Galatians & Keeping The Commandments - Was Paul Anti-Torah?

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-9Jq5x8qu0

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apaXg_oRkc0

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6WIiPOEQ5c

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLLiIJXxuHA

5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTPMKDHB0kY

6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSKaZ_to1CQ

7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUvQ137-Ze0

8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8z6SxYxu0E

9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riIpWYXWLKU

I hope that, in your pursuit of Truth; you will take the time to watch these videos.

No thanks if you want to just write a 1-2 paragraph summary that would be great!

Originally Posted by Definition_Christ

No thanks if you want to just write a 1-2 paragraph summary that would be great!

Why does the thought of keeping the Teachings of our Father, make so many angry?
I do not understand.

The law is good and Holy Paul said if a man use it lawfully....


But you cannot be righteous through the Law ...it's through Christ...Paul forbids keeping feast to appease God since we have an indwelling permently of the Holy Spirit.

'

Originally Posted by ASSIYAH

Why does the thought of keeping the Teachings of our Father, make so many angry?
I do not understand.

I didn't feel like watching 9 youtube videos. Sorry, not sure how you interpreted I wasn't interested in Torah or got angry.

[Thaddaeus]

Originally Posted by ASSIYAH

Why does the thought of keeping the Teachings of our Father, make so many angry?
I do not understand.

the thought of keeping the law is not what makes one angry. for the law was a schoolmaster,teaching us that

Ro 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

but rather what angers one is that some believe and also want to push this on others; that we can add to the works of Christ, who has fulfilled the law. if the Holy Righteous one Of God has fulfilled then what else above this are we able to do to please the Father, other than to do His will and believe on the one Whom He has sent.

[wattie]

Paul used the Torah to reason with the Pharisees and Scribes about Jesus Christ!!

He could not do this if it did not support Jesus!

Whenever Paul mentions 'scriptures'-- what do you think he is referring to? It is the Torah.. the Old Testament.

Anti-torah? No way! Fulfilling and uplifting the Torah through revealing Jesus from it contents? Yes!

[Thaddaeus]

Originally Posted by ASSIYAH

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-9Jq5x8qu0

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apaXg_oRkc0

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6WIiPOEQ5c

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLLiIJXxuHA

5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTPMKDHB0kY

6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSKaZ_to1CQ

7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUvQ137-Ze0

8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8z6SxYxu0E

9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riIpWYXWLKU

ok I watched the first one on the list, well most of it anyhow. but before I go any father will you promise to watch 2 videos for me on grace and not under the law. , also I find it really interesting that this teacher, uses paul's teachings in romans and timothy, to prove a point that paul is wrong in galatians. I mean how two faced is that, that paul was wrong in one book, but we can use paul's teaching in other areas isn't this picking and choosing what parts of the Bible we want to believe??

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by Definition_Christ

I didn't feel like watching 9 youtube videos. Sorry, not sure how you interpreted I wasn't interested in Torah or got angry.

King David himself said that it wasn't the blood of animal sacrifices God really wanted, but a true and repentant heart.
I don't believe it was the law as law that Paul hated, it was the fact that sin used the law to condemn man, this is why Jesus died on the cross, may I explain my thoughts.
What shall we say then, is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said. "Do not covet". But sin, seizing the oppurtunity afforded by the commandment produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that wasintended to bring life actually brought death.
For sin, seizing the oppurtunity afforded by the commandment deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. Rom7:7-11
Paul tried his hardest to obey the law, but sin used the good laws of God to condemn him.
In 1Cor15:56 Paul says. 'The power of sin is the law.'

Abraham himself was declared righteous because of his faith.
'Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Rom4:3

But Paul did believe the good laws of God should be followed, but the ritualistic sacrifices were no longer neccessary. Christ paid the price of our sin once and for all on the cross.

If you would like I can explain furth, please let me know if you would. Paul believed that by faith in Jesus we would find ourselves far more upholding the law, than we ever could whilst it was our judge.

Originally Posted by Thaddaeus

ok I watched the first one on the list, well most of it anyhow. but before I go any father will you promise to watch 2 videos for me on grace and not under the law. , also I find it really interesting that this teacher, uses paul's teachings in romans and timothy, to prove a point that paul is wrong in galatians. I mean how two faced is that, that paul was wrong in one book, but we can use paul's teaching in other areas isn't this picking and choosing what parts of the Bible we want to believe??

He was NOT saying Paul was wrong in one book.
He was saying your understanding of Paul is wrong.

Paul never contradicts himself.

[truthseeker1976]

Originally Posted by CIRBaptist

The law is good and Holy Paul said if a man use it lawfully....


But you cannot be righteous through the Law ...it's through Christ...Paul forbids keeping feast to appease God since we have an indwelling permently of the Holy Spirit.

'

If we realize that we're still in God's sabbath day people would realize fully what paul means.

Originally Posted by ASSIYAH

Paul never contradicts himself.

The law is holy, righteous and good and without the law we would not know what sin is / Rom 3:20. The law was given so that every mouth might be shut and the whole world become guilty before God / Rom 5:19. The law was established to make all men sinners and to make sin exceedingly sinful / Rom 7:13.

When the woman that was caught in the act of adultery in (John 8) and was brought into the temple where Jesus was teaching, they wanted to stone her according to the law. They had the witnesses according to the law to bring the charge against her (Deut 15 &19) and all they needed to do was execute the sentence. Christ used the purpose of the law (to reveal sin) to condemn her accusers when He charged them to stone her if any of them were without sin. According to the law they had to judge themselves as sinners who had transgressed the law and went out of the temple condemning themselves as guilty.

The law gave them the right to stone the adulterous woman, but because of their own sin they could not do it. The very law that was used to condemn this woman to death by stoning, was the same law that condemned the accusers of their own sin. When they had finally left the temple, Jesus did not condemn her by stoning, even though He was qualified to do so because He was without sin. The law gave permission to condemn her by stoning her, but Jesus did not fulfill the law or execute that sentence, but rather gave her mercy and sent her away with an exhortation of grace, to go and sin no more. Jesus came by grace and truth and did not come to condemn but to save the world through grace / Jn 3:17.

The law is holy, righteous and good but we are no longer under the conviction of the law but of the Holy Spirit / Jn 16:8. If we sin we are guilty according to the law, but we are given grace to be forgiven and cleansed from sin because we are under grace and not the penalty of the law / Rom 6:14. The penalty of the law was fulfilled by Christ on the cross when He by the grace of God tasted death for every man / Heb 2:9. He paid the wages of our sin through His own death and through His death we are no longer under the law of condemnation of sin and death but we have been made free and put under grace through the law of the Spirit of life / Rom 8:2. The law can not make us perfect, only grace can through the blood of Christ / Heb 10:1-14.

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by shad

The law is holy, righteous and good and without the law we would not know what sin is / Rom 3:20. The law was given so that every mouth might be shut and the whole world become guilty before God / Rom 5:19. The law was established to make all men sinners and to make sin exceedingly sinful / Rom 7:13.

When the woman that was caught in the act of adultery in (John 8) and was brought into the temple where Jesus was teaching, they wanted to stone her according to the law. They had the witnesses according to the law to bring the charge against her (Deut 15 &19) and all they needed to do was execute the sentence. Christ used the purpose of the law (to reveal sin) to condemn her accusers when He charged them to stone her if any of them were without sin. According to the law they had to judge themselves as sinners who had transgressed the law and went out of the temple condemning themselves as guilty.

The law gave them the right to stone the adulterous woman, but because of their own sin they could not do it. The very law that was used to condemn this woman to death by stoning, was the same law that condemned the accusers of their own sin. When they had finally left the temple, Jesus did not condemn her by stoning, even though He was qualified to do so because He was without sin. The law gave permission to condemn her by stoning her, but Jesus did not fulfill the law or execute that sentence, but rather gave her mercy and sent her away with an exhortation of grace, to go and sin no more. Jesus came by grace and truth and did not come to condemn but to save the world through grace / Jn 3:17.

The law is holy, righteous and good but we are no longer under the conviction of the law but of the Holy Spirit / Jn 16:8. If we sin we are guilty according to the law, but we are given grace to be forgiven and cleansed from sin because we are under grace and not the penalty of the law / Rom 6:14. The penalty of the law was fulfilled by Christ on the cross when He by the grace of God tasted death for every man / Heb 2:9. He paid the wages of our sin through His own death and through His death we are no longer under the law of condemnation of sin and death but we have been made free and put under grace through the law of the Spirit of life / Rom 8:2. The law can not make us perfect, only grace can through the blood of Christ / Heb 10:1-14.

Marvelous answer.

May I ask you something? If we sin we are guilty according to the law

But can we be guilty according to the law as it was written?
Paul says on three occassions the law has been, abolished, cancelled, and Christ is the end of the law.
Now I accept we still sin, as they did before the law was given in the OT. But they could not be guilty of sin according to the law as it had not been given. Can we be guilty according to law that has gone?

To me God's laws are now written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, thereby making us want to obey them, because they are on our hearts. But not all 613 laws from the OT.

John said. This is His command, that you believe in His Son Jesus Christ and love one another.
Paul says. Love fulfills the law.

Personally this is the way I try and see it. I know of course there is much we must, and should not do. But I believe if I focus on what I should not do, there is actually more chance I may end up doing that which I should not do. If instead I look to Jesus knowing he died for my sins and to end the law as my condemnation, I find I far less do what I should not do. I hope that makes sense lol.

Please it is not I really disagree with you, but as you made your point so well, I would respect your answer to my comment

God Bless

[truthseeker1976]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

Marvelous answer.

May I ask you something? If we sin we are guilty according to the law

But can we be guilty according to the law as it was written?
Paul says on three occassions the law has been, abolished, cancelled, and Christ is the end of the law.
Now I accept we still sin, as they did before the law was given in the OT. But they could not be guilty of sin according to the law as it had not been given. Can we be guilty according to law that has gone?

To me God's laws are now written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, thereby making us want to obey them, because they are on our hearts. But not all 613 laws from the OT.

John said. This is His command, that you believe in His Son Jesus Christ and love one another.
Paul says. Love fulfills the law.

Personally this is the way I try and see it. I know of course there is much we must, and should not do. But I believe if I focus on what I should not do, there is actually more chance I may end up doing that which I should not do. If instead I look to Jesus knowing he died for my sins and to end the law as my condemnation, I find I far less do what I should not do. I hope that makes sense lol.

Please it is not I really disagree with you, but as you made your point so well, I would respect your answer to my comment

God Bless

The only part of the law that is spiritual is God's moral law. A person can know that it is wrong to steal or to kill without ever having to touch a Bible. The letter of the law was truly nailed to the cross! But the stumbling stone is the 4th commandment! It is a moral law and therefore spiritual. The letter of the Law stated that we were to rest every seventh day; what we call Saturday. But how do we follow the spirit of the 4th commandment? Once we understand this then we will truly find rest. It never stated that the Sabbath day ended in Genesis. This is still God's spiritual sabbath day of rest. And if we can all realize this then we can truly understand that If we love God with all our beings and love our neighbor as ourselves, we fufill the spiritual law.

Every believer has (2) histories. The first is when he was born in Adam and the old sin nature that is of the flesh that lives in the world and is earthly. Secondly, when he was born again in Christ and became the new man that is hid with Christ in God which is of the Spirit and is heavenly / Col 3:3, 1Cor 15:47. We have these (2) histories, one in Adam and the other in Christ (the second Adam / 1Cor 15:45). In the first Adam all die but in Christ (the 2nd Adam) all are made alive / 1Cor 15:22.

The 1st Adam lives under the law without grace, the 2nd Adam lives under grace through being quickened by the Spirit. If we choose to live under the law then we will be judged by the law and will never have life because of sin and its wages of death/ Rom 2:12, Rom 7:5, Rom 6:23. The law does not recognize the cross and what it did to the 1st Adam through death. The law that came by Moses condemns the sinner (the 1st Adam) in his flesh as a transgressor but has no power to condemn sin through death. Only Christ was sent to condemn sin in His own flesh through death so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us / Rom 8:3,4.

Christ fulfilled the righteousness of the the law as a perfect man and abolished the demands and penalties of the law through death. When we believe upon the work of righteousness that Christ accomplished on the cross, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us by faith. The 1st Adam (the old man) is crucified with Christ and the 2nd Adam is raised with Christ unto justification / Rom 4:23-25. The history of the old man and all the old things have passed away (that were under the law) and all things have become new (that are under grace) / 2Cor 5:17. If our righteousness comes by the law then Christ died in vain / Gal 2:21. But our righteousness comes by faith in Christ / Rom 3:22. We receive the Spirit not by the works of the law but by the hearing of faith / Gal 3:2,5.

Anything that we receive by the works and righteousness of the law, does not come by faith nor is it given by grace. It has no life but is a ministration of death that belongs to the 1st Adam and was abolished through Christ / 2Cor 3:1-14. We are to put off the old man that lives according to the law and put on the new man that is renewed through the Spirit. If we sin and become a transgressor of the law we fulfill the righteousness of God by putting on Christ, the new man, the 2nd Adam. We do not have to strive or struggle to do this. We do this from a place of rest and by faith through the operation of God / Heb 4:9-11, Col 2:12.

No, Paul was never anti-Torah in fact quite the opposite! A careful reading of Rav Sha'ul’s biography in the book of Acts reveals that he taught and practiced faithful obedience to the “least commandment” of Torah — including “the tradition of the elders.” In his defense before King Agrippa, he said,
“… I am about to make my defense before you today; especially because you are an expert in all customs and questions among the Jews; therefore I beg you to listen to me patiently. So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem; since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.” (Acts 26:1-5)
Look at the last event of his life as recorded in Acts 28:
“After three days Sha'ul called a meeting of the local Jewish leaders. When they had gathered, he said to them: ‘Brothers, although I have done nothing against either our people or the traditions of our fathers, I was made a prisoner in Yerushalayim and handed over to the Romans. …’ They said to him, ‘We have not received any letters about you from Y'hudah, and none of the brothers who have come from there has reported or said anything bad about you.’”
These people with whom he was speaking were the “local Jewish leaders” in Rome who were extremely familiar with the most minute detail of both the Torah and the Tradition of the Elders. Rav Sha'ul said that he has not offended in even the slightest provision of “the traditions of our fathers” and they agreed that nobody, not even the strictest of the Pharisees, “has reported or said anything bad about you.” If the Torah was no longer in effect for Rav Sha'ul, then he would not have kept the slightest provisions of even “traditions of our fathers” — it is simply inconceivable that he would have taught that Torah had been abolished and then continued to live under its strict application and interpretation.
Those who call obedience to God “legalism”, according to Yeshua, “will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.” However, we are obedient to Torah not in order to be saved, but because we have already been saved and have been empowered by Ruach HaKodesh to live according to G-d’s only standard of righteousness, the Torah.
The entire issue of “legalistic” stems from the erroneous teaching that “Jesus nailed the Law to the cross,” or some other way of saying that Yeshua abolished the Torah. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Consider this example of Yeshua’s teaching:
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law [Torah] until all is accomplished.” (Matt 5:18)
“… whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot [commandments] and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.” (Matthew 5:19)
Have heaven and earth passed away yet? If not, the entire Torah — every commandment, every word, every letter, the smallest part of every letter — is still in force and binding upon G-d’s people.
According to an accurate interpretation of the Scriptures, we are now, and have always been, “under the whole Torah (Law)” — the Torah is G-d’s only standard of righteousness. When we are “saved” (brought into a saving relationship with Yeshua HaMashiach) we are given the gift of the indwelling Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) Who enables us to live righteous lives in accordance with the whole Torah.
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works [obedience to Torah], which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” (Eph 2:10,)
“For we are of G-d’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions [obedience to Torah] already prepared by G-d for us to do.” (Eph 2:10)
The only provisions of Torah which are not applicable to the Believer today are (1) those Mitzvot (commandments) that apply to the Temple and its sacrificial system (because there is no Temple at this time — they will be applicable when the next Temple is dedicated), (2) those Mitzvot that apply to the civil rule of law under a theocratic government (there is no theocratic government at this time — they will be applicable when King Messiah returns and physically reigns on earth), or (3) those Mitzvot which apply only within Eretz Israel (the Land of Israel — Believers who live in Eretz Israel are subject to these Mitzvot; those in the Diaspora outside of Eretz Israel are not).
The reason that we (Messianic Jews) continue in Torah observance is that G-d requires it. The only portion of the Torah that has been set aside is that which deals with the ceremonial aspects of temple worship, because they were fulfilled in Yashua.
The One Who called Himself “I AM” — the One Who appeared to Moshe (Moses) on Mt. Sinai — the “I AM” who wrote the Torah (at least the Decalogue) in stone with His own finger and gave it to Moshe, was Yeshua or He was not telling the truth when He said before Abraham, “I AM”. The Torah, therefore, is the written record of “the commandments” (mitzvot) of Yeshua. Yeshua said, “If you love Me, keep My mitzvot (commandments)” (John 14:15). Since Yeshua’s mitzvot were given to Moshe at Sinai and recorded as the Torah, then Yeshua instructed us to keep the Torah if we love Him. Yeshua also said:
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law [the Torah] until all is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:17-18)
“But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.” (Luke 16:17)
If the above line of reasoning is correct, then the Torah consists of the words of Yeshua, about which He said:
Matthew 24:35: “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.”
Mark 8:38: “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Mark 13:31: “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.”
Luke 6:47: “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:”
Luke 9:26: “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.”
Luke 21:33: “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.”
Luke 24:44: “Now He said to them, ‘These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.’”
John 5:47: “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
John 14:24: “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.”
John 15:7: “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
Since Yeshua used the phrase “My words” to indicate his teaching (the Hebrew word for teaching or instruction is torah), then we can replace the phrase “My words” with “My Torah” in all of the above quotations, and still be accurate both logically and theologically.
1. The Torah is the Word of G-d.
2. All Believers are obligated to observe and follow the Word of G-d.
3. Therefore: All Believers are obligated to observe and follow the Torah of G-d.
Is obedience a condition of salvation? No. Disobedience of any kind is sin, which can be forgiven by G-d’s grace!
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of G-d; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [Most Gentile Christians stop reading at the end of verse 9.] 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which G-d prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them [that is, walk in—perform—the good works, obey the Torah]. (Eph. 2:8-10)
Do we then obey the Torah of G-d in order to be saved? No! Rather, we obey the Torah of G-d because we have been saved and created in Yeshua HaMashiach so that we would be able to do so! We obey His mitzvot [instruction, commandments, or torah] because He asked us to, and because we love Him.

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by ASSIYAH

Why does the thought of keeping the Teachings of our Father, make so many angry?
I do not understand.

unfortunately I have limited bandwidth that has to last me for the whole month before renewed, all 1GB of it.

[VW]

We seem to forget that even as God gave these covenant to the children of Israel, He said that they would not keep it. We forget that when God spoke the covenant from the holy mountain, which not even cattle could touch, that the people stood back and begged Moses to not let God speak to them, for if He did, they would die; only, they begged, let Moses speak to them. We forget that the law could not make anything perfect, and a perfect God demands a perfect people. This is why we are perfected by the Spirit's work in us, indivudially and together as a body, that we be presented to the Son as a bride, perfect and complete, worthy of Him. God in His wisdom has removed the old priesthood which was of the law, which has passed away, to be replaced with a more perfect priesthood, with a more perfect law, which is able to save those who believe. Even those under the old covenant were waiting for One to come who would bring salvation. Moses spoke of His coming, as did the prophets. They knew that the blood of bulls and goats could not remove sin, and these sacrifices were a necessary fact of the covenant of the law. And certainly not last or least, it is said that if a man believes in the law to keep the law, then he is accountable to the entire law, of which it it said, no man can keep the law.

There is a better way, which is not dead, but living and powerful, which will ensure the salvation of the one who believes. Jesus said, "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another even as I have loved you." And this commandment is not like the old commandments, which could not be kept, and thus had a whole system of rules and rites to allow the worshiper to have a form of fellowship with God, for this new commandment is fulfilled by God living in us by His Spirit. It is His power in us that lives the commandment. And it is the Son's life that He intercedes for us as we seek to live in the love of God by drawing near to Him.

In the last judgment, all deeds will be judged. Every word will be shown for what it was, every act will be revealed, every thought and every motive will be shown. We who are His will endure (this is the only way I can describe His judgment) revealing. And at the end, only those who have their name in the book of life will be excused, and those who are judged by the book of deeds will enter into eternal fire. The point? Those who trust in the law are trusting in their deeds.

In His peace,