Where does inspiration occur?

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charisenexcelcis

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#1
#1
From God to reader, the first issue regarding the inspiration and interpretation of scripture is the location of inspiration. You might illustrate this process in this way

God-->human author-->original-->copies-->
-->translation-->reader or authoritative reader.

There are six prevalent view:
1. That inspiration occured between God and the human author.
2. That inspiration occured in the originals
3. That inspiration occured in the translation
4. That inspiration occured between the translated version and the reader.
5. That inspiration occured within the reader
6. That inspiration occured within the authoritative reader.

It is my belief that inspiration occured in the originals. I do believe in Divine preservation of scripture and in the Holy Spirit's work of illumination. What do you think and why?
 
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greatkraw

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#2
#2
I deal in communications. IT

A message is a message. In an analogue signal you may lose quality but you still get the message.


On the other hand, if you require fidelity, you go back to the original.
 
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Thaddaeus

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Jan 31, 2009
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I deal in spiritual things, if God or to say the inspiration of God is omitted in either step, then they will be a little leaven, and a little leaven can leaven the whole lot.



There are six prevalent view:
1. That inspiration occured between God and the human author.
2. That inspiration occured in the originals
3. That inspiration occured in the translation
4. That inspiration occured between the translated version and the reader.
5. That inspiration occured within the reader
6. That inspiration occured within the authoritative reader.
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if God is not in step one forget it. if God is not in step 2 forget it. if God is not in step 3 forget it. if God is not in step 4 forget it. If God is not in step 5 forget it. hhhhmmmm! let's see , yeah If God is not in step 6 forget it, also if God is not in step one then step 2-6 can't get it, if God was not in step 2 then step 3-6 can't get it If God is not in step 3 then steps 4-6 can't get, If God is not in step 4 then step 5 & 6 can't get it, and shouldn't 5 be 6 and 6 be 5,
 
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charisenexcelcis

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#4
#4
Thaddaeus said:
I deal in spiritual things, if God or to say the inspiration of God is omitted in either step, then they will be a little leaven, and a little leaven can leaven the whole lot.






if God is not in step one forget it. if God is not in step 2 forget it. if God is not in step 3 forget it. if God is not in step 4 forget it. If God is not in step 5 forget it. hhhhmmmm! let's see , yeah If God is not in step 6 forget, also if God is not in step one then step 2-6 can't get it, if God was not in step 2 then step 3-6 can't get it I f God is not in step 3 then steps 4-6 can't get, If God is not in step 4 then step 5 & 6 can't get it, and shouldn't 5 be 6 and 6 be 5,
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If I read a scripture and you the same and we disagree on what it says, then either one of us does not have the Holy Spirit, or meaning changes with our individual situation. If one of us is wrong, who decides? Do you have authority over I or vice versa. Or is it a third party. Or perhaps we all vote. Or we get into a chat room and argue. And meanwhile the world says, look at this book, no one can agree on what it says. Maybe you can make it say anything you want it to. and of course the Word of God doesn't mean anything to these people because after all, even those inside the faith aren't authoritative reader, since they disagree. Certainly someone who does not beleif cannot read and be convicted by the Word of God. so then why should we preach the Word, since it cannot be understood anyway. For that matter, if inspiration happens in me, I don't need to study the word, just to read it. And for that matter, why do I need the word of God. Why can't God just inspire me. I think your point of view is just a very messy cop out. by choosing all you choose not to believe in inspiration.
 
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Graybeard

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#5
#5
The only inspiration as I see it is the inspiration given to the original authors of the Bible scripts by God Himself. Then when we read it the Holy Spirit gives us understanding of the scriptures.
 
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Thaddaeus

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Jan 31, 2009
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charisenexcelcis said:
If I read a scripture and you the same and we disagree on what it says, then either one of us does not have the Holy Spirit, or meaning changes with our individual situation. If one of us is wrong, who decides? Do you have authority over I or vice versa. Or is it a third party. Or perhaps we all vote. Or we get into a chat room and argue. And meanwhile the world says, look at this book, no one can agree on what it says. Maybe you can make it say anything you want it to. and of course the Word of God doesn't mean anything to these people because after all, even those inside the faith aren't authoritative reader, since they disagree. Certainly someone who does not beleif cannot read and be convicted by the Word of God. so then why should we preach the Word, since it cannot be understood anyway. For that matter, if inspiration happens in me, I don't need to study the word, just to read it. And for that matter, why do I need the word of God. Why can't God just inspire me. I think your point of view is just a very messy cop out. by choosing all you choose not to believe in inspiration.
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no we search the scriputes in other areas to see what thus saith The Word of the Lord, I like to compare bibical doctrines to boats they keep us afloat, but if someone comes along with scriptures that may put a hole in our boat/ doctrine, then we have a choice to go down with the ship or jump on the boat/doctrine proven from scriptures. the disciple did this in acts concerning circumcision, they didn't separated and go their different ways but rather hashed it out and came awy in one accord( and it wasn't a Honda accord either)

But I also believe That I can read a certain scripture , and you can read the same scripture, and it can say two different things to us but both things being right one maybe for me, for I am on milk and the other for you which is on Meat
 
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Thaddaeus

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Jan 31, 2009
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Graybeard said:
The only inspiration as I see it is the inspiration given to the original authors of the Bible scripts by God Himself. Then when we read it the Holy Spirit gives us understanding of the scriptures.
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then we wouldn't need preachers and or teachers, or we couldn't translate into other languages
 
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charisenexcelcis

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#8
#8
I Peter 1:20-21; But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." I believe this eliminates the possibility of inspiration occuring at the point of the reader. While illumination occurs there is no personal interpretation.
 
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Graybeard

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#9
#9
Thaddaeus said:
then we wouldn't need preachers and or teachers, or we couldn't translate into other languages
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wow...I really did not think you would disagree as in some other posts you have even said to pray for understanding, so then what you are saying is that only preachers and teachers have understanding? and those that are not preachers or teachers the Holy Spirit does not give understanding?....do I understand you correctly?

I have nothing against teachers or preachers as some have been given these gifts as the Word says, but what do we make of this verse?

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
 
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Thaddaeus

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Jan 31, 2009
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Graybeard said:
wow...I really did not think you would disagree as in some other posts you have even said to pray for understanding, so then what you are saying is that only preachers and teachers have understanding? and those that are not preachers or teachers the Holy Spirit does not give understanding?....do I understand you correctly?

I have nothing against teachers or preachers as some have been given these gifts as the Word says, but what do we make of this verse?

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
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no you t-totally misunderstood what I said. I was saying that all points that was listed, needed inspiration,
 
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Thaddaeus

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Jan 31, 2009
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greatkraw said:
I deal in communications. IT

A message is a message. In an analogue signal you may lose quality but you still get the message.


On the other hand, if you require fidelity, you go back to the original.
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greatkraw Offline
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nice picture. but when did the elfs get bigger than Santa!:D
 
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charisenexcelcis

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#12
#12
Inspired, in the Biblical sense, means "breathed". So, what was breathed. I believe that the I Peter gives us guidance. The first step, between God and man is revelation. Nevertheless, because man is fallable, something more occured. The Holy Spirit so moved upon the writing prophets, that the words that they wrote were the words that God intended. Now we have the written Word of God. But this was a message not just for those who received it at the time, but for all who would hear. So God preserved His Word, insuring that it would be passed on. This preservation went beyond copies in the original language. It was God will that there be no barrier between Him and man. That is one facet of the ministry of Christ. It is also true of His word. Teacher and preachers are part of His plan, but the principle responsibility of understanding the Word of God is the individual believer (and, for that matter, unbeliever). An example of this is found in the language of the New Testament. while other writing of that day were written in the antiquated Classical Greek of Homer, the New Testament was written in the common or Koine Greek of the day. In this light, translations were made, bringing the word of god to those who did not read or understand Greek and Hebrew. All of this fall under the divine work of Preservation. Finally, the work of the Holy Spirit continues in the reader to bring understanding through illumination. This is the focus of I Joh 2:27, this act of Illumination. so you see the hand of God is there through the entire process. The objective act of inspiration rests with the originals. They are the objective test of all that is believed and proclaimed of the Word of God.
 
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Thaddaeus

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#13
Jan 31, 2009
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charisenexcelcis said:
Inspired, in the Biblical sense, means "breathed". So, what was breathed. I believe that the I Peter gives us guidance. The first step, between God and man is revelation. Nevertheless, because man is fallable, something more occured. The Holy Spirit so moved upon the writing prophets, that the words that they wrote were the words that God intended. Now we have the written Word of God. But this was a message not just for those who received it at the time, but for all who would hear. So God preserved His Word, insuring that it would be passed on. This preservation went beyond copies in the original language. It was God will that there be no barrier between Him and man. That is one facet of the ministry of Christ. It is also true of His word. Teacher and preachers are part of His plan, but the principle responsibility of understanding the Word of God is the individual believer (and, for that matter, unbeliever). An example of this is found in the language of the New Testament. while other writing of that day were written in the antiquated Classical Greek of Homer, the New Testament was written in the common or Koine Greek of the day. In this light, translations were made, bringing the word of god to those who did not read or understand Greek and Hebrew. All of this fall under the divine work of Preservation. Finally, the work of the Holy Spirit continues in the reader to bring understanding through illumination. This is the focus of I Joh 2:27, this act of Illumination. so you see the hand of God is there through the entire process. The objective act of inspiration rests with the originals. They are the objective test of all that is believed and proclaimed of the Word of God.
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I know the Bible says to study to show ourself approved, to be a workman, but you are forgetting that all believers are part of a Body, not all can be the mouth piece not all can be the heart, God has designed the Body of Christ, and that there should be no schism in the Body, with many members but one body, every member don't have a mind as to say that they make decisions but yet are guided by one source, which should be the Word of God, if you are the right foot and I am the left foot , then we have one that guides us, if we disagree with that guide, that is when we get into trouble the left foot goes one way and the right foot goes another , and the body does a split, sound like any of the churches that you know of. a shepard should be in charge, the person shoud, be in touch/inspired by God in the messages and the direction that this local assembly goes, can all be pastors , can all be teachers, can all be Apostles??????
 
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charisenexcelcis

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#14
#14
Thaddaeus said:
I know the Bible says to study to show ourself approved, to be a workman, but you are forgetting that all believers are part of a Body, not all can be the mouth piece not all can be the heart, God has designed the Body of Christ, and that there should be no schism in the Body, with many members but one body, every member don't have a mind as to say that they make decisions but yet are guided by one source, which should be the Word of God, if you are the right foot and I am the left foot , then we have one that guides us, if we disagree with that guide, that is when we get into trouble the left foot goes one way and the right foot goes another , and the body does a split, sound like any of the churches that you know of. a shepard should be in charge, the person shoud, be in touch/inspired by God in the messages and the direction that this local assembly goes, can all be pastors , can all be teachers, can all be Apostles??????
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You are not a babe that you need milk. I believe that you are correct in seeing the work of God in every step from revelation to illumination. I believe you are incorrect in identifying each step as inspiration. There are important reasons for those of us who are mature to carefully consider these things. Each of the views that see inspiration outside of the autographs (originals) opens the door to teaching that would attack the very essentials of our faith. Please consider my words, as one teacher to another. I will soon post a thread on inspiration that will connect with this. While you presently disagree with me, I ask you to prayfully consider for a few days until I post that thread. Thank-you.
 
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Thaddaeus

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#15
Jan 31, 2009
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charisenexcelcis said:
You are not a babe that you need milk. I believe that you are correct in seeing the work of God in every step from revelation to illumination. I believe you are incorrect in identifying each step as inspiration. There are important reasons for those of us who are mature to carefully consider these things. Each of the views that see inspiration outside of the autographs (originals) opens the door to teaching that would attack the very essentials of our faith. Please consider my words, as one teacher to another. I will soon post a thread on inspiration that will connect with this. While you presently disagree with me, I ask you to prayfully consider for a few days until I post that thread. Thank-you.
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but if the translators aren't inspired then can we have a true translation, why is it that most can believe that God can inspire men like Moses and Paul, to give us the orginals But God can't inspire men in the 1600's translate a true english Bible , because if they admit this then they will have to backtrack all they have said to build up the new modern day perversions, and man forbid that any proud Preacher/teacher to backtrack on anything He has every said. oh wait thats right, very few believe we have a true translation, so I guess God lied when He said He was the same yesterday as He is today and will be the same tomorrow God could inspire Men of the Bible days , but no way He could do it in the 1600's and no way He could do it today, and if He can not inspire a translator then does this mean that He can't preserve His Word like He promised He would?, so does this make the Catholic right for doing all they could to stop the english translated Bible, for they knew that God couldn't preserve His true Word if it was translated? let's flip this for a minute, If God said His Word would be perserved, and He created different languages at the tower of Babel, then if he said to study to show yourself approved , and He said that the Gospel would be published in all nations , Would He Be for peopel translating His Word into other languages, and would He be for this to the point that He would inspire translators that He could keep His promise that his Word would be preserved ?/ HHHHHMMMM;) yeah well I believe He could anyhow, is there anything to hard for our God, including giving us a true english version of His Word? well according to many yep that would be impossible For God to use man to translated a true english Bible!
I am real interesting in your future thread to explain why God can't do what He promised that He would do????????
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#16
#16
Thaddaeus said:
but if the translators aren't inspired then can we have a true translation, why is it that most can believe that God can inspire men like Moses and Paul, to give us the orginals But God can't inspire men in the 1600's translate a true english Bible , because if they admit this then they will have to backtrack all they have said to build up the new modern day perversions, and man forbid that any proud Preacher/teacher to backtrack on anything He has every said. oh wait thats right, very few believe we have a true translation, so I guess God lied when He said He was the same yesterday as He is today and will be the same tomorrow God could inspire Men of the Bible days , but no way He could do it in the 1600's and no way He could do it today, and if He can not inspire a translator then does this mean that He can't preserve His Word like He promised He would?, so does this make the Catholic right for doing all they could to stop the english translated Bible, for they knew that God couldn't preserve His true Word if it was translated? let's flip this for a minute, If God said His Word would be perserved, and He created different languages at the tower of Babel, then if he said to study to show yourself approved , and He said that the Gospel would be published in all nations , Would He Be for peopel translating His Word into other languages, and would He be for this to the point that He would inspire translators that He could keep His promise that his Word would be preserved ?/ HHHHHMMMM;) yeah well I believe He could anyhow, is there anything to hard for our God, including giving us a true english version of His Word? well according to many yep that would be impossible For God to use man to translated a true english Bible!
I am real interesting in your future thread to explain why God can't do what He promised that He would do????????
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When the translators worked, they accepted that they were fallable and would be edited, revised, perhaps some day replaced. By always looking back to the original text, they put their work under the authority of the original act of inspiration. But the work of translation is a scholarly work. There are many godly men involved in the work, but they always keep the teaching of Peter before them, that they not translate based upon personal bias but by objective purpose. The work of God through them is different than the work of the original authors. I will try to hurry my next post, so that you can see the line of thought.
 
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Graybeard

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#17
#17
hmmmm..what's this?...the battle of the teachers? lol
I see where both Thaddaeus and charisenexcelcis are coming from....interesting.
 
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carpetmanswife

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#19
#19
YOUR santas brother?? daaaaaaaaang ....lucky you :p
 
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charisenexcelcis

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#20
#20
greatkraw said:
you are actually looking at 3 brothers ranked in order of age:D
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Hard to live in the shadow of a legend. I'm refering to Santa trying to live up to you.
 
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