all things, interdependent. Conciousness exists as an arising of conditions, not of rebirth of the soul or of recurrent lives. Consciousness arises under conditions and cessates under them. The mind is not a single entity, but a series of things bound together by strings of memory, perception, etc.

Pure physical states of being and transmigration of the soul is more your area. I would say we have beneficial ways to live and un-benificial ways to live.

The issue with desire is clinging to the things we desire, it is the arising of dukkha, or of unsatisfactoriness. A woman, for instance, can be a great joy, loved and loving, compassionate and kind, beautiful, sensual, but a man who can experience the highs and lows with a certain tranquil passiveness fares better than a man who is led to despair by the desires, the problems and the issues, and who is always looking to grasp and latch frantically.

It is erroneous to latch to temporal desires, latching, clinging, is the arising of dukkha. Desiring food, a temporal fix for a life time of hunger, is a natural desire, yet even clinging to that desire can cause issues. Ruminating too much, grasping, obsessing, strangling that desire. All these are 'clingings', the same way, grasping to hatred is detrimental, too. Clinging, squeezing, obsessing, strangling that desire. Yet, if someone was hungry, would we not feed them? And if someone was angry, would we not try to understand their anger?

To be quite honest, like a lot of the bible, it's been infected with denominationalism and various rules and regulations to the point that it's more commentary than speech. However, there are some fantastic books you can buy, and some great websites with at-length discourses from the Buddha. My advice if you do read the Canon, read the words without the commentary if possible.

Some great books are: The Life of the Buddha As It Appears in the Pali Canon, by Bhikku Nanamoli and The Word of the Buddha by Nyanatiloka Mahathera, which contains lots of the Pali Canon.

I tend to read the Apocrypha more than the bible. I obsessed over the New Testament in the past and now I tend to just keep the sayings of Jesus close by. I find all of his words to be affecting, he was a very thoughtful man. Particularly the forgiving of the adulterous woman, his parables on 'the Kingdom of Heaven' and really the entire three years he spent in the Middle East.

I'm sure that somewhere hidden in the world there must be discourses from Jesus far greater in length than anything available to us today.

2Thewaters · Aug 1, 2014

Esanta said:

There is no eternal burning hell in the Bible there is punishment in the lake of fire until they are dead.
God saves sinners who live selfishly

that is all of us
now God is the being who created you and me.
He deserves respect and worship

making a buddha idol who did NOT create me
who cannot THINK
who cannot TALK
and who cannot WALK

Your creator who created you deserves obedience and respect

The Bible is the word of God to us
It deserves complete obedience and respect.

The bible is his word
if you dont believe that we are wasting our time

how can two people meet together when one keeps calling the other persons mother an idiot and a pervert?

it wont happen.

God created you
you read the Bible
and you still worship a metallic piece of junk
dont play coy, and say you honestly want the truth

you rejected the truth in the Bible so why are you hear?

Idols are STUPID and they will trick others into loosing eternal life
what fool prays to an idol?
a piece of JUNK
silliness

and then you put up a conversation between a christian and perfect you to show how bad the christian is

what a hypocrite

people with love dont show how bad others are

if you dont want God that is your problem

but coming in here to mock christianity is disgusting especially after God gave his son to die for you and you still worship a piece of junk metal who cant hear see or speak.

that is my opinion and
your portraying yourself to be some missionary of peace is rediculous.
Who gave you that job to come in hear and show how bad a christian (probably a child) is?
Not God

not the loving creator that is for sure.

God warned us of WOLVES who would come in and tear up the flock
we are not to feed them.

I gave you the benafit of the doubt until you started badmouthing someone

that sir, is the devil
the spirit that speaks bad about others is the devil
that is the accuser of the brethren

we dont do that here.

but when it DOES happen God DEMANDS we call people out on it

DONT TALK BAD ABOUT MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST

it is not your job to go around telling people how bad some christians are.
get thee behind me...
have a nice day

if you have any remorse, go to God and ask him for forgivenss and to hear your prayer you will first have to dumpt the silly idol.
we dont believe in idols and they are an abomination after God created you to come in here and talk to a piece of wood or metal is totally silly.

have a nice day.

2Thewaters · Aug 1, 2014

I was paraphrasing the Bible
I guess you dident read that part did you?

let me put it up for you.

2Thewaters · Aug 1, 2014

The Bibles message?
GLAD YOU ASKED!

HERE IT IS

this is the end
cant you see it?
the ebola is loose
the oceans dying
the plagues are loosed
get ready!

1 Listen to the Message that God is sending your way, House of Israel.
2 Listen most carefully: "Don't take the godless nations as your models.
Don't be impressed by their glamour and glitz,
no matter how much they're impressed.
3 The religion of these peoples is nothing but smoke.
An idol is nothing but a tree chopped down,
then shaped by a woodsman's ax.
4 They trim it with tinsel and balls,
use hammer and nails to keep it upright.
5 It's like a scarecrow in a cabbage patch - can't talk!
Dead wood that has to be carried - can't walk!
Don't be impressed by such stuff. It's useless for either good or evil."
6 All this is nothing compared to you, O God.
You're wondrously great, famously great.
7 Who can fail to be impressed by you, King of the nations?
It's your very nature to be worshiped! Look far and wide among the elite of the nations.
The best they can come up with is nothing compared to you.
8 Stupidly, they line them up - a lineup of sticks, good for nothing but making smoke.
9 Gilded with silver foil from Tarshish, covered with gold from Uphaz,
Hung with violet and purple fabrics - no matter how fancy the sticks, they're still sticks.
10 But God is the real thing - the living God, the eternal King.
When he's angry, Earth shakes. Yes, and the godless nations quake.
11 "Tell them this: 'The stick gods who made nothing, neither sky nor earth,
Will come to nothing on the earth and under the sky.'"
12 But it is God whose power made the earth, whose wisdom gave shape to the world,
who crafted the cosmos.
13 He thunders, and rain pours down.
He sends the clouds soaring.
He embellishes the storm with lightnings,
launches wind from his warehouse.
14 Stick-god worshipers looking mighty foolish,
god-makers embarrassed by their handmade gods!
Their gods are frauds - dead sticks,
15 deadwood gods, tasteless jokes.
When the fires of judgment come, they'll be ashes.
16 But the Portion-of-Jacob is the real thing.
He put the whole universe together
And pays special attention to Israel.
His name? God-of-the-Angel-Armies!
17 Grab your bags, all you who are under attack.
18 God has given notice:
"Attention!
I'm evicting Everyone who lives here,
And right now -
yes, right now!
I'm going to press them to the limit,
squeeze the life right out of them."
19 But it's a black day for me!
Hopelessly wounded, I said, "Why, oh why did I think I could bear it?"
20 My house is ruined - the roof caved in.
Our children are gone - we'll never see them again.
No one left to help in rebuilding, no one to make a new start!
21 It's because our leaders are stupid.
They never asked God for counsel,
And so nothing worked right.
The people are scattered all over.
22 But listen!
Something's coming!
A big commotion from the northern borders!
Judah's towns about to be smashed,
left to all the stray dogs and cats!
23 I know, God, that mere mortals can't run their own lives,
That men and women don't have what it takes to take charge of life.
24 So correct us, God, as you see best.
Don't lose your temper.
That would be the end of us.
25 Vent your anger on the godless nations,
who refuse to acknowledge you,
And on the people who won't pray to you -
The very ones who've made hash out of Jacob,
yes, made hash And devoured him whole,
people and pastures alike.

psalm6819 · Aug 1, 2014

Greetings Esanta,

As you seek knowledge of the Bible one thing to keep in mind is that it is an integrated message system written by various authors (inspired by the Holy Spirit) spanning 100's of years. However all scripture is about Jesus Christ. There will come a time when you will have to make a decision. Was He a liar? Was He a lunatic? Is He Lord? Do not judge Him by the actions of men for He does not forcre change upon us but woos us with His love. When we realize how loved we are it spills out into our lives and our actions reflect it. Gof bless you. R

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