Is it true there are 5 ministries, according to Eph 4:11

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May 3, 2013
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#1
I also am hearing it "rooted" or "spiritualized" when been compared to the issues Jesus told a Samaritan woman in:


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh4:16[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Jesus told her, "Go to [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]yourhusband[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif],and bring him here." [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh4:17[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] The woman replied, "I don't have a husband." Jesus toldher, "You're right when you say that you don't have a husband. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh4:18[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]You'vehad five husbands[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif],and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]theman you have now isn't your husband[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif].You've told the truth." [/FONT]




I wish I knew if this is a “local”teaching I´m hearing solely in Latin America.

If you want to share, I hope it be heard.

Thanks!
 
J

john316forall

Guest
#2
The "five fold" ministry being practiced today is not biblical. This teaching is also widespread throughout North America, and anywhere really that the pentacostal movement has gone. There are no modern day 'apostles' like the 12, nor are there modern day 'prophets' as in forth-telling the future outside of what Scripture has already revealed. I've never heard the comparison being made to John 4 - that's pretty bizarre, but then that's what happens when people try to prooftext through the Bible for the purpose of having Scripture support their views.
 
May 3, 2013
8,719
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#3
The "five fold" ministry being practiced today is not biblical. This teaching is also widespread throughout North America, and anywhere really that the pentacostal movement has gone. There are no modern day 'apostles' like the 12, nor are there modern day 'prophets' as in forth-telling the future outside of what Scripture has already revealed. I've never heard the comparison being made to John 4 - that's pretty bizarre, but then that's what happens when people try to prooftext through the Bible for the purpose of having Scripture support their views.
Thanks! So these are the pentecostals there (too). I thoght it was Benson Hinojosa and more people from Africa...

The more I read of man-made teachings the more I checked the O.T. plus Jesus.

Here is how I see it now (3) that could evolve the way He was pleased:

Mat 23:34 I'm sending you prophets, wise men, and teachers of the Scriptures. You will kill and crucify some of them. Others you will whip in your synagogues and persecute from city to city.

Mat 23:34 I will send prophets and wise people and experts in the Law of Moses to you. But you will kill them or nail them to a cross or beat them in your meeting places or chase them from town to town.

Luk 11:49 Because of your evil deeds, the Wisdom of God said, "I will send prophets and apostles to you. But you will murder some and mistreat others."

Luk 16:29 Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that."

I have a friend, who is also a pastor, who is so in love with that pentecostal teaching that I will not atend those services any more...

I don´t care what Paul may say...
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
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#4
I also am hearing it "rooted" or "spiritualized" when been compared to the issues Jesus told a Samaritan woman in:


Joh4:16 Jesus told her, "Go to yourhusband,and bring him here."
Joh4:17 The woman replied, "I don't have a husband." Jesus toldher, "You're right when you say that you don't have a husband.
Joh4:18You'vehad five husbands,and theman you have now isn't your husband.You've told the truth."




I wish I knew if this is a “local”teaching I´m hearing solely in Latin America.

If you want to share, I hope it be heard.

Thanks!

That is a twist on the Scriptures that I have NEVER HEARD ANYWHERE before. So it is most like a local Latin American thing based on a misunderstanding of the scriptures quoted.

I would say there are AT LEAST as many ministries as there are UNSAVED PEOPLE, PLUS all the ministries we Christians are supposed to be doing for "one another", PLUS all the minstries we are supposed to be involved in to serve the Church, PLUS all the minstries we should be involved in to support Missionaries, etc. You see what most Christians do not understand, is that it is not the Pastor's or Priest's Job to do the work of the ministry, IT IS OUR JOB. Our Pastor's or Priest's Job is to teach us how to do the work of the ministry.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,

See, when you read verse 12 with it, the meaning becomes much more understandable.
 
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jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
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#5
The "five fold" ministry being practiced today is not biblical. This teaching is also widespread throughout North America, and anywhere really that the pentacostal movement has gone. There are no modern day 'apostles' like the 12, nor are there modern day 'prophets' as in forth-telling the future outside of what Scripture has already revealed. I've never heard the comparison being made to John 4 - that's pretty bizarre, but then that's what happens when people try to prooftext through the Bible for the purpose of having Scripture support their views.
Dream on!

Is it true there are 5 ministries, according to Eph 4:11
For those interested you can find a bit of a study on this subject Here

Yahweh Shalom
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#6
I hadn't really paid much attention to this idea of a five fold ministry......but IF it is simply relating what Paul spoke of in the 4th Chapter of Ephesians, what's the big deal?

We are all called for a purpose...........and while not all are called into the Ministry in the "particular" meaning of the word.....we can all perform a "ministry" in the broad understanding of the word........

Unless there is far more to this than what I see now...........I just don't see what the big deal is.......

Ephesians 4:11---13 is what I am reading BTW....... :)
 
May 3, 2013
8,719
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#7
That is a twist on the Scriptures that I have NEVER HEARD ANYWHERE before. So it is most like a local Latin American thing based on a misunderstanding of the scriptures quoted.

I would say there are AT LEAST as many ministries as there are UNSAVED PEOPLE, PLUS all the ministries we Christians are supposed to be doing for "one another", PLUS all the minstries we are supposed to be involved in to serve the Church, PLUS all the minstries we should be involved in to support Missionaries, etc. You see what most Christians do not understand, is that it is not the Pastor's or Priest's Job to do the work of the ministry, IT IS OUR JOB. Our Pastor's or Priest's Job is to teach us how to do the work of the ministry.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,

See, when you read verse 12 with it, the meaning becomes much more understandable.
Thanks! I got it better!

They are also using the parable of the talents to back up "their" ideas...

Believe me I have felt so upset that I don´t to attack their teachings publicly in the streets because I´ve felt unbelievers would be discuoraged to belive in Jesus (since they re not blind because of our devisions).

From now on I´m believing Scripture is all up to Jesus, the rest are something like Christinas blogs. I don´t believe another man can give more light and teaching than Jesus, less Shaul Paul (here I also acknowledged some are good to be listen and improved) but I´m starting to belived the RCC put its hands on these...
 
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
0
#8
The "five fold" ministry being practiced today is not biblical. This teaching is also widespread throughout North America, and anywhere really that the pentacostal movement has gone. There are no modern day 'apostles' like the 12, nor are there modern day 'prophets' as in forth-telling the future outside of what Scripture has already revealed. I've never heard the comparison being made to John 4 - that's pretty bizarre, but then that's what happens when people try to prooftext through the Bible for the purpose of having Scripture support their views.
Like than man (Rick Waren) who wrote http://www.encinardemamre.com/imagenes/una_vida_con_proposito.jpg
 
May 3, 2013
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#10
Jan 6, 2012
1,233
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#11
I also am hearing it "rooted" or "spiritualized" when been compared to the issues Jesus told a Samaritan woman in:


Joh4:16 Jesus told her, "Go to yourhusband,and bring him here."
Joh4:17 The woman replied, "I don't have a husband." Jesus toldher, "You're right when you say that you don't have a husband.
Joh4:18You'vehad five husbands,and theman you have now isn't your husband.You've told the truth."




I wish I knew if this is a “local”teaching I´m hearing solely in Latin America.

If you want to share, I hope it be heard.

Thanks!
1. Yes, there are five ministries, not four, three, two, or one. The pastor and the teacher are actually very distinct and different though a pastor can function as a teacher and vice versa, etc. There can be mixing among the gifts. I found that every fragrance known to man (at least the good smelling ones) fits under one of only four scent categories: Spring (flowery, soft, feminine), Summer (warm, sensual, musks, usually more masculine), Autumn (spicy, leathery, woodsy, old money), and Winter (crisp, refreshing, business-like, independent). However, one fragrance (like a cologne or perfume) can be a mix of two or more different seasonal scents. While there are five different ministries in Eph. 4:11, they can mix together, making it hard to differentiate them. 1Cor. 12:28 lumps the five together and mentions several others, but Eph. 4:11 distinguishes the five overall gifts under which categories every other gift of ministry falls (such as bishop, deacon, elder, etc.).

2. When you read the Bible, the fastest way to understand pretty much all of it is to simplify. Jesus said that God hides truth from the wise (i.e. those who think they are smart) and reveals it to babes and that unless one comes to Him as a little child, He cannot experience the Kingdom (though he may experience lots of head knowledge from the Bible). Let us simplify: five-fold ministry. Five is the number of Grace, but there is something more important about the number five. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of ministering by the power of satan, Jesus told them in essence, "We all know that satan cannot fight against himself, but I am fighting against demons and winning. If I fight against demons and win, then no doubt, you yourselves know that I triumph by the power of God." In that instance, He said, "If I, by the finger of God, cast out demons, no doubt, the Kingdom of God has come upon you." While we don't all know that God's Finger represents God's power (the Egyptian sorcerers opposing Moses called his superior power "the finger of God"), we do all know that God's Hand represents God's power. God created us with five fingers in His Image. No one cuts off a finger or two and says, "I don't need five fingers." You can survive with no fingers; but five fingers are perfectly fitted for us. We can cut off one or more of the five ministries of Eph. 4:11; but it doesn't do us any good.

3. Some people receive revelation and share it ahead of time. This is often to brag and say, "I know things others don't know." God does give 'new revelation'; but it isn't new Scripture; it is new light or understanding to explain what is already written. Often, people can't receive new revelation until. There's an until. Jesus left and said that the Holy Spirit would come and explain to the disciples what they couldn't receive at that time. Some, not all, of these 'new revelations' are factual; they are just delivered prematurely. Each one of us has a responsibility to rightly divide the Word and test the spirits. It isn't right to throw something out because it has been misused or trash something because it's been mishandled.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
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#12
Thanks! I got it better!

They are also using the parable of the talents to back up "their" ideas...

Believe me I have felt so upset that I don´t to attack their teachings publicly in the streets because I´ve felt unbelievers would be discuoraged to belive in Jesus (since they re not blind because of our devisions).

From now on I´m believing Scripture is all up to Jesus, the rest are something like Christinas blogs. I don´t believe another man can give more light and teaching than Jesus, less Shaul Paul (here I also acknowledged some are good to be listen and improved) but I´m starting to belived the RCC put its hands on these...
AMEN! Yes it is always better to let Scripture interpret Scripture. There would be far less divisions, if all Churches did that.

Even Paul had his words that GOD gave him put to the test of letting Scripture determine if Paul's Words came from GOD. How did the test the teachings with Scripture? They knew GOD does not contradict Himself.

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

How do we use Scripture to interpret Scripture?

Example:

Luke 23:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

So if we want to let Scripture interpret where Paradise is, (and there are lots of wild theories out there), we need to look other verses that talk about Paradise. Which is easy with modern software like the Free WORDsearch Basic Library. https://www.wordsearchbible.com/basic And it has over 200 free Christian books that you can add to your Library. Even the Holman's Christian Standard Bible is free, and it is new translation.

So we do a search using the Word "Paradise". and we find one verse in the Old Testament and three verses in the New Testament that talk about Paradise, but this one here, written by Paul, seems to make it clear:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ who was caught up into the third heaven 14 years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know, God knows.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] I know that this man—whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know, God knows—
[SUP]4 [/SUP] was caught up into paradise. He heard inexpressible words, which a man is not allowed to speak.

Now we have the Bible itself defining Paradise as the Third Heaven.
Are there really three heavens described in the Bible?
YES!
He created birds soaring in the heavens - thus the first heaven is our atmosphere.
He created the stars of heaven - thus the second heaven is the universe and galaxies He created.
And here is the third heaven:

Deuteronomy 4:39 (HCSB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] Today, recognize and keep in mind that the LORD is God in heaven above and on earth below; there is no other.

Matthew 6:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.

Thus we have defined with Scripture itself that Paradise is Heaven the Eternal Dwelling Place of GOD.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#13
VCO: Your comment reminds me of the oft debated issue of "How many levels of Heaven" are there?

We know that there is the "heavens" above us we can see with the human eye........We know (from these Scriptures) there is Paradise described as "the Third Heaven," and we know that there is the Heaven where God Reigns. Where His Great Throne is.
And I believe that Revelations speaks of "7 Heavens."

(just saying........ :) )
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
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#14
VCO: Your comment reminds me of the oft debated issue of "How many levels of Heaven" are there?

We know that there is the "heavens" above us we can see with the human eye........We know (from these Scriptures) there is Paradise described as "the Third Heaven," and we know that there is the Heaven where God Reigns. Where His Great Throne is.
And I believe that Revelations speaks of "7 Heavens."

(just saying........ :) )

Show me, I have studied Revelations a lot, and I remember no such thing.

I remember the seven seals, but they are NOT the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven stars, but they are NOT the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven fiery torches, but they are NOT the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven spirits of GOD, but they are Not the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven vials, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven angels, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven Kings, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven heads, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven Mountains, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven trumpets, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven golden lampstands, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember the seven Churches, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember seven horns after three are torn up by their roots, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember seven diadems, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember seven plagues, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember seven golden bowls, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember seven eyes, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

I remember seven thunders, but they are not the levels of Heaven.

Please show me where seven is associated with the levels of Heaven.
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#15
VCO...........oops, sorry, got my Revelation and Talmud mixed up........the concept of seven levels of Heaven comes from the Talmud.............a bit red faced here.........but, anyway.........sigh........ :)

Bible speaks of three heavens..........Where God resides/His Throne........Paradise..........and the heaven we see above us..........however it also speaks of a "new" heaven that will be created...........but, this may not mean it speaks of 4.......

Anyway, sorry for the mix up.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
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#16
VCO...........oops, sorry, got my Revelation and Talmud mixed up........the concept of seven levels of Heaven comes from the Talmud.............a bit red faced here.........but, anyway.........sigh........ :)

Bible speaks of three heavens..........Where God resides/His Throne........Paradise..........and the heaven we see above us..........however it also speaks of a "new" heaven that will be created...........but, this may not mean it speaks of 4.......

Anyway, sorry for the mix up.

Not quite right.

Paradise is the Third Heaven, the throne room and eternal dwelling place of GOD.

The stars, galaxies, and universe are the Second Heaven.

The Atmosphere where the clouds are and birds soar, is the First Heaven.

One, Two, Three, from the ground UP.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
#17
VCO...........oops, sorry, got my Revelation and Talmud mixed up........the concept of seven levels of Heaven comes from the Talmud.............a bit red faced here.........but, anyway.........sigh........ :)

Bible speaks of three heavens..........Where God resides/His Throne........Paradise..........and the heaven we see above us..........however it also speaks of a "new" heaven that will be created...........but, this may not mean it speaks of 4.......

Anyway, sorry for the mix up.

Now I found it, but the belief in seven heavens has some strange company, that I would not think that Jews would want to be associated with:

Wikipedia
Seven Heavens is a part of religious cosmology found in many major religions such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Catholicism and in some minor religions such as Hermeticismand Gnosticism. The Throne of God is said to be above the seventh heaven in Abrahamic religions.
Seven Heavens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
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#18
The five fold gifting is in very use today , God is moving in such a way and raising up a new leadership for the time is upon us the great day of the Lord is near and upon His return be sure all that played their own accord will mourn for as many believe they serve but do not listen to the Holy ghost , it is important to listen when He speaks.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
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#19
Not quite right.

Paradise is the Third Heaven, the throne room and eternal dwelling place of GOD.

The stars, galaxies, and universe are the Second Heaven.

The Atmosphere where the clouds are and birds soar, is the First Heaven.

One, Two, Three, from the ground UP.

Not sure about that........will have to read again, but Paradise is considered "the Bosom of Abraham" as I recall, and when Jesus spoke to the thief on the Cross those words............He had not yet ascended to the Throne of God.......so don't see how Paradise would be where God reigns...........where the clouds and birds are seen is the sky........and it is simply the part of the heaven we can see with our earthy eyes nearest to us.......one in the same.........
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#20
John 20:16) Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 .) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 .) Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

This meeting with Mary took place after His resurrection..........and He told the thief "this day....." concerning Paradise....
So, I have to believe Paradise is not where God's Throne is.