The phony evangelism of Calvinism

[gregfl]

[SIZE=-1]Calvinism, when consistently taken to its logical conclusions, implies all of the following:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. God's offers of salvation to "whosoever will" are insincere. God is not completely honest in Scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. God offers to save the non-elect IF they will do what is utterly impossible. God taunts the damned.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. God created most people for the purpose of torturing them forever. God is cruel and sadistic.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]4. God CAN save all, and DESIRES to save all, but chooses to damn many for no apparent reason. God is insane.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5. God controls Satan's every move, and every wicked act of the most vile sinner. God is the source of all evil.[/SIZE]

 

[Hashe]

if God is not great, why ask Him to intervene?
this is an attitude of humility before Him, presupposing He is greater than we are, or we would get our own 'daily bread,' deliver ourselves from temptation & evil, and of ourselves cause His will to be done, or instead do our own will.

Clearly you don't understand what you are talking about.
Asking something, is different from merely stating something.
This is my point. These passages, 'ask' and don't just 'state'.
The reason you ask is immaterial, the point is, that we are taught, by Jesus, to ask.

 

[Ukorin]

[SIZE=-1]Calvinism, when consistently taken to its logical conclusions, implies all of the following:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. God's offers of salvation to "whosoever will" are insincere. God is not completely honest in Scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. God offers to save the non-elect IF they will do what is utterly impossible. God taunts the damned.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. God created most people for the purpose of torturing them forever. God is cruel and sadistic.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]4. God CAN save all, and DESIRES to save all, but chooses to damn many for no apparent reason. God is insane.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5. God controls Satan's every move, and every wicked act of the most vile sinner. God is the source of all evil.[/SIZE]

If this is your logical conclusion, then you don't understand what mainline Calvinist doctrine really says.

Your 1st and primary assumption is that people don't choose to go to hell. This is false.
All men have chosen hell over obeying God.
Each individual, including the saved, have made the choice to reject the ways of God, and follow their own desires.
God has changed the rules, by sending His Son to die in the place of His Chosen remnant of humanity.

God did not destined any to hell. We used our freewill to chose hell for ourselves.
However, God gives faith to some, a gift they did not earn or deserve,
and gives them a rebirth in spirit, so that they can escape what they deserve, and not end up in the destiny they chose for themselves.

Predestination is only to heaven, not to hell. No man but Christ ever chose to follow God instead of choosing hell.

People do not go to hell unwillingly.
No one but Christ has ever chosen heaven willingly.


Your second assumption, highlighted in your 4th point, is that people don't deserve hell.
If you don't understand this, then how can you claim salvation in any doctrine?

All men deserve hell, except Christ.

 

[Ukorin]

All men choose to sin, out of their own free will.
The punishment is hell.

But God has mercy, and pulls some from the fire to keep for Himself, because He loves what He created, even though it hates Him.

We do not pull ourselves from the fire.
We keep trying to jump back in.

But God gives us a new spirit, so that we no longer desire to go back to where we once were.

 

[Ukorin]

From our perspective, we chose God.

The Bible tells the story from God's point of view: He chose us.

You can reject that,
but it will be a true blessing when you do see the truth beyond your own perspective. (and you likely will soon if you keep studying this topic)

 

[SeaBass]

I am sorry to say sea bass you are wrong brother here are some verses.

John 10:27-29 ESV / 62 helpful votes

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
​

John 6:37 ESV / 53 helpful votes

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
​

God will not allow Christ's sheep to be snatched out of His hand NOT because of the man made idea of eternal security, that some add to the text, but because the sheep are faithful in their hearing and following Christ, v27. If the sheep become unfaithful in their hearing and following, they remove themselves from God's hand.

Just as the verbs "hear" and "follow" in Jn 10:27 are present tense, the verb "comes" in Jn 6:37 is present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained coming to Christ. If one quits coming to Christ he will be lost. "Cast out" is subjunctive mood meaing one may or may not be cast out depending on if he continues to come to Christ or not.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: The phony evangelism of Arminianism

SeaBass, is it Christian to be dishonest?

Do you willfully fail to go through 6:9? Where the verses are explained as not speaking of Christians, but apostates, that is mere professors?


Where does "free will" occur in Heb 4:11?
You got proof of that one?

Can you prove that the heart of man is not deceitful above all things & desperately wicked & that actions come out of that heart? Can you prove that man does not always act out his nature?



What is your proof of that one?
1 John 2 declares that the apostate was never saved, never "of us," and that the departure proves the apostate was never in the Body of Christ. Moreover, Judas had a demon.

Let Him who dismisses the Lord Jesus as a mere chance giver, repent & trust Him as Savior.'

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

The dishonesty is when the Hebrew writer describes the Christians he is talking about as "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" yet some try to say these words do not describe one who is a Christian only to protect a man-made theological bias.

The Hebrew writer then says of these Christians "If they shall fall away" How can one fall away if he was ALWAYS fallen? Not possible. So the Hebrew writer is speaking of Christians that can fall away.

Heb 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

The Hebrew writer is writing to Christians, the "us" in the verse and warns them of falling away because of unbelief.

Lk 6:13 "And when it was day, he (Jesus) called unto him his disciples (Judas being one): and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;"

Judas is called a disciple of Christ just as much as the others. If there is any reason to think Judas was not in a saved position here then there is no reason to think any of the other disciples here were saved either.


Jesus's people are Christians and the group Christian will be saved. One can be in this group today yet because of unbelief (Heb 4:11) fall away from this saved group down the road of time.

 

[SeaBass]

Not in the way you seem to be talking about. Evangelizing would be part of the "calling"

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Sonwould be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.​

I guess you could say that one's salvation depends on being called by God and that he seems fit to call people through the proclaiming of the gospel. But maybe you and the Calvinist would disagree on whether or not the proclaiming of and call of the gospel is an act of God or act of man. Paul suggests it's an act of God:

Gal 2:8 for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me in sending me to the Gentiles

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is God’s power for salvation to everyone who believes
​

So maybe the Calvinist would just say that both the gospel and it's proclamation are works of God. Maybe you could see it differently if you asked yourself whether or not you are proclaiming the gospel of your own power?



Trying to poison the well? I can do that too, I just try to be a little more rational in my dealings with others.

Evangelism is a work, so it takes the work of evangelizing to save others, 1 Cor 1:21..preaching saves.. Rom 10 Paul says how can one believe unless he hears and how can he hear without a preacher. Paul also says in Rom 10 that faith comes by hearing the word of God.

So Calvinistic predestination and evangelizing/the great commission do not jibe.

In other words, before the world began God predetermined "Joe" to be saved.

Can Joe ever be saved WITHOUT having the gospel preached to him? If not, then Joe's salvation becomes dependent upon the work of another. No work = no salvation for Joe. Even if God predetermined/forced another person to preach to Joe, a WORK must still be performed for Joe to be saved.


God called certain men to be apostles before the gospel was written. These men went about preaching and writing the gospel. We today have the gospel and therefore are called by that gospel 2 Thess 2:14. So the gospel call goes out through preaching, men hear and answer that call by faith. Christ's great commission that has been commanded is the way the gospel call goes out, men hear and answer that gospel call.

The preaching of the gospel is to bring about salvation in the hearer, but if God has already saved the hearer then preaching the gospel to those already saved changes nothing. If God has predetermined one to be lost, then preaching the gospel to him changes nothing either. So the great commission serves no valid purpose under Calvinism.

 

[SeaBass]

my dear fishy friend,
how many times do i need to quote this scripture to you?

One of you will say to me:

“Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”​

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?

“Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”​

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay
some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

(Romans 9:19-21)

So you are taking Rom 9 out of context to claim God forced/caused those people to not to hear. Then God sends them prophets, already knowing they will not hear because God caused them not to hear and then God punishes those people for not hearing, even though God is the cause of their inability to hear?

Very convoluted theology. Even though God caused them not to hear, did God still expect them to hear when He sent them prophets to preach to them? So God caused them not to hear and then is upset/angry when they do not hear? Essentially God made Himself angry by causing them not to hear but takes His anger out on them for what God caused Himself. Convoluted indeed.

 

[SeaBass]

All men choose to sin, out of their own free will.
The punishment is hell.

But God has mercy, and pulls some from the fire to keep for Himself, because He loves what He created, even though it hates Him.

We do not pull ourselves from the fire.
We keep trying to jump back in.

But God gives us a new spirit, so that we no longer desire to go back to where we once were.

What basis did God use to save "Joe" and not "Jack"? Was there anything different about Joe from Jack? Was there no basis as all but just pure randomness Joe was selected to be saved and not Jack? If there was a basis God used, can a Calvinist tells us what that basis was? If not, why? If not, how does a Calvinist even know if he is a selected one or not?

 

[chubbena]

if God is not great, why ask Him to intervene?
this is an attitude of humility before Him, presupposing He is greater than we are, or we would get our own 'daily bread,' deliver ourselves from temptation & evil, and of ourselves cause His will to be done, or instead do our own will.

Because some believe their prayers would move God to do things otherwise He wouldn't not realizing His sovereignty not realizing before we ask He has already known and acted.

 

[SeaBass]

From our perspective, we chose God.

The Bible tells the story from God's point of view: He chose us.

You can reject that,
but it will be a true blessing when you do see the truth beyond your own perspective. (and you likely will soon if you keep studying this topic)

Biblically, God chose the group Christian but God never determined what person would or would not be in this group for God left that responsibility up to each man Therefore if a man is not in this group that is man's fault, not God's for God never made it His responsibility as to who would or would not be in the group. Therefore it is God's desire, wish (perceptive will NOT decretive will) that all men come to repentance and be saved.

 

[Grandpa]

God is obviously sovereign.

We just don't realize it until after the fact.

Satan must have thought that his plan was brilliant, in putting Christ to death. It must have looked like, to everyone, that satan had won that round.

But, after the fact, we see that God is sovereign. Totally sovereign. Even to the foundation of creation and the beginning of time.

By seeing that God is in fact sovereign, obviously so in the case of Christ, why would we think that carnal man could wrest this sovereignty from the Almighty? Gods ways are far above our ways.

 

[gregfl]

The commonality of death-love between Islam and Calvinism will be examined, as well as Calvinism’s other astonishing commonalties with Islam, particularly the “Gospel of Sovereignty.”

Calvinism and Islam: The Tie That Binds; the Doctrine of Death | Paul's Passing Thoughts

 

[Grandpa]

I would say that a calvinists evangelism is more akin to a realists.

The calvinistic leaning evangelist won't be as easily discouraged as one who thinks it is his own ability drawing people to the Lord. If you think it is your own ability and you don't bring anyone to Christ then you could easily decide that its not your "calling". If you realize it is God who is sovereign then you don't question the immediate results. Because the far-ranging results of what God has you to do can't be seen by you...

 

[Grandpa]

The bible can't be trusted if God is not sovereign.

If people can over-ride God's sovereignty then each promise in the bible must have this in paranthesis (unless the "free-will" of man over-rides God's sovereignty).

We would be in constant worry and trepidation if it were us who were in complete control. Thankfully, there is One who is much more powerful than we are that we can trust.

 

[JimmieD]

Calvinism and Islam: The Tie That Binds; the Doctrine of Death | Paul's Passing Thoughts

Your link is funny. Does that guy realize that Luther wasn't a Calvinist?

 

[Ukorin]

What basis did God use to save "Joe" and not "Jack"? Was there anything different about Joe from Jack? Was there no basis as all but just pure randomness Joe was selected to be saved and not Jack? If there was a basis God used, can a Calvinist tells us what that basis was? If not, why? If not, how does a Calvinist even know if he is a selected one or not?

These are not questions of doctrine, but questioning the motive and mind of God.
The Word says that He knew them and loved them before the world was created.
The basis is His love, not randomness.

 

[Ukorin]

The first idea about "group" is very meaningless, and impersonal,
As if God merely created the idea and requirements for those to be saved, yet has no plan for the individual.

The second point was just proven wrong in my 3 previous posts.
Man is not responsible for choosing heaven, because we all chose hell. All men are responsible for that choice, except for those that God has redeemed. Jesus has taken the responsibility for them.

 

[Ukorin]

A person knows they are saved, because God places a calling upon them.

The word is "faith".
Personal assurance of salvation certainly comes with obedience, as we show ourselves to be what the Word says that He will make us.