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Thread: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

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    Default Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    I was searching the internet and came across a Christian Chat conversation from 2010 at
    Proving that the Hebrew Masoretic Text is right and the Greek Septuagint is wrong

    I decided to join Christian Chat in search of an theoretical mathematician who will review the problem discussed in the following article. Please email at [email protected] if you find someone.

    The following describes the problem and why I need a theoretical mathematician who will go public.

    Genesis Accuracy: University Finds Mathematical Proof

    By Gioacchino Michael Cascione [email protected] author of “In Search of the Biblical Order”
    One of the last places one would look for a complex mathematical formula is in the Book of Genesis. While completing the last chapter of my new book, “Repetition in the Bible: The Phenomenon of Divine Communication,” a mathematical formula connecting Genesis 5 and 11 was observed.

    Without taking the time to give a lengthy explanation, there is mathematical equation in the ages of the 10 patriarchs from Adam to Noah and in the 10 patriarchs from Shem to Abraham. The following is a chart listing their ages, their ages at the birth of their notable sons, and the years they lived after the birth of their notable son as found in the Bible.


    Patriarch total age age at birth of son years after son’s birth Patriarch total age age at birth of son years after son’s birth
    Adam 930 130 800 Shem 600 100 500
    Seth 912 105 807 Arpachshad 438 35 403
    Enosh 905 90 815 Shelah 433 30 403
    Cainan 910 70 840 Eber 464 34 430
    Mahalalel 895 65 830 Peleg 239 30 209
    Jared 962 162 800 Reu 239 32 207
    Enoch 365 65 300 Serug 230 30 200
    Methuselah 969 187 782 Nahor 148 29 119
    Lamech 777 182 595 Terah 205 (70) 135
    Noah 950 500 450 Abraham 175 100 75
    8575 3171




















    The initial pattern was found in the 7 headed beasts with 10 horns in Revelation (Rev. 12:3; 13:1; 17:1, 3). These Hebraic symbols can either be added for a total of 17 or multiplied for a total of 70. The same pattern is found in the literal dates for the beginning of the flood on the 17th day of the 2nd month (Gen. 7:11), and the Ark’s landing on Ararat on the 17th day of the 7th month (Gen. 8:4). This is a total of 150 day as explained by the great rabbinic scholar Umberto Cassuto, a key source for this research.

    The total ages of the 10 patriarchs from Adam to Noah are 8575 years. This total is divisible by 7. The ages of the 7 oldest patriarchs, when added to 8575 creates a list of 17 numbers for a total of 15,113 years. This number is divisible by 17. The odds of such a coincidence are 119 to 1.

    The same approach was applied to the second list of patriarchs from Shem to Abraham whose total ages add up to 3,171 years. This number is also divisible by 7. The 7 largest numbers were added to 3,171 for a total of 5,814. This number is also divisible by 17. The odds of both lists exhibiting these same properties are 14,161 to 1, if the individual experimenting with simple math knew what he was looking for. However, because the second list is smaller than the first, the odds are higher. In regular math common denominators increase, not decrease.

    The calculations in these two lists share identical properties. Hence there is no question that they are governed by the same mathematical formula. (More unusual properties of these numbers are listed at the end of this article.)
    The question is, “If these lists were humanly devised, what would the formula look like to arrive at these numbers?” How was it done? With this question in mind, assistance was requested from a Doctoral candidate in engineering at Iowa State University. After a number of attempts he recommended a 4th year math wiz, Matt Swanson [email protected] for a solution to the problem. After examining the problem Swanson consulted a doctoral student in mathematics. She and Swanson were able to get close but they could not find the exact solution which they determined was based in modular mathematics.

    They both recommended that I locate a theoretical mathematician at another university because Iowa State excels in statistical and scientific mathematics. Swanson also provided 3 pages of mathematical equations to help me present the problem to a doctor of theoretical mathematics.

    After searching for an expert at another university in a different state, the secretary directed me to 2 of 8 theoretical mathematicians on their faculty, who were still available in June of this year. I did not explain what the problem was, other than I needed to consult a theoretical mathematician. The doctor I met graciously gave his time but he will not allow me to give out his name. He solved the problem. He also consulted an expert in the history of mathematics who wrote the following reply from his cell phone:

    “It is my understanding that the Chinese Remainder Theorem was unknown in the Mediterranean basin prior to when they learned it from the Chinese. Quotient and remainders were important to the Babylonians, and the Euclid algorithm, as a method for finding common measures, is probably even older. But there are Chinese instruments and tables for using the CRT for counting after 520 AD, but I am pretty sure no middle or European counterparts identified as such. If they did use it, there should at least be tables that make it practice. Calculating using an algorithm would not have [been] practical for everyday problems.”

    In other words Moses was the greatest Mathematician of the ancient world by 2000 years, or someone else rewrote these numbers 500 years after Christ, or Moses had help from another source.

    The calculations I received from the anonymous professor were sent to Swanson for verification. Swanson states that the calculations are correct and the anonymous professor found the solution. By coincidence the anonymous professor is an Orthodox Jew who reads Hebrew and views his findings as further affirmation of the authenticity of the Masoretic Text and that Moses is an historic figure.

    I need a PhD in Mathematics to examine these calculations, and go on record that they are correct.
    Calculations from Anonymous University Professor on Ages of the Antediluvian and Postdiluvian Patriarchs
    “I worked a bit on the problem, and realized that my initial thought was not quite right. I think that the student you talked with was on the right track. So far this is what I can do:

    If you specify 9 numbers, and look for a 10th which satisfies your rules about divisibility, and where the 10th number is not among the 3 smallest numbers in the set of ten, then you can find the 10th number using this formula:
    76*(the sum of the 9 numbers)+ 42*(the sum of the 6 largest numbers of the 9 you specify) - 119*n
    where n is a whole number. In your case for the antediluvian ages, the sum of the 9 smallest ages is 7606, and the sum of the larger 6 of those is 5569, so the formula is 76*7606+42*5569-n*119=811954-119*n. The remainder of 811954 modulo 119 is 17. You get that with n=6823. However, if we need our number to be among the 7 largest ones, it must be at least 895. With n=6815, we get 969. with n=6816, we get 850 which is too small. 969 is the smallest solution that satisfies both the divisibility constraints and also is at least 895. Of course we can keep adding 119 to 969 and we will get an infinite number of additional solutions 1088, 1207, 1326,...
    When I try the same rule with the post-diluvian numbers, I get 76*2571+42*2043-119*n=281202-119*n. Possible values that show up are 243, 362, 481, 600, 719, 838 etc. The desired value of 600 shows up, but, it is not the first solution that is sufficiently large. Even if we had specified that our missing number had to be the largest age, the constraint would have been satisfied by the value of 481.
    I have also looked at the case where the missing number is one of the 3 smaller ones. In that case, you get a different formula, but the solution is not so special.
    The formula is:
    118*(sum of the 9 specified numbers)+84*(sum of the 7 largest specified numbers)-119*m where m is a whole number. You can check that this works with the antediluvian numbers if you exclude 365. In that case you get the sum of the 9 numbers as 8210 and of the 7 larger numbers as 6538. The formula becomes 1517972-119*m. Using m=12753 we recover the value of 365, but, other possible values are 8, 127, 246, 484, 603, and 722.
    If you want to allow the missing number to be either in the set of the 3 smallest or in the 7 largest, I do not have a single formula that I can use. I suspect that the unknown n's and m's in my formulas could be defined a bit better if I can use some more complicated functions in the formula (the floor function or some other sort of rounding function).
    76*(the sum of the 9 numbers) + 42*(the sum of the 6 largest numbers of the 9 you specify) - 119*n is arrived at.
    We are looking for a number (call it X) so that when it is added to the sum of the 9 numbers (call that sum S) is divisible by 7, and when twice that number (2X) is added to S and also to the sum of the 6 larger numbers of the 9 specified (call that sum L) is divisible by 17. We can write that as X+S = 0 modulo 7 and 2X+S+L=0 modulo 17.
    We can rewrite those modular equalities as X=-S mod 7 and 2X=-S-L mod 17.
    Now we need to use a very neat trick that allows us to effectively divide through by 2 when we work modulo 17. Since 2*9=18=1 modulo 17, multiplying by 9 modulo 17 accomplishes the same thing as dividing by 2. That allows us to write X=9*2*X=-9(S+L) mod 17.
    That means we are looking for a number X which is -S modulo 7 and which is -9(S+L) modulo 17.
    There is a famous theorem called the Chinese remainder theorem first published in the 3rd to 5th centuries by Chinese mathematician Sun Tzu (according to Wikipedia) . It says that if you have two simultaneous congruences, and the moduli do not share any common factors (in this case that is that 7 and 17 have no factors in common), then you can find a unique solution modulo the product of the moduli (in this case modulo 119). Say we have congruences X=A mod 7 and X=B mod 17. If we find find numbers c and d so that 7c=1 modulo 17 and 17d=1 modulo 7, then setting X=A*(17*d)+B*(7*c), we see that modulo 7, X=A*(17*d)=A*1=A, and modulo 17, X=B*(7*c)=B*1=B. It is also true that adding or subtracting any multiple of 7*17=119 will not change this result.
    In our case, it is easy to check that 7*5=35=1+2*17=1 modulo 17, and 17*5=85=1+12*7=1 modulo 7 so we can use c=d=5. (There is a quick algorithm based on the Euclidean algorithm that can be used to find the right values for c and d). To get the congruences we need for our X, we use X=-S(17*5)-9(S+L)(7*5) modulo 119.
    I want to simplify this a bit, so I group together all the terms involving S to get X=(-17*5-9*7*5)S-(9*7*5)L modulo 119.
    Finally I reduce the coefficients modulo 119 using that -17*5-9*7*5=-400=76-4*119=76 modulo 119, and -9*7*5=-315=42-3*119=42 modulo 119
    This gives the formula X=76*S+42*L mod 119 or equivalently X=76*S+42*L-119*n for some whole number n.
    It does all seem pretty complicated, but, each step just relies on the properties of modular arithmetic. Most of the ordinary things that you can do with algebraic equations also work for arithmetic modulo some number (called the modulus). Division is the operation that is a bit tricky, but as you saw, we replaced dividing by 2 by multiplying by 9 modulo 17. That kind of trick can always be worked providing the number you want to invert shares no factors with the modulus.

    If you prefer, you can just produce the formula and verify directly that it produces the desired results:
    We can check that the calculation works directly by adding X to S X+S=76*S+42*L-119*n+S=77*S+42*L-119*n=7(11*S+6*L-17*n) and of course that is divisible by 7. Adding 2X to S+L we get 2X+S+L=154*S+84*L-2*119*n+S+L=153*S+85*L-2*119*n=17(9*S+5*L-14*n) and that is divisible by 17.
    Your other constraint for the 10th number is that it should be larger than the smallest 3 numbers from your original 9 in the sum S. (If it were not, then the new number would not need to be added twice, and the calculation would change.) This can always be arranged by adding multiples of 119 to X (i.e. making the value of n smaller in the formula for X).
    Regarding the math that the Hebrews or other ancients knew, you may want to consult a math historian to get more depth. Sometimes special cases or more cumbersome variants of algorithms or theorems may have been known, and those may not make it into Wikipedia etc. I would like to ask one of my colleagues about this issue if that is OK with you. I do not need to describe your observations, but, I would need to explain the question of whether the ancients might have been able to solve this sort of divisibility problem.”
    The reply was published earlier in the article.

    More properties of these lists:
    The following observations about these lists were not included as constraints in the formula. The first list is divisible by 7 cubed. As a Hebraic symbol, 7 cubed can also be viewed as 7 + 3 =10. Also 7 cubed = 343, which as a Hebraic symbol also equals 10. The total of the 7 largest numbers in the first list is divisible by 7 as is the total of the 3 smallest numbers. The age of Lamech, Noah’s father, is 777.

    The total of the 7 numbers from the bottom up in the second list is divisible by 7.

    By coincidence the key number that must be present in the first list, in order for the formula work is 969, which happens to be the age of Methuselah. A key number that must be in the algorithm of both lists is 119, the number of years Nahor lived after the birth of Terah.

    We suspect there are more numerical relationships in these numbers. However, the Septuagint changes the numbers, adds 1466 years to the age of the earth, and does not exhibit any numerical properties in the list.
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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    What is your point? I excelled in math, including statistics and calculus, and I don't have a clue what you are trying to prove here. My thought is if it is this complex, you are not proving anything to anyone. Just believe God, the Bible is true. You don't need to prove it.
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Looks like a lot of effort looking for patterns that don't really exist. I can see a fuzzy kitten in the clouds if I look hard enough. It reminds me of the Jim Carrey movie "The Number 23" where he goes crazy seeing the number 23 everywhere.

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    What is your point? I excelled in math, including statistics and calculus, and I don't have a clue what you are trying to prove here. My thought is if it is this complex, you are not proving anything to anyone. Just believe God, the Bible is true. You don't need to prove it.
    I agree.........faith is the evidence of things not seen.....It is evident that God is the master mathematician........!

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    The Bible is simple enough for a child to wade in yet deep enough for an elephant to drown. However, there are people who think it is virtuous to keep the intellectual content of their faith at the child’s level. But God expects us to grow in knowledge over the course of our Christian lives.

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    I do know that numbers plays a big part in the scriptures, like God had the Israelites to make an count of each member in each tribe. I know that there is hidden numeric messages in the scriptures as well; like the number 4 signifies purification or judgment and which the Hebrews were in the wilderness for 40 years. and then the number 10 signify that it is time to pay the Piper, and which 40 x 10 = 400 years in captivity to be purified under their captive. And Jesus had came in on the mourning of the fourth day or 4,500 years old earth because it was time for sentencing or to pay what is due. There's certain patterns all through the scriptures if you look real carefully you will see them.

    1 means innocent or beginning.

    2 means Warning or to be aware of.

    3 means coming of the Lord or His power.

    4 means Purify or judgment.

    5 means grace

    6 means prophetic, prophecy, prophet.

    7 means completion.

    8 means rebirth or new beginning.

    9 means to join or to connect.

    10 means to pay the Piper or tithe.

    11 means to scatter or separate.

    12 means to gather or the gathering.

    Numbers 14:22 not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times— (10 x 4 =)
    2 Samuel 12:6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”( David had four things that had happened to his family, and so we should be careful what we say.)
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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    The Bible is simple enough for a child to wade in yet deep enough for an elephant to drown. However, there are people who think it is virtuous to keep the intellectual content of their faith at the child’s level. But God expects us to grow in knowledge over the course of our Christian lives.

    Well it's way over my head but I think it's a fascinating post. Thank you and sorry I can be of no help.

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    The Bible is simple enough for a child to wade in yet deep enough for an elephant to drown. However, there are people who think it is virtuous to keep the intellectual content of their faith at the child’s level. But God expects us to grow in knowledge over the course of our Christian lives.

    Don't misunderstand my point.....numbers are through and through and a study of the 10 names found in the lineage of faith tell the story of the fall and redemption of man.....yes we are to increase with knowledge and search the unsearchable riches of Christ....most people cannot tell you the books of the bible much less understand what your point is/was.........other than you need a Mathematician to verify your use of a chart that seems to have been produced by Gioacchino Michael Cascione or did you produce the chart?

    And no offence, but inflammatory, accusatory statements like....."
    However, there are people who think it is virtuous to keep the intellectual content of their faith at the child’s level."

    Is somewhat childish, uncalled for and to be quite frank, something that a 12 year old in 6th grade would say if their friends chose to not play with them on the playground.
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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    It appears that a number of people on this thread are opposed to my search for theoretical mathematician to check these calculations.

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    It appears that a number of people on this thread are opposed to my search for theoretical mathematician to check these calculations.
    Not really, they just hasn't have any clue in what you are searching for; they can't relate numbers with scriptures, because it is way out of their league. It is like an Astronomer that had came up to you and tell you the stories about that the stars and how it matches up with the scriptures. You know numbers but the Astronomer knows the cosmos.

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by 4enlightment View Post
    Not really, they just hasn't have any clue in what you are searching for; they can't relate numbers with scriptures, because it is way out of their league. It is like an Astronomer that had came up to you and tell you the stories about that the stars and how it matches up with the scriptures. You know numbers but the Astronomer knows the cosmos.
    The word (they) above is a broad stroke of the brush.....many understand how numerical value is woven through scripture and the fact that both the Hebrew Alphabet and Greek Alphabet have numerical value.

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    As I said, I have taken and excelled in courses in university math and science on my undergrad degree. I am all for intellectual knowledge and learning. I have an MDiv, I read Hebrew and Greek, and I am i the process of applying for a Ph.D in theology.

    But what the OP suggests to me is psychosis. I am a chaplain, I know there are lots of numerical mysteries in the Bible as well as things that are understood such as what 4enlightenment posted. I also know quite a bit about mental illness. However, I decided not to bring that up, and instead just give you my opinion about such futile searches.

    Exegetically, this type of post makes no sense. You seem to be wandering around in a wasteland of trying to make x=y. To put it simply! A much better way of deciphering the Bible is to pray, believing and read the Bible. Learning the original languages would be another intellectually honest way to study the Bible.

    However, your post appears to have no point, a lot of equations and Bible verses that don't make mathematical sense to me. By the way, we used to have a resident mathematician but he left.

    Sorry to have questioned your integrity, but a familiarity with the nature and manifestations of psychosis makes me distrust this whole OP.
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    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    So, I must be mentally ill because I'm seeking assistance from a theoretical mathematician.

    If its Greek you want, this is one of the reasons I need a theoretical mathematician or would you prefer Hebrew?

    “My Father who is in the heavens” 7 times in the Gospel of Matthew
    My Father who is in the heavens…..τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (Mat 7:21 BNT)
    My Father who is in the heavens…..τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν [τοῖς] οὐρανοῖς (Mat 10:32 BNT)
    My Father who is in the heavens…..τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν [τοῖς] οὐρανοῖς (Mat 10:33 BNT)
    My Father who is in the heavens…..τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν οὐρανοῖς (Mat 12:50 BNT)
    My Father who is in the heavens…...…ὁ πατήρ μουἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (Mat 16:17 BNT)
    My Father who is in the heavens…..τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν οὐρανοῖς (Mat 18:10 BNT)
    My Father who is in the heavens…..τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν οὐρανοῖς (Mat 18:19 BNT)
    (the father of me the in heavens)

    “Your Father who is in the heavens” 7 times in the Gospel of Matthew
    Your Father who is in the heavens...τὸν πατέρα ὑμῶν τὸν ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (Mat 5:16 BNT)
    Your Father who is in the heavens...τοῦ πατρὸς ὑμῶν τοῦ ἐν οὐρανοῖς, (Mat 5:45 BNT)
    Your Father who is in the heavens….ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (Mat 5:48 BYZ, GOC, SCR, STE)*
    Your Father who is in the heavens...τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (Mat 6:1 BNT)
    Your Father who is in the heavens…..ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (Mat 7:11 BNT)
    Your Father who is in the heavens...τοῦ πατρὸς ὑμῶν τοῦ ἐν οὐρανοῖς (Mat 18:14 BNT)
    Your Father who is in the heavens...ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν, ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (Mat 23:9 BYZ, GOC, SCR, STE)**
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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    The word (they) above is a broad stroke of the brush.....many understand how numerical value is woven through scripture and the fact that both the Hebrew Alphabet and Greek Alphabet have numerical value.
    No, I'm just saying that this person is at a higher degree than the most common folk are at, because he has been into numbers mostly all of his life while we has been into various of other things beside numbers. But I like to here what he has to say while he searching for these patterns, so then I can compare my notes along with his and to open up a new chapter that I haven't seen before. I does goes by numbers to help me to understand the scriptures a lot more better.
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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    We suspect there are more numerical relationships in these numbers. However, the Septuagint changes the numbers, adds 1466 years to the age of the earth, and does not exhibit any numerical properties in the list.
    I was into isopsephia and gematria many years ago, and followed Theomatics, but was not convinced that any patterns could mathematically be proven with a repeatable reference.

    There is one egghead out there that goes by the name of Ableever that likes to debunk Biblical mathematical structures. Perhaps you can make contact here...

    Theomatics

    I'm a little leery about the MT as it is a recension - which means that it was altered by the Jews in order to make it fit with their theological worldview..

    Such it is with YEC's who want to count the years to arrive at a date for the world and humanity...which text do you use for addition? Answer, you don't use either...

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Are you saying the quotes I placed above are not in the Bible?

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    I think this is a noble pursuit.
    However, the warning must be made that many men have been fully weighed down and distracted from the practical, by being obsessed and overcome by the theoretical. (The Holy Spirit Orbs threads as an example)

    I hope you do find someone who can sort through this information, and that the Holy Spirit can guide you into taking this seemingly random data, and turning it into something edifying.

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    Basically....I have not seen anyone on this forum who is really into the math behind scripture.

    The best that you will find here are hecklers and no-minds when it comes to your quest....don't let yourself be brought down to their level, and waste valuable time.

    I wish you the best in your search...

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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    i don't believe in bible numerology and i don't have a doctorate in anything but i like math puzzles...i worked on your problem a little bit today and i think i have a simpler solution than the one in your post...i figured out two formulas that work without any modular arithmetic...i just have to figure out appropriate constraints on the formulas so that they don't give spurious answers...i have lots of stuff to do tomorrow but i might be done by the weekend...
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    Default Re: Seeking Theoretical Mathematician for Bible Math Problem

    I just heard about this work, check it out..maybe it will help...pricey though...you can 'look inside'...

    From Abraham to Paul: A Biblical Chronology: Andrew E. Steinmann: 9780758627995: Amazon.com: Books
    Last edited by crossnote; July 24th, 2014 at 11:28 PM.

    Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
    (Psa 20:7)






    "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
    Jn 12:21


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