The book of Enoch
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The 1st part of the Book is very ancient, and is good. A verse from this 1st section is referenced in Jude. This section is certainly written by Enoch, as the NT writer confirmed this.
Anything past the 1st section is likely added after by a Russian Orthodox Church, or at least heavily edited by them.
It can be a fun read, but it is not Scripture.
(It actually teaches that the Sun goes around the earth, and that the earth is flat. So it is obviously not inspired by the Creator)
Anything past the 1st section is likely added after by a Russian Orthodox Church, or at least heavily edited by them.
It can be a fun read, but it is not Scripture.
(It actually teaches that the Sun goes around the earth, and that the earth is flat. So it is obviously not inspired by the Creator)
But Jude mentions no "Book of Enoch."
Likewise, there are references to the prophet Elijah, but no Book of Elijah.
And a prophecy of Jeremiah is mentioned, prophecy not in the Book of Jeremiah.
Oral prophecy occurred. The Lord who led Enoch to prophecy before the flood is the same Lord who led Jude to refer to Enoch.
I understand that the earliest copy of Enoch extant is from the 18th century AD, with what look like fragments as early as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Any Christian can confirm for himself that Enoch is not God's word by reading it. And a little internet search will turn up discrepancies in Enoch, like:
Enoch saying that Enoch got a vision in his 500th year, though he was translated at 365 years of age;
also saying that Enoch was 165 when Methuselah (his son) was born, though scripture says 65. There is a math error. Book of Enoch said that Enoch got a vision in his 500th year.
Now if someone has proof that Enoch is genuine, and not an example of pseudepigrapha, let that someone astound the world of scholarship by publishing that proof. Who knows? Maybe Noah stuck the book in the kangaroo's pouch for the duration of the flood.
Likewise, there are references to the prophet Elijah, but no Book of Elijah.
And a prophecy of Jeremiah is mentioned, prophecy not in the Book of Jeremiah.
Oral prophecy occurred. The Lord who led Enoch to prophecy before the flood is the same Lord who led Jude to refer to Enoch.
I understand that the earliest copy of Enoch extant is from the 18th century AD, with what look like fragments as early as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Any Christian can confirm for himself that Enoch is not God's word by reading it. And a little internet search will turn up discrepancies in Enoch, like:
Enoch saying that Enoch got a vision in his 500th year, though he was translated at 365 years of age;
also saying that Enoch was 165 when Methuselah (his son) was born, though scripture says 65. There is a math error. Book of Enoch said that Enoch got a vision in his 500th year.
Now if someone has proof that Enoch is genuine, and not an example of pseudepigrapha, let that someone astound the world of scholarship by publishing that proof. Who knows? Maybe Noah stuck the book in the kangaroo's pouch for the duration of the flood.
No, Jude does not say that Enoch wrote a thing. It looks to me like is a record of an oral prophecy. We also could quote Elijah, but there is no Book of Elijah. There is a reference to a prophecy of Jeremiah which is not in the Book of Jeremiah.
Ahah, Putin added to it! If not Rasputin. Hum . . . Putin & Rasputin . . . I am on to something now!
Well, what is the proof that the first part of the Book is very ancient? What percent of it has extant manuscript before AD 100? My lowpothesis is that some creative chap read Jude and then concocted much of Enoch from that.
I think it has the moon & sun the same size.
But the sun does go around the earth; that said from the perspective of a person on the earth. As I understand relativity, it is just as accurate to say the sun goes around the earth, as that the earth goes around the sun -- it a matter of the perspective of the point of reference and which way of describing requires more complicated math. The earth being flat is a more serious problem, as even my yard & neighborhood are not flat. Moreover, the streets in my city have enough pot holes to overthrow the flat theory.
Ahah, Putin added to it! If not Rasputin. Hum . . . Putin & Rasputin . . . I am on to something now!
Well, what is the proof that the first part of the Book is very ancient? What percent of it has extant manuscript before AD 100? My lowpothesis is that some creative chap read Jude and then concocted much of Enoch from that.
I think it has the moon & sun the same size.
But the sun does go around the earth; that said from the perspective of a person on the earth. As I understand relativity, it is just as accurate to say the sun goes around the earth, as that the earth goes around the sun -- it a matter of the perspective of the point of reference and which way of describing requires more complicated math. The earth being flat is a more serious problem, as even my yard & neighborhood are not flat. Moreover, the streets in my city have enough pot holes to overthrow the flat theory.
U
Good points.
I suppose I can't empirically prove that the first chapter is authored by Enoch himself.
By 'ancient', I was referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls(which by my standards are ancient).
Only portions of the 1st chapter are found there I believe.
The rest of what we have from the 1st chapter comes from the Ethiopian Church, and the other chapters from archives in Russia.
I had taken interest in the book 10 or 15 years ago, but it was a short-lived interest.
Why sort through a book to find a single grain of truth?
when one can go straight to the storehouse of Truth: the Bread of Life, the Word of God.
I suppose I can't empirically prove that the first chapter is authored by Enoch himself.
By 'ancient', I was referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls(which by my standards are ancient).
Only portions of the 1st chapter are found there I believe.
The rest of what we have from the 1st chapter comes from the Ethiopian Church, and the other chapters from archives in Russia.
I had taken interest in the book 10 or 15 years ago, but it was a short-lived interest.
Why sort through a book to find a single grain of truth?
when one can go straight to the storehouse of Truth: the Bread of Life, the Word of God.
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Notice, I prefaced my statement with My opinion. I use the KJV because I have found it to be closest to my Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic Bible. When I'm studying Scripture I have the KJV, MKJV, and the ESV open in separate windows and my note pad in the forth. (I can pull up several others if I need one of them) If you feel that you have a better standard, please use it. Have a great afternoon!
The one thing I think you are not considering in this is that Jude is not writing these things based on his own understanding of history or oral or written records. What he has written he was directed to write by the Holy Spirit. It makes no difference whether the prophesy of Enoch was even known by man before this or not. The Holy Spirit was the one who gave Enoch the prophesy in the first place. Now, He is relaying this same prophesy to Jude and telling us that this was also prophesied by Enoch. Enoch never wrote anything since he lived at least 1000 years before the developments of any written language.
