Predestination Makes Void Personal Responsibility

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,479
113
#1
Matthew 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 .) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 .) Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 .) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 .) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 .) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 .) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If one is predestined from the beginning to either eternal life or eternal damnation........then personal responsibility can not be a factor to be judged........after all, for what reason would man have to "give account?"

 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#2
Matthew 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 .) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 .) Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 .) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 .) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 .) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 .) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If one is predestined from the beginning to either eternal life or eternal damnation........then personal responsibility can not be a factor to be judged........after all, for what reason would man have to "give account?"

Romans 9
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3
Romans 9
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

In reference to the nation of Israel. God formed them. And they (willingly) unformed themselves. His plan has been to reform them again. And who are we or anyone else to argue with him.

It is not in reference to personal salvation of any induvidual. look at the OT quote to get context.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,479
113
#4
I actually like that verse for it shows that predestination/irresistible will trumps personal responsibility........ :)

And predestination makes Job's desire to debate with God moot............in fact, the entire Book of Job is of no avail, since God predestined all from the beginning..........hmmmm, guess predestination pretty much makes of no avail the entire Bible.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,479
113
#5
I can not be the only one who sees the hypocrisy contained in the statement.......

Irresistible Grace:

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God.

 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#6

In reference to the nation of Israel. God formed them. And they (willingly) unformed themselves. His plan has been to reform them again. And who are we or anyone else to argue with him.

It is not in reference to personal salvation of any induvidual. look at the OT quote to get context.
no no it's about specific people. Jacob, Esau, pharaoh.

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]


14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
 
May 14, 2014
611
4
0
#7
Romans 9
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it....O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. Jer.18

If you read this text, you will see that God makes vessels according to a persons willingness to listen. This also agrees with 2 Tim.2:20

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.



God forms us as we obey Him.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#8
no no it's about specific people. Jacob, Esau, pharaoh.

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]


14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
No No,

It is about God, and did he make a mistake in choosing Israel of those things had a hand in God chosing Isreal. (the context of the whole passage)

Paul was making the argument, God did not make a mistake. that was one area he proved it.

God explains this in the OT, we need to look at what the OT saying is to interpret correctly. We can not take the OT quote of of context of what it originally said.


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: [SUP]6 [/SUP]“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! [SUP]7 [/SUP]The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, [SUP]8[/SUP]if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, [SUP]10 [/SUP]if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#9
saying someone is saved ahead of time is anti Bible

this is not the gospel Jesus preached
"Some of you are saved ahead of time and some are not

this is not the gospel

Jesus said ALL of yo change
all of you repent
every one of you

whoever wants to repent, then tepent

I never saw from genesses to revelation

anyone teach

it dont matter what you do your going to heaven
that does not match the Bible

I see
Pray wth all your might
follow God 100 percent

IF YOU DO NOT YOU WILL NOT BE SAVED
Nicodemous, you cant go like that
you have to be changed your life has to be changed you have to change
you dant to it
you have to pray for God to do it inside you
you have to pray
you have a duty
you have a respnsibility
you have to obey

obery

obbey
if yo dont obey you will be destroyed

over and over

obey obey obey if you DONT OBEY you wil be destroyed
you have to get rid of your false idols I=or God will destroy you
you have to pray
you have to do

predsetination is a false doctrine that came from the misinterpretation of BAD WORD CHOICES by KJV committee

they use TWO BIBLE VERSES
twist them
and then CANCEL hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bible verses using those two twisted verses with bad word choices

if you believe predestination you just dont know how to study the Bible correctly

wto stdy Bible you look up ALL THE VERSES and you take the majority

the minority verses are poorly translated so look them up

church of england (king james committe) believed in predestination and they twisted every verse they could to make it look like that, they succesfully twisted two verses to appear somewht lke predestination but if you just LOOK THOSE UP you will find beet choices that MATCH HUNDRES AND HUNDREDS OF BIBLE VERSES

and yes
predestination is the EASY ROAD wnd will cause many people to sit back and be lost
bad doctrine I think.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#10
saying someone is saved ahead of time is anti Bible.

So God lied when he said we were chosen before the foundation of the earth.

Jesus lied when he said we were given to him before time began.

God lied when he said we were predestined (not the calvanist form) to an inheritance undefiled before we were even born.

You must have a different scripture.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#11
No No,

It is about God, and did he make a mistake in choosing Israel of those things had a hand in God chosing Isreal. (the context of the whole passage)

Paul was making the argument, God did not make a mistake. that was one area he proved it.

God explains this in the OT, we need to look at what the OT saying is to interpret correctly. We can not take the OT quote of of context of what it originally said.


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: [SUP]6 [/SUP]“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! [SUP]7 [/SUP]The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, [SUP]8[/SUP]if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, [SUP]10 [/SUP]if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
Ok we need a recap.
First I posted this.
Romans 9
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...void-personal-responsibility.html#post1623360

And then you're all like..no no no..this is about nations not individuals.

In reference to the nation of Israel. God formed them. And they (willingly) unformed themselves. His plan has been to reform them again. And who are we or anyone else to argue with him.

It is not in reference to personal salvation of any induvidual. look at the OT quote to get context.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...void-personal-responsibility.html#post1623363

And then I'm like no no no..it's about individuals..Then I post an in context verse that shows individuals being discussed..

no no it's about specific people. Jacob, Esau, pharaoh.

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]


14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...void-personal-responsibility.html#post1623363


And then in reply to my in context verses which show it's about individuals, you cite this to prove Romans 9 is about nations...You cite Jeremiah 18....

No No,

It is about God, and did he make a mistake in choosing Israel of those things had a hand in God chosing Isreal. (the context of the whole passage)

Paul was making the argument, God did not make a mistake. that was one area he proved it.

God explains this in the OT, we need to look at what the OT saying is to interpret correctly. We can not take the OT quote of of context of what it originally said.


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: [SUP]6 [/SUP]“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! [SUP]7 [/SUP]The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, [SUP]8[/SUP]if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, [SUP]10 [/SUP]if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
So I show in context where it discusses individuals, and you pull in some text from Jeremiah?
Going further it shows it is discussing individuals.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#12
To understand predestination one must first understand that it is not predetermination. We are predestined in Christ meaning that the inheritance is determined by our position in Christ. If we are not in Christ we are predestined to eternal condemnation. Our position in Christ is not predestined but the blessing of eternal life are predestined to those who receive Christ. Esau was hated because he counted the blessing of Abraham to be less than a bowl of beans. Pharaoh was destroyed because he thought himself above God. God certainly foreknew what these would believe but God did not predetermine what they should believe. God did not hate Esau but his sin and his decision against the inheritance God had for him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
Ok we need a recap.
First I posted this.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...void-personal-responsibility.html#post1623360

And then you're all like..no no no..this is about nations not individuals.


http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...void-personal-responsibility.html#post1623363

And then I'm like no no no..it's about individuals..Then I post an in context verse that shows individuals being discussed..


http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...void-personal-responsibility.html#post1623363


And then in reply to my in context verses which show it's about individuals,

This is where the calvanistic view of romans 9 and the other view of Romans 9 are apposed.

calvanists has it all about individuals.

most of the rest of us has it in context of the 1st 6 verses.. which concerns pauls people. who he would give up everything if they would repent. and then answering the argument, did God make a mistake choosing the nation of Israel. (since he chose them, and they have now rejected him)


all of the arguments paul made goes right along with this.

1. God chose pharaoh to show the nation his power (even though it did not good to those who actually witnessed it but a few)

2. God did not chose based on mans view, he chose it based on gods view. according to man. Esau was to have the promise, yet God chose before they were even born that it would not be him. Jacob he loved, Esau he loved less (the literal interpretation, hate is a bad interpretation) which was not even speaking of people. but of nations (the quote was in malachi, Paul literally spoke of Gods word. Israel (jacob) he loved, Esau (edom) he loved less) so he was not even speaking of individuals in this context. he was speaking of nations.

I hope you get the view of where we are going with this.


you cite this to prove Romans 9 is about nations...You cite Jeremiah 18....
as for me quoting Jeremiah, of course I am. That is what Paul quoted, Paul can not take an OT prophet out of context. twist his meaning, and use it to prove his point, many of his audience was very knowledgeable of the OT saying, if paul did this, they would have called him out for it.

So I show in context where it discusses individuals, and you pull in some text from Jeremiah?
Going further it shows it is discussing individuals.
no. quite the contrary,

jacob was Israel. Esau was edom.. don;t take the OT quotes out of context. that is faulty hermeneutics
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#14
No No,

It is about God, and did he make a mistake in choosing Israel of those things had a hand in God chosing Isreal. (the context of the whole passage)


Keep reading to verse 23. He is indeed using examples from Israel's redemptive history, but he is using that to make a point about the wider salvation of God's people, both Jew and Gentile (which is entirely consistent with Paul's comments earlier about not all of Israel being true Israel, and not all the children being Abraham's literal descendants)
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#15
No contradiction exists between divine predestination and personal responsibility. God is sovereign over the affairs of men, yet we are fully responsible for our actions. Both are revealed in scripture so we ought to accept them as truth. :)
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#16
No contradiction exists between divine predestination and personal responsibility. God is sovereign over the affairs of men, yet we are fully responsible for our actions. Both are revealed in scripture so we ought to accept them as truth. :)
That is sound doctrine.
Retaining God's Sovereignty, while never eliminating man's responsibility for his actions.
 
K

kayem77

Guest
#17
No contradiction exists between divine predestination and personal responsibility. God is sovereign over the affairs of men, yet we are fully responsible for our actions. Both are revealed in scripture so we ought to accept them as truth. :)
Well put, very simple. We cannot ignore something that's clearly on the Bible just because our human minds cannot reconcile two apparent contradictions. God shows his Sovereignty all over Israel's history, and in today's world. Jesus commanded everyone to ''repent and believe'', yet in the very first chapter of John it says that ''all who believed in him...he gave the right to become children of God, who were born...nor of the will of man, but of God'' and then when talking to Nicodemus Jesus repeats this truth when He says ''You must be born again''. Can anyone force their own birth? I don't think so. Yet, we are responsible for our actions here in our earth.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,195
6,509
113
#18
When we read about those whom Yahweh foreknew, it is quite probable this is a reference to all who come to Yeshua and are saved by His Blood. At that point, from this age they have been foreknown by the Father.

If it were foreknown before creation and encarnation of all souls, then why a creation? Yahweh is good all of the time, and He created all things out of love, though some stray from Him
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#19
There are some evil men who have preached that because of predestination man is no longer responsible. They have condemned themselves by leading others astray.

Just because some men twist doctrine, does not make the doctrine false.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
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#20
This is also applies to OSAS, too. There is no responsibility in OSAS because you can sin and an ultimately be saved no matter what you do. That is why many believe OSAS to be a spin off of Calvinism.