Romans 7 man not saved.

[Atwood]

Romans 7 Paul = Man Savissimo-ed; Sing It !

John 832 posted below: (with bold I's, donno why it won't copy & paste here)

"Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells inme.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil Iwill not to do, that I practice.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

" say that Paul is NOT referring to himself here is just not the case."

I think this deserves a good Mexican song:

I . yai yai yai,
Canta, no llores!

 

[crossnote]

Also, it doesn't matter if you show me a Greek interlinear or Lexicon. There is always going to be a man's interpretation involved in the transmission of those texts. There is no way for me to know if they are transcibed correctly because I don't speak or write Modern or Biblical Greek fluently. See, I am familiar with English, so if some guy from another country who has never spoken and written English tried to show me what a sentence said in English, I bet I would have to correct him at some point.

Gads if you pick up a magazine or newspaper there is going to be that element of interpretation.
You make it sound that because the Scriptures are filtered down through Koine Greek of ages past we have no chance to come to any firm interpretation today which pretty much nullifies God's Word including the ancient Hebrew texts as well.

 

[gotime]

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This verse clearly condemns the one who lives after the flesh. That means this verse condemns the Romans 7 man who clearly lives according to the flesh. How is that saved?

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Notice the Spirit gives life to our Mortal bodies. Does Romans 7 man seem like he is headed for life?

Not according to 7:24.

How exactly do you guys see a person who is saved and delivered there?

 

[Ukorin]

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This verse clearly condemns the one who lives after the flesh. That means this verse condemns the Romans 7 man who clearly lives according to the flesh. How is that saved?

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Notice the Spirit gives life to our Mortal bodies. Does Romans 7 man seem like he is headed for life?

Not according to 7:24.

How exactly do you guys see a person who is saved and delivered there?

On a practical basis, I agree with you.
On a theological/doctrinal/hermeneutical basis, we seem to disagree.

Christ changes lives. The Spirit gives us power to overcome sin.
I disagree that perfection can come before the Resurrection, but that is a small issue in the Light of what we agree on in Christ.

 

[gotime]

Re: Romans 7 Paul = Man Savissimo-ed; Sing It !

John 832 posted below: (with bold I's, donno why it won't copy & paste here)

"Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells inme.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil Iwill not to do, that I practice.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

" say that Paul is NOT referring to himself here is just not the case."

I think this deserves a good Mexican song:

I . yai yai yai,
Canta, no llores!

That is the problem here, I used to think the same as you because of the "I" in this passage. but there is a problem reading it that way.

because the "I" that is in bondage to sin in Romans 7 is the same "me" that is free from sin in chapter 8.

Now they do not match up, you can't be in bondage to sin and free from it at the same time, its one or the other.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Do you see what these two verses do?

Lets look at the first,

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

This verse is a summery of what He is about to illustrate in verse 14 - 24.

notice key elements,

"in the flesh"
"motions of sins"
"by the law"
"work in our members"
"fruit of death"

All of these are present in verse 14-24.

Here is the law.

Rom 7:16 ...I consent unto the law that it is good."
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual...

Sin in us causing motions of sin:

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.



In the flesh:

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Fruit of Death:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?



See every element in verse 5 is found in greater detail in verse 14-24.

But here is the bit you missed:

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh...

"were" past tense. Meaning not a current state of being. Thus Romans 7 is a description of a past way of living not a current.

What is the current way of living for Paul?

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Notice "but now" present tense.

Now dead to the law which held us once but does not now like it does in Romans 7. we serve in newness of spirit and not letter.

Romans 8 has these characteristics.

notice the points,

"Delivered from the law"
"dead to being held"
"newness of the spirit"

Delivered from the law:

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

dead to being held:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin...

newness of the spirit:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

blessings.

 

[gotime]

On a practical basis, I agree with you.
On a theological/doctrinal/hermeneutical basis, we seem to disagree.

Christ changes lives. The Spirit gives us power to overcome sin.
I disagree that perfection can come before the Resurrection, but that is a small issue in the Light of what we agree on in Christ.

That maybe so, but let me ask you, Is anything impossible for God?

 

[Ukorin]

That maybe so, but let me ask you, Is anything impossible for God?

nope.
All things are possible with God.

That doesn't mean He's going to remove you from your earthly body and give you a new one before the appointed time.

Just because it's possible doesn't mean He is going to do it.

Strive forward until the race is over.
There is no way to escape the bounds of flesh, except by death or translation.
This does not mean we are slaves to it,
but it does mean that it will always be there resisting what we are called to do in Christ.

 

[gotime]

nope.
All things are possible with God.

That doesn't mean He's going to remove you from your earthly body and give you a new one before the appointed time.

Just because it's possible doesn't mean He is going to do it.

Strive forward until the race is over.
There is no way to escape the bounds of flesh, except by death or translation.

I agree God wont remove our earthly bodies. Corinthians makes that clear.

But I never said anything about taking our earthly bodies away.

The Spirit is stronger than the flesh. Jesus was in flesh and He did not sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

 

[Ukorin]

I agree God wont remove our earthly bodies. Corinthians makes that clear.

But I never said anything about taking our earthly bodies away.

The Spirit is stronger than the flesh. Jesus was in flesh and He did not sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Overcoming is one thing.
Perfection is another.

We do agree in the practical application, but you seem to see it as disagreement.

Accepting that the flesh is still a real and potent enemy is not an excuse to sin. It is just being realistic.
To reject that a Christian can still make mistakes is just being unrealistic. It has never occurred (except for Christ Himself).
Even Peter messed up when dealing with Jews vs Gentiles, and Paul had to rebuke him in public.

 

[gotime]

Overcoming is one thing.
Perfection is another.

We do agree in the practical application, but you seem to see it as disagreement.

Accepting that the flesh is still a real and potent enemy is not an excuse to sin. It is just being realistic.
To reject that a Christian can still make mistakes is just being unrealistic. It has never occurred (except for Christ Himself).
Even Peter messed up when dealing with Jews vs Gentiles, and Paul had to rebuke him in public.

Yes Peter did mess up as we all do as we grow. But did Peter keep messing up? we don't really know maybe maybe not.

I am not rejecting that we make mistakes, I am rejecting the notion that we will always make mistakes.

anyway blessings

 

[Jason0047]

Gads if you pick up a magazine or newspaper there is going to be that element of interpretation.
You make it sound that because the Scriptures are filtered down through Koine Greek of ages past we have no chance to come to any firm interpretation today which pretty much nullifies God's Word including the ancient Hebrew texts as well.

Most nobody here repented hearing the Greek. In fact, if I were to read Greek to you, would you understand it? For example: I tried studying Brazillian Portuguese for my fiance. I got the CD's and I got the book. Problem is that my fiance kept correcting me and a person from work corrected me, as well. Yet, I was doing everything that the books and the CD's told me to do. The point I am getting at is that I know Paul would be correcting people here who think they know Greek when in reality they are merely Greek dabblers. I don't care what kind of degree you got. There is a huge difference between knowing how to speak and write a language intimately and then guessing as to what it might be saying. For there is no way for you to know Biblical Greek with 100% accuracy unless you had another verified source to back it up that is rock solid. Paul or one of the other apostles who written and spoke Biblical Greek would be a good reliable source to verify such a thing to start. For you have to understand that not all Greek scholars agree with each other and not every believer who interprets Biblical Greek from the Bible agrees with each other over the Greek either. It's the same with English. Not everyone agrees on the Bible in their reading of it in English; And yet at least with the English we can at least say we have the knowledge of such a language so as to talk about a passage in it's proper context (with the full understanding). For when a person understands the Bible in English and they do not like what the passage says, they will either attempt to:

(a) Allegorize the Scripture (When there is no indication to do so).
(b) Ignore what the Scripture says.
(c) Twist the Scripture to mean something else (That is not in context).

But in these cases, I can point out what the Bible actually says in English and show them the context and or other related verses in English with no dispute about the normal plain straight reading of the Bible. But with the Greek, I do not speak or write Modern Greek to even remotely have a chance at understanding Biblical Greek. Yes, you can say they are not similar. But I have read several different articles where people who do speak and write Modern Greek would disagree with you. The fact of the matter is that one is still guessing as to a language that is no longer in existence. For the Modern Translations are based off a different set of Greek manuscripts than the KJV was based off of, too. Not even all English Bibles agree with each other. So one has to have a Bible that is nailed down in their own language that they are familar with. It's the only way. And I believe the Bible that was preserved for our world language today is the King James Bible. Is it more perfect than the Greek? No. It is just a faithful translation of which I believe to be perfect and without error. For seriously. If I thought for a second that the Bible only existed in the Greek, I would make it my mission to know how to speak and write Modern Greek and know the difference between Biblical Greek. But I don't believe God calls me to study another language to understand His Word. For what passage in the Bible says for me to study another language to understand God's Word? None that I am aware of. From my study of the Scriptures it is the exact opposite. For the Scriptures tell me that the Word of God is perfect and that it would be preserved for all generations forever.

 

[fredjames]

This contrast of Romans 7 and Romans 8 is all throughout the epistles

Galatians 3
[SUP]1[/SUP]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? [SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Are the ones mentioned in Galatians saved Christians or unsaved? Saved... Just backslidden into works of the law. Just like Romans 7. Like Paul himself. Like every Christian that has ever lived. Peter... really backslid almost all the way back into Judaism...


2 Corinthians 3

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


Obviously Christians have a problem with going back to the law to attempt to obey it in their will and strength. Just like Israel kept wanting to go back to Egypt. Because it was what they knew. It was what their fathers knew. It was what their grand-fathers knew.

Who knows of the Liberty that is in Christ? Precious few. Who knows of this Grace through Faith and not of works? Precious few. Who have been able to continue this walk in Grace and Liberty without the "experts" in the "gospel" showing them they must walk according to the law or be condemned as sinners? Precious few.

Peace be with you beloved Grandpa, and may the Good GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, bless you with HIS kindness and peace.

The Galatians Gentile believers, in new innocence to the faith and SPIRIT, believed in everyone who claims to be one of them, a believer in 'The Way' and in everything they hear and that sounds wise and wise to be put to practice in their church, that also everyone who remain in carnality and for carnality, henceforth tend to approve such things as just and beneficial for others, beginning from a leader.

Accepting such and others, even in practices, as written in words according to the Old Law of the letter given to the Jews or Law written in the conscience given the Gentiles, may sound wise and inspiring to the carnal/flesh, but it is done ignorantly and enslaved once again according to the mind set and works according to the flesh and are actually accursed and the SPIRIT of life of grace and truth to be received in faith, have become of no use at all to liberate.

Then sin and death once again able to dominate those who remain in carnal/flesh, as babes in CHRIST. And in that carnality/fleshly attitude and it's wise thinking, anyone can be an imposter bewitching or bewitched themselves by an imposter, both who also have remained to carnal/flesh and have enslaves himself or herself to that carnal/ flesh laws, who in ignorance themselves imposes such also onto others who are weak in faith, in order to make themselves important among others and prey to take control of others.

This has been summed up in revelation according to Apostle Paul's cautioning epistle to the Galatians church, to beware of carnal/flesh deception within themselves and carnality/fleshly deception among themselves.

This is how i am witnessing and learning in the SPIRIT, about the 'Law of the SPIRIT of life' written in the New Testament/Covenant, accordingly as revealed and given to me, by the will of the Living Eternal FATHER who is fully in CHRIST JESUS our LORD and by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT our Comforter, in order to impart them freely, freely, for the spiritual build up of Spirit/spirit thinkers and doers and cautioning build up of the carnal/flesh thinkers and doers, who remain in carnality/fleshly's ways, to it''s own selfish feelings and desires and to the necessities and pleasures of this world and whose fruit never ripen.

As both are babes in CHRIST, one whose mind and works are towards the SPIRIT's, who are actually and truthfully the ones advancing and are advancers. And another whose mind and works are towards the carnal/flesh's, who are actually and truthfully the ones 'backsliding' and are 'backsliders'.

Be blessed and Good-by for now.

 

[Ukorin]

Yes Peter did mess up as we all do as we grow. But did Peter keep messing up? we don't really know maybe maybe not.

I am not rejecting that we make mistakes, I am rejecting the notion that we will always make mistakes.

anyway blessings

There are 2 ways to interpret your last sentence. (The one before the blessing, which I appreciate and reciprocate)
One way is that you reject that we will constantly make mistakes. I agree.
The second way is that you reject that we will never get to a place, or level, where we no longer make mistakes. I would have to disagree.

As we grow, we overcome more and more sin, but we also realize more and more, how many sins we have that we never knew about. The perfection that God has set as a standard, is so far beyond our finite comprehension. We are certainly sinning, in some way, in this moment, by not saying exactly what God would have said in our place.

We were created to be God's image here on earth. His representatives. His avatars. If we are not saying and doing exactly what God would do, were he in our place, then we are erring from the mark He set (the definition of sin).

 

[Jason0047]

For when a person understands the Bible in English and they do not like what the passage says, they will either attempt to:

(a) Allegorize the Scripture (When there is no indication to do so).
(b) Ignore what the Scripture says.
(c) Twist the Scripture to mean something else (That is not in context).

And we need to add one more to this list. For when a person does not like what the Bible says in English (KJV), they will attempt to:

(d) Act like they know Biblical Greek and quote one of the interpretations of that passage to you in Greek (Even when there is no real way to verify what they are saying because folks are just guessing as to what that language says).

 

[Ukorin]

And we need to add one more to this list. For when a person does not like what the Bible says in English (KJV), they will attempt to:

(d) Act like they know Biblical Greek and quote one of the interpretations of that passage to you in Greek (Even when there is no real way to verify what they are saying because folks are just guessing as to what that language says).

KJV only is another topic.
Denying that people understand Koine Greek is a foolish assumption. It is a 4th grade reading level, and extremely easy to pick up. If you want to debate lexicon and concordance, do so in an appropriate thread.

(BTW, what you are asserting is actually a conspiracy theory, and one that would undermine even the validity of the KJV. It is put forward by revisionist atheists)

 

[fredjames]

I think we must have misunderstood each other.

I agree that some evil men have entered the church, and have preached 'licence to sin', and other such twisted doctrine.

They twist good doctrine into whatever they want. They twist Scripture too.



This twisting doesn't mean that the original is false.

So that is where we seem to disagree. I do believe that the Romans 7 man is saved,
however this struggle that we see is not an excuse. It is struggle that requires resistance, not simply giving in.

I'm sorry that I came across the way I did. I didn't mean it to sound like I was denying your point entirely.

Peace be with you, dearly beloved SolidGround and may the Good Eternal Living GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, bless you with HIS kindness and peace.

With all due Heavenly respect to you and i who have been made as servant to you and others, in humble and humility accept your precious golden righteous apology, which i am unworthy and undeserving to receive.

Thank you blessed and Good-by for now.

 

[BradC]

And we need to add one more to this list. For when a person does not like what the Bible says in English (KJV), they will attempt to:

(d) Act like they know Biblical Greek and quote one of the interpretations of that passage to you in Greek (Even when there is no real way to verify what they are saying because folks are just guessing as to what that language says).

That may be true in some cases but not all. This is why we need a pastor-teacher that God has raised up who has put the word of God first and not only studies to show himself approved but to the point of exhaustion. Who takes what is learned and taught by the Spirit and puts it into practice by faith to walk in the wisdom of it and to see the fruit of it so that others who hear it also become doers of the word. There is a basic understanding of the NT Greek sentence structure that anyone can learn to give them a helpful understanding of what they are studying, Knowing the meaning of verbs with their tense, voice and mood is a great addition to that study.

After all we would not want to use the wrong kind of verb when we speak to one another. We would not want to use a verb that denoted the subject of the sentence as receiving the action of the verb instead of the subject being the one who initiates that action. We would also want to know if the action carries a continuous action or an action that has been competed not having to be repeated. Things like that are helpful and a good pastor-teacher will learn these things to be a good teacher of the word and doctrine. For us who are learning their are some good aids that are helpful that can be trusted and we also have the Spirit that will guide us into the truth when our heart is hungry for God.

 

[Grandpa]

The Romans wretch is in trouble because he is in bondage to sin. Sin rules over the Romans wretch and thus the Romans wretch has not been set free from the law of sin and death. The Romans wretch keeps sinning unto death and thus remain in a perpetual state of being cut off from God. No forgiveness of sin is possible in this state because if forgiveness was granted the wretch would just bring themselves under condemnation again because they don't stop reoffending..

There is a difference between being in bondage to sin and being saved and then going back to the law and your own works.

The difference is, in the first case, the person doesn't know being free of the law and perfectly clean by the salvation of the Lord Jesus.

Being saved and going back to the law is like Peter when he was walking on water. He was doing fine for awhile but then looked at his circumstances to see how he was doing. He wasn't condemned for looking away. He was taught that the solution was always to look towards the Lord Jesus. Even though his, and everyone else's, natural inclination is to see what's next and how they are going to deal with it.

The solution to the dilemma of the Romans wretch is the crucifixion of the old man once and for all (as we see in Romans 6) and then being raised up to newness of life whereby one abides in the spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Therefore there is no condemnation to them who are in Jesus Christ, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. It is the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets one free from the law of sin and death.

1 Corinthians 15
[SUP]42 [/SUP]So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This is when we are perfected once and for all.

The solution to those who are attempting to do the work of salvation by their own strength and will is coming to Christ and receiving His Rest. Which is the Holy Spirit, which is Salvation.

The law could not effect this freedom because the law can only address outward conduct. It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which addresses the inward man, the heart. Thus it is through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which one is truly set free from sin because an internal change is manifested. Thus the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us.

The error of the Galatians was that they had begin to take their focus off the inward transformation (which is resultant of grace, ie. the power of God) to that of external law keeping. Thus the Galatians were pushing outward regimentation over and above inward transformation.

The Romans 7 wretch is not a saved individual because salvation is not some abstract position which leaves someone in bondage to sin. Satanic doctrine teaches salvation IN sin as opposed to salvation FROM sin.

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Is this inward or outward?

Matthew 5:44 [SUP] [/SUP]But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Is this inward or outward?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Is this inward or outward?

If you truly know what the Law says and how it is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, you can see how it is not hard to get entangled again in your own works of sinlessness.

If Satan can convince people they are saved when they still are in bondage to sin then an authentic salvation experience is done away with. Sinners can then be coddled towards their doom with a false assurance that they are reconciled to God when they are not.

Who exactly convinces people of their salvation?

If a person has faith that they are saved in Christ Jesus do they need to have a bunch of salvation experiences?

The definition of grace has commonly been perverted today. Today many view grace as solely a cloaking provision whereby a worker of iniquity can still sin and not surely die simply because they "believe in Jesus." It is a lie. A very tasty lie.

What does the Blood of Jesus do for us? We who were dead in our sins...

The truth is that grace abound when sin abounds because God has mercy and is not willing to carry out sentence immediately. God is long suffering while sin abounds. Yet that does not mean that we can keep on sinning so this long suffering of God can go on even longer. No! The rebellion and therefore the service of sin must cease.

The rebellion ceases through a genuine repentance experience where the mind changes and one then yields to God. It is through faithfully yielding to God (genuine faith) that one partakes in the grace of God (God's diving influence on the heart) and works together whereby a genuine and total inward transformation takes place. Initial salvation is the state after this transformation has taken place.

The Truth is that we aren't perfect. Even after we have come to Christ and have been cleansed and removed from the bondage of sin. We still aren't perfect. Even in our love we aren't perfect. Even when we think we are at our very best we aren't perfect. Even when we are trying so much harder than our brother to remain perfectly sinless, we aren't.

And thus we live by faith. Faith that the Lord Jesus Christ truly is the friend of Sinners. Faith that He saved this sinner once, surely He can do it again. Faith that once He has included us in His Family He won't kick us out. Faith that we don't understand everything about salvation but even so, He is the Author and Finisher, not us.

There is no possible way that a Romans wretch who is still in bondage to sin and therefore still serves sin is saved. What are they saved from? Certainly not sin and wretchedness.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore Perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

I haven't been able to attain this. There is only One that Has attained this. I worship Him as my Lord and Saviour. His name is Jesus Christ. He is the friend of sinners. He will pull us out of our bondage. He will continue to bring us toward perfection. Not by our work but by His. If I'm not perfect, right now, then it is His Will that I must still have some things to work out...

 

[Grandpa]

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This verse clearly condemns the one who lives after the flesh. That means this verse condemns the Romans 7 man who clearly lives according to the flesh. How is that saved?

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Notice the Spirit gives life to our Mortal bodies. Does Romans 7 man seem like he is headed for life?

Not according to 7:24.

How exactly do you guys see a person who is saved and delivered there?

How does faith work?

Do we question a persons salvation because they attempt to keep the law by their flesh? Such as the 4th commandment?

That would put whole denominations in the un-saved category.

The question is, can a person be saved and still struggle with trying to attain sinless perfection by their own will and strength?
Can a person be saved and still try to keep the law through their own will and strength and understanding?

If a person falls from grace does that mean they have also fallen from Salvation? Are they kicked out?

Galatians 5:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Can a person work at the commandments, trying to keep them in their flesh and strength, and through the Spirit wait for the hope of Righteousness by faith, at the same time?

I don't think a person has to be stuck in their flesh and strength. They can come to the Lord Jesus Christ and receive His Rest. If they are saved or not saved is questioning the Power of the Cross and the faith of peoples conversion. How can you put yourself in the place of God and tell people they aren't saved when you yourself has no real idea?

 

[Jason0047]

KJV only is another topic.
Denying that people understand Koine Greek is a foolish assumption. It is a 4th grade reading level, and extremely easy to pick up. If you want to debate lexicon and concordance, do so in an appropriate thread.

(BTW, what you are asserting is actually a conspiracy theory, and one that would undermine even the validity of the KJV. It is put forward by revisionist atheists)

You obviously have never tried studying another language before later in life and then talk with the locals so as to have them correct you. In other words, not every Greek scholar or Greek dabbler (Not Greek speaker or writer) agrees with each other. It's all interpretation. Yes, some words we can understand by comparing it it's usage and by looking at the English. But we still do not know the grammar or the special usage of Biblical Greek with 100% pin point accuracy. Most everyone is just guessing. But like you said, this is another topic for another thread.