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And here's the problem. Yes one must surrender their will to the Lord but the verse in Luke is not addressing that issue. Luke speaks to those who have a mental knowledge of Christ but not a heart knowledge of Christ. Think Simon the sorcerer here in this context. Perhaps even Judas falls into the knowing but not surrendered and receiving category of so called Christians.
The only thing Christ says we are to do is believe on Him and on the Father that sent Him.
Lordship salvation makes legalism to be greater than loving the Lord with all ones heart soul and strength. Lordship salvation is all about rules that govern every aspect of ones life in Christ. Do this but don't do that meet today but not another day.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The only thing Christ says we are to do is believe on Him and on the Father that sent Him.
Lordship salvation makes legalism to be greater than loving the Lord with all ones heart soul and strength. Lordship salvation is all about rules that govern every aspect of ones life in Christ. Do this but don't do that meet today but not another day.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
S
I see it differently, if Christ isnt your Lord, If your will isnt in submission to his then Hes not your savior.
How can someone for example, claim to be a Christian but refuse to become part of the body of Christ. They forsake the assembly commanded by the Lord and they forsake the ordinances of Baptism and the Lords super.
How can someone call themselves a Christian but yet refuse to forsake a lifestyle of sin. Obviously they are lord of their life in both examples and not Christ.
How can someone for example, claim to be a Christian but refuse to become part of the body of Christ. They forsake the assembly commanded by the Lord and they forsake the ordinances of Baptism and the Lords super.
How can someone call themselves a Christian but yet refuse to forsake a lifestyle of sin. Obviously they are lord of their life in both examples and not Christ.
R
lordship salvation is an oddball form of calvinism...it is especially popular among the 'new calvinists'...or as i like to call them 'calvinist but not reformed' since they tend to come from a legalistic southern baptist background instead of the traditional reformed background...
basically they manage to combine calvinism and work righteousness by saying that while good works don't save you...your good works are the only indication that you are one of the elect... in practice this often ends up meaning that you have to meet an arbitrary standard set by some lordship salvation teacher in order to be certain of your salvation...
just as much of a problem is that a person under lordship salvation teaching is often still left with lingering doubts about their salvation...they end up in the trap martin luther fell into prior to his reformation insights...but whereas luther was never quite sure if he had done enough to merit salvation...many lordship salvation adherents are never quite sure they have done enough to prove their election...
i would say any doctrine that attempts to more or less overturn the reformation's biblical salvation mindset is a harmful thing...
basically they manage to combine calvinism and work righteousness by saying that while good works don't save you...your good works are the only indication that you are one of the elect... in practice this often ends up meaning that you have to meet an arbitrary standard set by some lordship salvation teacher in order to be certain of your salvation...
just as much of a problem is that a person under lordship salvation teaching is often still left with lingering doubts about their salvation...they end up in the trap martin luther fell into prior to his reformation insights...but whereas luther was never quite sure if he had done enough to merit salvation...many lordship salvation adherents are never quite sure they have done enough to prove their election...
i would say any doctrine that attempts to more or less overturn the reformation's biblical salvation mindset is a harmful thing...
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R
make a list of actions that you think determine whether or not a person has christ as their lord and savior...you have already started making the list with this post...
when you are done...you will have a list of -works that you are making salvation dependent on-...instead of just God's grace through faith in christ...
and at that point you might as well just join the roman catholic church...the only difference will be that they have a more complicated list...
when you are done...you will have a list of -works that you are making salvation dependent on-...instead of just God's grace through faith in christ...
and at that point you might as well just join the roman catholic church...the only difference will be that they have a more complicated list...
R
i don't know of any critic of 'lordship salvation' who claims that you can separate jesus as savior and jesus as lord...
but 'lordship salvation' preaching seems to rely extensively on this kind of 'straw man' argument against doctrines that nobody actually teaches...
although there -was- one sermon by a popular 'lordship salvation' teacher where he argues that whether or not you trust in jesus as your savior...he is still your lord... wouldn't -that- be making a separation between jesus as savior and jesus as lord?
but 'lordship salvation' preaching seems to rely extensively on this kind of 'straw man' argument against doctrines that nobody actually teaches...
although there -was- one sermon by a popular 'lordship salvation' teacher where he argues that whether or not you trust in jesus as your savior...he is still your lord... wouldn't -that- be making a separation between jesus as savior and jesus as lord?
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My point was that it is the proponents of LS that make that separation.
Well every knee shall one day bow calling Him Lord whether ot not He was their Savior, just as many call on Him to save but by their actions deny Him as Lord.
So ok, let's say objectively He is Savior and Lord whether or not people receive Him as such.
Well every knee shall one day bow calling Him Lord whether ot not He was their Savior, just as many call on Him to save but by their actions deny Him as Lord.
So ok, let's say objectively He is Savior and Lord whether or not people receive Him as such.
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So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
...such as one of many cases...how can the morning star be referred to Jesus Christ and Satan? Do you think the scripture conflicts or is the conflict set within to keep the way from evil men.
...such as one of many cases...how can the morning star be referred to Jesus Christ and Satan? Do you think the scripture conflicts or is the conflict set within to keep the way from evil men.
L
What is Lordship salvation?
Question: "What is Lordship salvation?"
Answer: Lordship Salvation emphasizes that submitting to Christ as Lord over your life goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ to be saved. It also focuses on a changed life as the result of salvation. Those who believe in Lordship Salvation would have serious doubts about a person who claims to believe in Christ but does not have good works evident in his life. The Bible does teach that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22-23; James 2:14-26).
However, depending on the person and his circumstances, spiritual growth sometimes occurs quickly, and other times it takes a long time for changes to become evident, and even then the changes may not be evident to everyone. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is by faith alone, apart from works (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). The Bible also declares that a life changes after salvation (Ephesians 2:10). So it is a difficult balance to make. We do know, however, that we are not to judge another as to the state of his/her eternal soul (Matthew 7:1). Only God knows who are His sheep and He will mature each of us according to His perfect time table.
So, is Lordship Salvation biblical? Again, it cannot be denied that faith in Christ produces a change (2 Corinthians 5:17). A person who has been delivered from sin by faith in Christ should not desire to remain in a life of sin (Romans 6:2). At the same time, submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an issue of spiritual growth, not salvation. The Christian life is a process of submitting to God in increasing measure (2 Peter 1:5-8). A person does not have to submit to God in every area of his or her life in order to be saved. A person simply has to recognize that he or she is a sinner, in need of Jesus Christ for salvation, and place trust in Him (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10). Christians absolutely should submit to Him (James 4:7). A changed life and submission to Christ's lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.
S
I don't think you need a list nor do I see it as works. Lordship is evident in how, and who you live your life for. In general do you obey the Lord or disregard Him. I thought the examples were good I gave as they show a life style of sin. Man falls into sin he doesn't dive head first into it. Christians hate their sin.
Thus it is possible that a serial murderer or a pornographer can still be an active participant in murder or pornography and be "saved" according to this mode of thinking.
The problem here is simply a false view of what salvation is, where it is perceived as purely forensic and as such is separate from an actual transformation of the heart. Under the above stated view the transformation of heart occurs sometime after salvation instead of at the same time as salvation.
Jesus came to set people free from their sin as opposed to setting people free in their sin.
A serial murderer and a pornographer are enslaved to sin and therefore are the servants of sin. These people obey sin instead of obeying righteousness. If these people are set free from this bondage through Jesus Christ via grace (the quickening power of God) through faith (abiding willingly in that power) then this service of sin has ceased. There is nothing forensic in this situation whereby one can then fall into the error of the bolded statement in the quote above.
Paul wrote on this very clearly...
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; "Quickened" literally means "made alive."
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. "Conversation" means "conduct" and Paul is referring to how those whom are saved "once walked." It is the lost who walk in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind, and whom are therefore "children of wrath." Their spiritual state begets the wrath of God because they are in rebellion to God in that they choose to serve evil.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
The quickening brings one from a dead state (being unreconciled, condemned and dead to God) to a living state (reconciled, uncondemned and alive to God). Paul annotates this quickening as being by the grace of God.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: The quickening involves a raising up, a resurrection so to speak.
Paul speaks of this raising up elsewhere...
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The bondage of sin is broken through dying with Christ and a new bondage to righteousness takes its place when we are raised up with Christ. Hence the "old conduct" is in "times past."
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Again Paul writes on how the Christian puts off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, a circumcision of the heart, a transformation of the inward man. This transformation of the inward man necessitates the outer transformation. We are "saved by grace" THROUGH "faith" and not of ourselves and not of works (ie. anything we could do apart from the quickening power of God).
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The "Lordship Salvation" debate is erroneous because those for and against are promoting a forensic view of salvation which completely separates a transformed heart from being set free from sin.
There is no salvation without heart transformation. There is no salvation in the continued service of sin. It is Satan who wants to deceive people into believing in a forensic salvation in order they they believe they can "sin and not surely die" (ie. rebel against God and not surely die).
No genuinely saved individual is in rebellion to God. The rebellion has ceased. They may not know much but their heart is clean and in this state growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ is possible. A sheep may be immature but a sheep may not be a rebel to God.
God bless.
The problem here is simply a false view of what salvation is, where it is perceived as purely forensic and as such is separate from an actual transformation of the heart. Under the above stated view the transformation of heart occurs sometime after salvation instead of at the same time as salvation.
Jesus came to set people free from their sin as opposed to setting people free in their sin.
A serial murderer and a pornographer are enslaved to sin and therefore are the servants of sin. These people obey sin instead of obeying righteousness. If these people are set free from this bondage through Jesus Christ via grace (the quickening power of God) through faith (abiding willingly in that power) then this service of sin has ceased. There is nothing forensic in this situation whereby one can then fall into the error of the bolded statement in the quote above.
Paul wrote on this very clearly...
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; "Quickened" literally means "made alive."
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. "Conversation" means "conduct" and Paul is referring to how those whom are saved "once walked." It is the lost who walk in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind, and whom are therefore "children of wrath." Their spiritual state begets the wrath of God because they are in rebellion to God in that they choose to serve evil.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
The quickening brings one from a dead state (being unreconciled, condemned and dead to God) to a living state (reconciled, uncondemned and alive to God). Paul annotates this quickening as being by the grace of God.Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: The quickening involves a raising up, a resurrection so to speak.
Paul speaks of this raising up elsewhere...
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The bondage of sin is broken through dying with Christ and a new bondage to righteousness takes its place when we are raised up with Christ. Hence the "old conduct" is in "times past."
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Again Paul writes on how the Christian puts off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, a circumcision of the heart, a transformation of the inward man. This transformation of the inward man necessitates the outer transformation. We are "saved by grace" THROUGH "faith" and not of ourselves and not of works (ie. anything we could do apart from the quickening power of God).
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The "Lordship Salvation" debate is erroneous because those for and against are promoting a forensic view of salvation which completely separates a transformed heart from being set free from sin.
There is no salvation without heart transformation. There is no salvation in the continued service of sin. It is Satan who wants to deceive people into believing in a forensic salvation in order they they believe they can "sin and not surely die" (ie. rebel against God and not surely die).
No genuinely saved individual is in rebellion to God. The rebellion has ceased. They may not know much but their heart is clean and in this state growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ is possible. A sheep may be immature but a sheep may not be a rebel to God.
God bless.
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Thus it is possible that a serial murderer or a pornographer can still be an active participant in murder or pornography and be "saved" according to this mode of thinking.
The problem here is simply a false view of what salvation is, where it is perceived as purely forensic and as such is separate from an actual transformation of the heart. Under the above stated view the transformation of heart occurs sometime after salvation instead of at the same time as salvation.
Jesus came to set people free from their sin as opposed to setting people free in their sin.
A serial murderer and a pornographer are enslaved to sin and therefore are the servants of sin. These people obey sin instead of obeying righteousness. If these people are set free from this bondage through Jesus Christ via grace (the quickening power of God) through faith (abiding willingly in that power) then this service of sin has ceased. There is nothing forensic in this situation whereby one can then fall into the error of the bolded statement in the quote above.
Paul wrote on this very clearly...
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; "Quickened" literally means "made alive."
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. "Conversation" means "conduct" and Paul is referring to how those whom are saved "once walked." It is the lost who walk in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind, and whom are therefore "children of wrath." Their spiritual state begets the wrath of God because they are in rebellion to God in that they choose to serve evil.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved The quickening brings one from a dead state (being unreconciled, condemned and dead to God) to a living state (reconciled, uncondemned and alive to God). Paul annotates this quickening as being by the grace of God.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: The quickening involves a raising up, a resurrection so to speak.
Paul speaks of this raising up elsewhere...
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The bondage of sin is broken through dying with Christ and a new bondage to righteousness takes its place when we are raised up with Christ. Hence the "old conduct" is in "times past."
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Again Paul writes on how the Christian puts off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, a circumcision of the heart, a transformation of the inward man. This transformation of the inward man necessitates the outer transformation. We are "saved by grace" THROUGH "faith" and not of ourselves and not of works (ie. anything we could do apart from the quickening power of God).
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The "Lordship Salvation" debate is erroneous because those for and against are promoting a forensic view of salvation which completely separates a transformed heart from being set free from sin.
There is no salvation without heart transformation. There is no salvation in the continued service of sin. It is Satan who wants to deceive people into believing in a forensic salvation in order they they believe they can "sin and not surely die" (ie. rebel against God and not surely die).
No genuinely saved individual is in rebellion to God. The rebellion has ceased. They may not know much but their heart is clean and in this state growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ is possible. A sheep may be immature but a sheep may not be a rebel to God.
God bless.
The problem here is simply a false view of what salvation is, where it is perceived as purely forensic and as such is separate from an actual transformation of the heart. Under the above stated view the transformation of heart occurs sometime after salvation instead of at the same time as salvation.
Jesus came to set people free from their sin as opposed to setting people free in their sin.
A serial murderer and a pornographer are enslaved to sin and therefore are the servants of sin. These people obey sin instead of obeying righteousness. If these people are set free from this bondage through Jesus Christ via grace (the quickening power of God) through faith (abiding willingly in that power) then this service of sin has ceased. There is nothing forensic in this situation whereby one can then fall into the error of the bolded statement in the quote above.
Paul wrote on this very clearly...
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; "Quickened" literally means "made alive."
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. "Conversation" means "conduct" and Paul is referring to how those whom are saved "once walked." It is the lost who walk in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind, and whom are therefore "children of wrath." Their spiritual state begets the wrath of God because they are in rebellion to God in that they choose to serve evil.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
The quickening brings one from a dead state (being unreconciled, condemned and dead to God) to a living state (reconciled, uncondemned and alive to God). Paul annotates this quickening as being by the grace of God.Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: The quickening involves a raising up, a resurrection so to speak.
Paul speaks of this raising up elsewhere...
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The bondage of sin is broken through dying with Christ and a new bondage to righteousness takes its place when we are raised up with Christ. Hence the "old conduct" is in "times past."
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Again Paul writes on how the Christian puts off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, a circumcision of the heart, a transformation of the inward man. This transformation of the inward man necessitates the outer transformation. We are "saved by grace" THROUGH "faith" and not of ourselves and not of works (ie. anything we could do apart from the quickening power of God).
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The "Lordship Salvation" debate is erroneous because those for and against are promoting a forensic view of salvation which completely separates a transformed heart from being set free from sin.
There is no salvation without heart transformation. There is no salvation in the continued service of sin. It is Satan who wants to deceive people into believing in a forensic salvation in order they they believe they can "sin and not surely die" (ie. rebel against God and not surely die).
No genuinely saved individual is in rebellion to God. The rebellion has ceased. They may not know much but their heart is clean and in this state growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ is possible. A sheep may be immature but a sheep may not be a rebel to God.
God bless.
Would this be an issue of semantics?
The legal definition that applies to the term "forensic" pertains the use of an argument (ie. stated position) in a court of law. Many theologians use the term within the context of the "position" which someone holds independent of their "manifest state." In other words many theologians will teach that one can be "positionally" in Christ whilst not "manifestly" in Christ. This sentiment is evident in the OP of this thread, especially in the section bolded in my quote.
Being reconciled clearly is inclusive of a "declared" or "forensic" pardon whereby a declaration of righteousness is made by God which overlooks past rebellion. In other words the declaration of righteousness must exclude part of the picture (former rebellion) which is where the mercy of God is evident.
If we look at Abraham and how God reckoned his faith as righteousness we clearly see how this declaration of righteousness is connected to Abraham's faithfulness.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
...
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Abraham "walked in the steps" of faith because his faith was the real thing. Abraham truly believed God from the heart and therefore abided in God's will. A genuine faith necessitates the steps of that faith, hence a faith without works is dead. Faith is the inner dynamic of the heart whereby one yields themselves or abides in the grace of God.
The OP teaches the opposite of that because it disconnects "justification" from "sanctification." The OP disconnects salvation from a "working faith" because it teaches that the "transformation of outer action" can occur "later" on. The OP teaches that the "working faith" is something that happens "after" salvation as opposed as something happening in "conjunction" with salvation.
Again I quote...
In reality a total transformation will be evident to everyone immediately upon an individual becoming born again. Sure a new believer needs to mature and learn many things but that does not negate the fact of a total transformation already having taken place. The new birth necessitates heart transformation. Repentance also necessitates heart transformation. The new birth is conditional upon a genuine repentance because God will not transform someone against their will.
A serial murderer or a pornographer (likewise a thief, adulterer, liar) forsakes their rebellious and immoral conduct in repentance when they die with Christ. They put off the old man by the circumcision of the heart wrought via the conviction of God. With the rebellion ceasing the power of God is able to manifest in that individual because they are no longer resisting it. They are no longer rejecting the implanted seed of the word of God but are embracing it. Thus that individual is able to experience the new birth wrought by the power of God as they are raised from darkness to light. To claim that no external change will be necessarily noticeable is ludicrous and clearly show a disconnect where an understanding of salvation is concerned.
Again Jesus came to set people free from the bondage of sin. Jesus did not come to set people free and leave them in bondage. The soul that sins shall die and God's plan involves stopping people sinning (ceasing from rebellion). The sin I am speaking of here is within the context of rebellion to God, wickedness, selfishness. The opposite of this sin is love, loving God and loving one's neighbour. The salvation of God brings us from a state of selfishness (where we served sin) to a state of benevolence (where we serve righteousness) via a total transformation of the inner man (saved by grace through faith) by the Spirit of God.
The legal definition that applies to the term "forensic" pertains the use of an argument (ie. stated position) in a court of law. Many theologians use the term within the context of the "position" which someone holds independent of their "manifest state." In other words many theologians will teach that one can be "positionally" in Christ whilst not "manifestly" in Christ. This sentiment is evident in the OP of this thread, especially in the section bolded in my quote.
Being reconciled clearly is inclusive of a "declared" or "forensic" pardon whereby a declaration of righteousness is made by God which overlooks past rebellion. In other words the declaration of righteousness must exclude part of the picture (former rebellion) which is where the mercy of God is evident.
If we look at Abraham and how God reckoned his faith as righteousness we clearly see how this declaration of righteousness is connected to Abraham's faithfulness.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
...
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Abraham "walked in the steps" of faith because his faith was the real thing. Abraham truly believed God from the heart and therefore abided in God's will. A genuine faith necessitates the steps of that faith, hence a faith without works is dead. Faith is the inner dynamic of the heart whereby one yields themselves or abides in the grace of God.
The OP teaches the opposite of that because it disconnects "justification" from "sanctification." The OP disconnects salvation from a "working faith" because it teaches that the "transformation of outer action" can occur "later" on. The OP teaches that the "working faith" is something that happens "after" salvation as opposed as something happening in "conjunction" with salvation.
Again I quote...
In reality a total transformation will be evident to everyone immediately upon an individual becoming born again. Sure a new believer needs to mature and learn many things but that does not negate the fact of a total transformation already having taken place. The new birth necessitates heart transformation. Repentance also necessitates heart transformation. The new birth is conditional upon a genuine repentance because God will not transform someone against their will.
A serial murderer or a pornographer (likewise a thief, adulterer, liar) forsakes their rebellious and immoral conduct in repentance when they die with Christ. They put off the old man by the circumcision of the heart wrought via the conviction of God. With the rebellion ceasing the power of God is able to manifest in that individual because they are no longer resisting it. They are no longer rejecting the implanted seed of the word of God but are embracing it. Thus that individual is able to experience the new birth wrought by the power of God as they are raised from darkness to light. To claim that no external change will be necessarily noticeable is ludicrous and clearly show a disconnect where an understanding of salvation is concerned.
Again Jesus came to set people free from the bondage of sin. Jesus did not come to set people free and leave them in bondage. The soul that sins shall die and God's plan involves stopping people sinning (ceasing from rebellion). The sin I am speaking of here is within the context of rebellion to God, wickedness, selfishness. The opposite of this sin is love, loving God and loving one's neighbour. The salvation of God brings us from a state of selfishness (where we served sin) to a state of benevolence (where we serve righteousness) via a total transformation of the inner man (saved by grace through faith) by the Spirit of God.
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I am declaring an "instant sanctification" within the context of a total transformation of the heart. There is also a growth process described by Paul as "the perfecting of the saints." This growth is where we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as we are taught as children.
I am not alluding to "perfection" upon being "born again." Rather I am alluding to the total transformation which takes place upon being born again where old things have passed away and all things made new. This is not a change that comes some time down the road which is what the Linda's post is alluding to.
To make the claim that...
... is simply erroneous. Changes not evident to everyone? That is nonsense. If there was no outward change then there was no inward change. Outer conduct is a reflection of an inward state hence...
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I apologise to alluding previously that my quotation was from the OP. It was from Linda's post and for some reason I thought it was the opening post (I think my browser did not show all the posts). This mistake on my part is a good example of "doing wrong" unintentionally. I make mistakes.
When John speaks of the children of God being manifest in that they cannot sin it is within the context that one cannot be in rebellion to God and be born of God at the same time. Linda's post depicts the opposite of that.
The distinction between "Saviour and Lord" is really just words games in my opinion. One could use other descriptive terms like "teacher" too but we cannot treat the different aspects of Jesus as a menu. We either embrace Jesus as a whole or we do not.
I am not alluding to "perfection" upon being "born again." Rather I am alluding to the total transformation which takes place upon being born again where old things have passed away and all things made new. This is not a change that comes some time down the road which is what the Linda's post is alluding to.
To make the claim that...
... is simply erroneous. Changes not evident to everyone? That is nonsense. If there was no outward change then there was no inward change. Outer conduct is a reflection of an inward state hence...
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I apologise to alluding previously that my quotation was from the OP. It was from Linda's post and for some reason I thought it was the opening post (I think my browser did not show all the posts). This mistake on my part is a good example of "doing wrong" unintentionally. I make mistakes.
When John speaks of the children of God being manifest in that they cannot sin it is within the context that one cannot be in rebellion to God and be born of God at the same time. Linda's post depicts the opposite of that.
The distinction between "Saviour and Lord" is really just words games in my opinion. One could use other descriptive terms like "teacher" too but we cannot treat the different aspects of Jesus as a menu. We either embrace Jesus as a whole or we do not.
The term "carnal Christian" is a contrivance wrought out of a false understanding of salvation rooted in the notion that the flesh itself is sinful (Gnostic Dualism). John MacArthur is particularly deceptive in this area because while he rejects the idea of the "carnal Christian" as a category, he accepts the idea of the "disobedient Christian" as a result of being trapped in a flesh body.
Here is a good John MacArthur clip where he teaches this error.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_dx1zy7ysE
John MacArthur unfortunately believes that "flesh" itself is sinful and that all humans beings are "born with a sin disease." Thus in his theology a total transformation of heart is not possible in this life because the flesh handicaps the spirit. This is exactly the same sentiment found in ancient gnostic teachings.
This sentiment found its way into Christian theology in the early years of the Catholic Church and has been refined ever since. Don't fall for it. Sin is not a disease, sin is a choice. Sin is a moral issue, not an issue of flesh and blood. The flesh tempts us but the heart is what drives us.
Here is a good John MacArthur clip where he teaches this error.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_dx1zy7ysE
John MacArthur unfortunately believes that "flesh" itself is sinful and that all humans beings are "born with a sin disease." Thus in his theology a total transformation of heart is not possible in this life because the flesh handicaps the spirit. This is exactly the same sentiment found in ancient gnostic teachings.
This sentiment found its way into Christian theology in the early years of the Catholic Church and has been refined ever since. Don't fall for it. Sin is not a disease, sin is a choice. Sin is a moral issue, not an issue of flesh and blood. The flesh tempts us but the heart is what drives us.
L
Skinski,
You speak as if a person's entire sin nature is eradicated at salvation. What does a "babe in Christ" need to do? This process is called "growth" or "sanctification" A "baby" doesn't mature overnight.
1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
What about a "carnal" Christian?
When one is truly born again, that person is "new creature in Christ Jesus" (2 Cor. 5:17). The "desire" of that person will not to "continue in sin" (Romans 6:1-2, 15). But a truly born again Christian doesn't become "mature" overnight (or immediately) as you are implying here. In 1 Cor. 3, the apostle Paul called the Corinthians "brethren", but also called them "carnal":
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Some use carnality as an excuse to cover up an unregenerate heart. There is a heaven and hell difference between a carnal Christian who is grieving and quenching the Spirit ("saved so as by fire") and an unsaved person who is walking after the flesh. It is not always easy to tell them apart. Sometimes those we presume to be saved may not be saved at all.
In chapter 6 of the same epistle, he said:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
The apostle Paul's "struggle" with his sin nature is recorded in Romans 7. There are some who teach that Paul was speaking of his unsaved/unregenerate condition...before he was saved, but that is not the case, as he demonstrates in verses 20-22:
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
As born again believers in Christ Jesus, we all grow...we are all being "conformed" to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). However, we do not all grow in Christ at the same rate, and we certainly don't all become TOTALLY conformed (or transformed) instantaneously or overnight! Do all your children grow at the same rate?
"Every Christian will bear spiritual fruit. Somewhere, sometime, somehow. Otherwise that person is not a believer. Every born-again individual will be fruitful. Not to be fruitful is to be faithless, without faith, and therefore without salvation . . . Every Christian will bear fruit; otherwise he or she is not a true believer" (Charles C. Ryrie, So Great Salvation, pages 45-46).
You speak as if a person's entire sin nature is eradicated at salvation. What does a "babe in Christ" need to do? This process is called "growth" or "sanctification" A "baby" doesn't mature overnight.
1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
What about a "carnal" Christian?
When one is truly born again, that person is "new creature in Christ Jesus" (2 Cor. 5:17). The "desire" of that person will not to "continue in sin" (Romans 6:1-2, 15). But a truly born again Christian doesn't become "mature" overnight (or immediately) as you are implying here. In 1 Cor. 3, the apostle Paul called the Corinthians "brethren", but also called them "carnal":
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Some use carnality as an excuse to cover up an unregenerate heart. There is a heaven and hell difference between a carnal Christian who is grieving and quenching the Spirit ("saved so as by fire") and an unsaved person who is walking after the flesh. It is not always easy to tell them apart. Sometimes those we presume to be saved may not be saved at all.
In chapter 6 of the same epistle, he said:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
The apostle Paul's "struggle" with his sin nature is recorded in Romans 7. There are some who teach that Paul was speaking of his unsaved/unregenerate condition...before he was saved, but that is not the case, as he demonstrates in verses 20-22:
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
As born again believers in Christ Jesus, we all grow...we are all being "conformed" to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). However, we do not all grow in Christ at the same rate, and we certainly don't all become TOTALLY conformed (or transformed) instantaneously or overnight! Do all your children grow at the same rate?
"Every Christian will bear spiritual fruit. Somewhere, sometime, somehow. Otherwise that person is not a believer. Every born-again individual will be fruitful. Not to be fruitful is to be faithless, without faith, and therefore without salvation . . . Every Christian will bear fruit; otherwise he or she is not a true believer" (Charles C. Ryrie, So Great Salvation, pages 45-46).