What it means to not be under the Law...

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Jun 26, 2014
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The Law encompasses both the definition of sin and its punishment. If one is under the Old Covenant he is under the authority and control of the Law. The Law tells him what sin is and makes him subject to sin's punishment.

Jesus was born under the Law which means He used the Law to define sin and subjected Himself to its punishment, even though He never sinned.

Whether one is under the Law or not the Law still defines sin but only in its letter form. In other words, the Law says, "Thou shall not commit adultery". This is a good rule to obey but it only covers physical adultery. A person under the Old Covenant can lust all day long and still not break the Law. This changes under the New Covenant.

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The standard is much higher under the New Covenant. It was actually much easier to obey the Law under the Old Covenant than it is under the New Covenant thus the need for abounding grace.

Grace does away with the punishment while leaving intact the definition of sin.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

What this is asking is that since we are not subject to the Law's punishment does that mean we can now go out and sin? Certainly not!

We are not subject to the Law's punishment because Jesus took that on our behalf which now places us in the state of grace, even though adultery is still a sin.

What shall we say to this? Shall we sin so that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Sin is still sin but grace removes the punishment.

There is a good example of this found in John 8:3-6.

In this story the Pharisees brought to Jesus a lang caught in the act of adultery. They point out the fact that the Law commanded punishment. Notice the sin and its required punishment.

John 8:3-6 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?” This they said, testing Him, that they might havesomething of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

Now notice Jesus' response. He tells her that she is not condemned (no punishment) but He keeps the definition of sin, which was adultery by telling her not to do it again.

John 8:10-11 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,“Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go andsin no more.”

God's definition of sin stays the same, adultery is still adultery and the Sabbath is still the seventh day.

Now comes the giving of the Spirit.

God gives us His Spirit and writes His Law (definition of sin) on our hearts. The difference is this. We no longer live by the letter of the Law, but rather, the spirit of the Law. The letter of the Law says no to adultery but the spirit of the Law says no to even lusting in our heart.


The Spirit of God will lead us into a higher standard of the Law. The Spirit guides and convicts us in the weightier matters of the Law, which are justice, mercy and faith without doing away with God's definition of sin.

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Now let's bring this over to the seventh day Sabbath. The Sabbath is still the seventh day, that has not changed nor will it change in the millennium.

The Law under the Old Covenant says no labor on the Sabbath, period. That can be a harsh way to celebrate the Sabbath since just about everything consists of exerting some sort of effort. So how do we interpret Sabbath keeping under the New Covenant? We learn how to honor the Sabbath through the teachings of Jesus, not by the letter of the Law. Remember, the seventh day was blessed and made holy long before sin or the Law ever existed.


Jesus taught us over and over again on how to honor the Sabbath in light of the weightier matters. Jesus removes us from the letter of the Law, which says no labor, period, and leads us into, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath leaves the door wide open to be free within the Sabbath day observance.

So how do we know? How do we judge what it is good to do on the Sabbath? By the guiding of the Spirit.

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

When you are led by the Spirit of God you will know if you are honoring the Sabbath or not. If you are being led by the Spirit of God you will know if you are committing adultery in your heart.

If love is convicting you by God's Spirit, you know that you are not walking in love.

1 John 3:18-21 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

Jesus died for our sins. He took the condemnation and judgement the Law required and nailed it to the cross. This removes all power from the enemy to condemn us. Therefore we too are not to judge anyone in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths.

Colossians 2:13-17 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

We are to teach the ways of God and encourage following the ways of God because His ways are best and we are His children. We are not to bring upon His children judgment or condemnation because of these matters because there are weightier issues when it comes to walking in love. We are not called to work out someone else's salvation or force someone else to obey God, that's the job of the Spirit.

Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Remember, in the heart of God He loves us. He is calling us. He is not condemning us nor is He punishing us but know this. Sin has a wage of its own that does not come from God. Sin has a judgement of its own apart form God, which God is trying to protect us from.

James 1:13-16 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

Proverbs 8:36 “But he who sins against me injures himself; all those who hate me love death.”
 
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Tintin

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#2
Scuba Duba Doo, you sure seem to love the sound of your own voice.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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#3
Scuba Duba Doo, you sure seem to love the sound of your own voice.
I guess its time for me to kick the dust off my shoes. Just remember, God will have a peculiar people, a royal priesthood and a holy nation that He can call His own and they will not be saying what you're saying to that which God calls holy, just and good.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#5
I guess its time for me to kick the dust off my shoes. Just remember, God will have a peculiar people, a royal priesthood and a holy nation that He can call His own and they will not be saying what you're saying to that which God calls holy, just and good.
If someone disagrees with you, it doesn't always mean that you're in the right. Just so you know.
 
May 15, 2013
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#6
The Law encompasses both the definition of sin and its punishment. If one is under the Old Covenant he is under the authority and control of the Law. The Law tells him what sin is and makes him subject to sin's punishment.

Jesus was born under the Law which means He used the Law to define sin and subjected Himself to its punishment, even though He never sinned.

Whether one is under the Law or not the Law still defines sin but only in its letter form. In other words, the Law says, "Thou shall not commit adultery". This is a good rule to obey but it only covers physical adultery. A person under the Old Covenant can lust all day long and still not break the Law. This changes under the New Covenant.

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The standard is much higher under the New Covenant. It was actually much easier to obey the Law under the Old Covenant than it is under the New Covenant thus the need for abounding grace.

When Jesus had said that, He was referring to the ones that had thought that they were keeping the laws, but Jesus had pointed out to them where they didn't thought that God will look at, and that is the heart. Its says that man look at the outward appearances, but God look at the heart. But now God is not seeking for the wrong that we do (because that is cover by Christ), but He does look at the effort or what we had strive for. But if our desires is to hurt or harm anyone or things that is here on earth. God will fill that person up with all the grief that person had cause.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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#7
Same thought crossed my mind.
Be blessed brother and keep fighting the good fight of faith. Always remember this, the secret to resisting the Beast is to maintain a steadfast endurance in following the commandments of God and hold on to our faith in the finished work of Jesus.

Revelation 14:11-12And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.” This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to their faith in Jesus.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#8
The Law encompasses both the definition of sin and its punishment. If one is under the Old Covenant he is under the authority and control of the Law. The Law tells him what sin is and makes him subject to sin's punishment.


Is one under the authority and control of the WHOLE law or just parts he cherry-picks out and can ignore the rest?



Scuba said:
Whether one is under the Law or not the Law still defines sin but only in its letter form. In other words, the Law says, "Thou shall not commit adultery". This is a good rule to obey but it only covers physical adultery. A person under the Old Covenant can lust all day long and still not break the Law. This changes under the New Covenant.

So is one under the OT law or the changed NT law for one cannot follow two different, non-compatible laws?



Scuba said:
Grace does away with the punishment while leaving intact the definition of sin.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

What this is asking is that since we are not subject to the Law's punishment does that mean we can now go out and sin? Certainly not!

We are not subject to the Law's punishment because Jesus took that on our behalf which now places us in the state of grace, even though adultery is still a sin.
I do not see in Rom 6:15 where this verse even remotely says Christ took away the punishment of the OT law but left the law itself.

Rom 6:14 Paul says "for ye are not under law, but under grace" Paul tells his readers they are not under the OT law but under NT grace. So in v15 the question that naturally arises is if one is not under the OT law's requirement for perfect, flawless law keeping but under grace, does that mean one is allowed to sin at various times? Paul answers "God forbid" just because one is under grace does not allow one to freely sin. Paul has points out the Christian is one that is justified - freed from sin (v17,18) and the Christian has "obedience unto righteousness" (v16). Justification and righteousness saves one from sin, not allows one to sin, else they mean nothing. Those that seek God's grace will seek God's forgiveness and have no desire to sin thereby observe/keep Christ's NT law to keep from sin.




Scuba said:
Sin is still sin but grace removes the punishment.

There is a good example of this found in John 8:3-6.

In this story the Pharisees brought to Jesus a lang caught in the act of adultery. They point out the fact that the Law commanded punishment. Notice the sin and its required punishment.

John 8:3-6 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?” This they said, testing Him, that they might havesomething of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

Now notice Jesus' response. He tells her that she is not condemned (no punishment) but He keeps the definition of sin, which was adultery by telling her not to do it again.

John 8:10-11 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,“Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go andsin no more.”

God's definition of sin stays the same, adultery is still adultery and the Sabbath is still the seventh day.

The events in Jn 8 were those men were NOT following the OT law in accusing the woman of sin and they knew it. They asked Jesus "what sayest thou". They asked Jesus "tempting him, that they might have to accuse him". So these men were NOT following the law in accusing this woman and they were tempting Jesus to break the law also in accusing this woman as they were so they could then accuse Jesus of breaking the law. It has nothing to do with any idea of Jesus taking away punishment of the law but Jesus was not tempted into breaking the law by those men.

You have no dust on your shoes to kick off.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9
Be blessed brother and keep fighting the good fight of faith. Always remember this, the secret to resisting the Beast is to maintain a steadfast endurance in following the commandments of God and hold on to our faith in the finished work of Jesus.

Revelation 14:11-12And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.” This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to their faith in Jesus.

do this, and you will still fail miserably, (according to the law)

and still be condemned by the same law you demand we all follow. Good luck.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#10
the problem with the lawyers, is the same problem the pharisees had.

they look to the law. and see they are keeping it, or at least try real hard and do not see where they break it (of course it is all about self)

where if they would humble themselves (like nicodemus and saul did) they would see the law, and see how wretched they are, and totally unable, no matter how hard they try, to keep the law.

Then they would be like the sinner, who fell on his knees, unable to feel himself even to look up to God. and beg for Gods mercy and grace, Instead of being th eones who beat there chests praising God they are not like the all those poor lawless sinners.

All we can do is pray one day they see this, Like paul did. For then there will be hope. for them also.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#11
Oft times these threads become a little silly. What part of Gods word are we to not be under? Jesus said that the word of God would never pass away. The law is part of Gods word, correct?

By the grace of God the condemnation brought by the law has been satisfied.

Which one of the laws are we not obligated to acknowledge? If we are going to assay to eat this elephant we are going to need to go one bite at a time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jun 26, 2014
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#13

do this, and you will still fail miserably, (according to the law)

and still be condemned by the same law you demand we all follow. Good luck.
Revelation 14:11-12 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.”This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to their faith in Jesus.

Obey the commandments of God and stand firm in our faith in Jesus. Obedience is just as important to God's people as the finished work of Jesus' cross.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#14
To change the scripture saying we are not under law to a scripture saying we should not try to keep the law is truly silly. It say that trying to put on Christ without working to avoid sin in our lives, is also just silly. To say that anyone trying to keep the law is fooling themselves so they shouldn't try is silly, it is like telling an athlete to give up training because they will never be superman.

The Pharisees obeyed ritual about law. Works motivated by the heart are not Pharisee like.

When we are told that we aren't under law it means that God doesn't look to the law to save us, God looks to grace. That is not saying we must not look at law because we look at grace, first.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#15
I seriously doubt that you can see what is written on any heart. It is also unlikely that you have seen the law written in stone not to mention that it was written in ancient Hebrew.

Now lets see what we can actually discuss about the law. Do you want to focus on the ten laws given to Moses or the whole 613 that the Jews were obligated to keep? Pick one and tell me about it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#16
Revelation 14:11-12 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.”This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to their faith in Jesus.

Obey the commandments of God and stand firm in our faith in Jesus. Obedience is just as important to God's people as the finished work of Jesus' cross.
God's people will obey.

they will not be perfect.

stop holding yourself as more worthy than the next guy, in Gods eyes your not, and never will be.

and the commands in rev are all of them, not just ten.. well over 1000 commands in scripture. how good at you at keeping all of them 100%.
 
May 15, 2013
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#17
Oft times these threads become a little silly. What part of Gods word are we to not be under? Jesus said that the word of God would never pass away. The law is part of Gods word, correct?

By the grace of God the condemnation brought by the law has been satisfied.

Which one of the laws are we not obligated to acknowledge? If we are going to assay to eat this elephant we are going to need to go one bite at a time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yeah, the Laws would never pass away, that if we fully understand them. Like if someone lusted after someone else, the Laws will remind us that we had stray away from expectancy and that we aren't perfect; and then it will show that there's no need to be upset with our enemies, because we now know that they aren't perfect as well. It doesn't make any sense to argue at someone for not standing straight in church when they aren't able to stand upright. So the Laws is still going to stay with us in a spiritual sense to measure how much we have had matured from our pass life. Once we had reached our mark, we will know that the Laws weren't Laws at all, but it was something that help guided us to stay in the presence of God, like a shepherd's crook. And if there weren't any crook to catch us and keep us from fallen away, we would have been so far away from God's presence and most likely we be in the deepest part of the pit.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#18
God's people will obey.

they will not be perfect.

stop holding yourself as more worthy than the next guy, in Gods eyes your not, and never will be.

and the commands in rev are all of them, not just ten.. well over 1000 commands in scripture. how good at you at keeping all of them 100%.
Would you explain why you feel so touchy about anyone wanting to obey God. You repeat over and over that people are claiming to be perfect, and I have never read a poster who claims that?

Everyone knows they are not perfect, yet you feel a need to bring that up in almost every post as if it is something no one but you knows.

I could understand that you repeat bible truths, but not that you use these truths as a way to accuse others.

Also, you say God's people will obey. I have seen you, in your posts, not obey even, just like the rest of us. Scripture tells us to not murder others by what we say about them, and boy, can you get some doozies off labeling people.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#19
I believe the Law written in our hearts is the New Testament Law. I believe this NT Law is also called the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). For there are commands for us to obey in the New Testament. However, we are not to obey the Old Testament Law because it was it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ upon the cross (Hebrews 8:13). For a testament is not in effect while the testator liveth and no testament is not dedicated without blood. In fact, Jesus said at the last supper, that the wine represented His blood that was shed for the remission of sins for the New Testament. The Temple veil was torn. Meaning, the animal sacrifices were no longer acceptable anymore under the Old Covenant. Jesus is our sacrifice. It's why Jesus said not to put new wine into old wine skins. It's why the Jews could no longer go back to washing themselves in their ceremonial containers because they were filled with wine because of Jesus' miracle at the Wedding at Cana. For the wine represented His blood. They could not go back to washing themselves in the water with those containers with their Old Covenant ways anymore. For Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. What ordinances? The ordinances in the Old Testament Law of Moses.

Then what is the purpose of the Old Testament? Well, Jesus said to the Jews that the Scriptures spoke about Him. So everything (Including the OT) speaks about Jesus Christ and points to Him as our Savior. For the Bible is all about Jesus Christ and what He did for us. For the Old Testament was just a shadow of what was to come. So there are many parallels in the Old Testament that point to Jesus that one can find if you were to look for them. For there is no salvation in any other name but Jesus Christ. For Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. It's just up to us if we want His free gift of salvation and desire in continuing to keep it or not. For God does not force anyone to be saved.
 
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Hashe

Guest
#20
There is a big problem with focusing on sin. It isn't about sin.
Sin stops relationship with God. Jesus opens relationship with God.
When you have Jesus, it isn't about sin, it is about continuing in relationship with God.
Therefore, there is no point in worrying about 'law'. It is about hearing the Holy Spirit.