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S
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Sorry for muddying that, the land is a never ending promise to the Davidic Covennant is primarily during the M but in reality I think both carry through the way I understand it. I don't claim to be an expert like I said, I had to sort through all this too after three years of teaching in a Presb church and non prior, I was pretty convinced of the Amil position then I got into a teaching church and did a really deep study of the minor prophets, Revelation and Daniel and I just couldn't dismiss the M Kingdom and taking things with a literal view whenever possible. I still cringe when I hear dispensationalist.
I dont have all the answers or even the best thats why I refered you to the smart guys.
Sorry for muddying that, the land is a never ending promise to the Davidic Covennant is primarily during the M but in reality I think both carry through the way I understand it. I don't claim to be an expert like I said, I had to sort through all this too after three years of teaching in a Presb church and non prior, I was pretty convinced of the Amil position then I got into a teaching church and did a really deep study of the minor prophets, Revelation and Daniel and I just couldn't dismiss the M Kingdom and taking things with a literal view whenever possible. I still cringe when I hear dispensationalist.
I dont have all the answers or even the best thats why I refered you to the smart guys.
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
I agree and will say that the majority of the problem rests with what you said above....I myself have only heard a few men in my life say that we have replaced Israel, and I debated with like one or two with them quoting the above points that I made above...... and the rest were big name T.V. money grubbers who shall remain unnamed as they are unworthy to be mentioned anyway HAH
P.S>you welcome to the above thanks...sorry I was rude and missed it HAHA!
I agree and will say that the majority of the problem rests with what you said above....I myself have only heard a few men in my life say that we have replaced Israel, and I debated with like one or two with them quoting the above points that I made above...... and the rest were big name T.V. money grubbers who shall remain unnamed as they are unworthy to be mentioned anyway HAH
P.S>you welcome to the above thanks...sorry I was rude and missed it HAHA!
B
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
The Jews will get a second chance to accept Jesus Christ as Savior during Tribulation and those who refuse to accept Christ will receive eternal damnation before & after Jesus rules at Jerusalem for 1000 years ... separating the sheep from the goats.
The Jews will get a second chance to accept Jesus Christ as Savior during Tribulation and those who refuse to accept Christ will receive eternal damnation before & after Jesus rules at Jerusalem for 1000 years ... separating the sheep from the goats.
L
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Jews who reject Jesus have the same eternal destiny as the Gentiles who reject Jesus. Only the redeemed will live throughout eternity. (Revelation 21-22).
At the beginning of the Millennium, only the saved will enter that Kingdom. However, those who are saved after the tribulation, will enter the Kingdom in their natural bodies and will have children (Isaiah 11). Satan will be bound during the Millennium, but those born during the Millennium will have a sin nature...and there will be many who will reject Christ during this 1,000 years. After Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit after the 1,000 years is over (Revelation 20:3,7), there will be great multitude (as the sand of the sea--Revelation 20:8) who follow Satan. The heart of man remains evil and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9-10) throughout the 1,000 years...the fact that so many follow Satan in his final rebellion against God, proves this.
Jews who reject Jesus have the same eternal destiny as the Gentiles who reject Jesus. Only the redeemed will live throughout eternity. (Revelation 21-22).
At the beginning of the Millennium, only the saved will enter that Kingdom. However, those who are saved after the tribulation, will enter the Kingdom in their natural bodies and will have children (Isaiah 11). Satan will be bound during the Millennium, but those born during the Millennium will have a sin nature...and there will be many who will reject Christ during this 1,000 years. After Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit after the 1,000 years is over (Revelation 20:3,7), there will be great multitude (as the sand of the sea--Revelation 20:8) who follow Satan. The heart of man remains evil and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9-10) throughout the 1,000 years...the fact that so many follow Satan in his final rebellion against God, proves this.
S
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
All,
I am not trying to change anyones view this is a secondary issue, but it does greatly impact our presuppositions when coming to read scripture. I'd serious recommend Paul Benwares book, I am reading it now and its written so that its not painful to read, its called A Comprehensive Approach Understanding End Times Prophecy. and he spends some time on replacement theology and why he feels its wrong.
Discounted its $21.99 but I am sure you could get it cheaper. Amazon has it for 6 bucks used.
No matter what view you take you really need to evaluate both perspectives by those that hold them.
All,
I am not trying to change anyones view this is a secondary issue, but it does greatly impact our presuppositions when coming to read scripture. I'd serious recommend Paul Benwares book, I am reading it now and its written so that its not painful to read, its called A Comprehensive Approach Understanding End Times Prophecy. and he spends some time on replacement theology and why he feels its wrong.
Discounted its $21.99 but I am sure you could get it cheaper. Amazon has it for 6 bucks used.
No matter what view you take you really need to evaluate both perspectives by those that hold them.
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
You are missing Isaiah 11:11-12 where God says He will regather Israel(Jews) Judah(Jews) A SECOND time from the four corners of the world. How can anyone deny that is not happening today? You cannot explain antisemitism except that it is satanic. The whole world hates the Jews, why? There is no logical reason for it outside of satan hating them.
They have paid, and continue to pay a heavy price for rejecting their Messiah. I praise God with all my heart that they did. If not then all us Gentiles would have been lost, and our we would have died with no Savior for our sins. God has used and will continue to use the wicked to punish His chosen, but a remnant will accept their Messiah.Why would any Christian want to be numbered with the wicked who are used to afflict Israel?
You are missing Isaiah 11:11-12 where God says He will regather Israel(Jews) Judah(Jews) A SECOND time from the four corners of the world. How can anyone deny that is not happening today? You cannot explain antisemitism except that it is satanic. The whole world hates the Jews, why? There is no logical reason for it outside of satan hating them.
They have paid, and continue to pay a heavy price for rejecting their Messiah. I praise God with all my heart that they did. If not then all us Gentiles would have been lost, and our we would have died with no Savior for our sins. God has used and will continue to use the wicked to punish His chosen, but a remnant will accept their Messiah.Why would any Christian want to be numbered with the wicked who are used to afflict Israel?
H
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
This [present age, dispensation, is the Gospel to the whole world ; So, in that sense, the world wide Gospel has put aside God's work, replaced it ,, as being to the Jews only, O.T. favor was Jews mainly, but today, it is world wide, mainly Gentiles. Much of the old Disp. was worst then to days disp. , and I find the A and Post Mill. views, as sicking as the old Disp.. But I love the old Westminster Conf. of Faith. Today's. "no creed, but Christ", Reformers, leave a lot to be desired. Love Hoffco
This [present age, dispensation, is the Gospel to the whole world ; So, in that sense, the world wide Gospel has put aside God's work, replaced it ,, as being to the Jews only, O.T. favor was Jews mainly, but today, it is world wide, mainly Gentiles. Much of the old Disp. was worst then to days disp. , and I find the A and Post Mill. views, as sicking as the old Disp.. But I love the old Westminster Conf. of Faith. Today's. "no creed, but Christ", Reformers, leave a lot to be desired. Love Hoffco
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
'Until' the times of the Gentiles...began in the Babylonian captivity.
Romans 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
1.God is dealing with the Church (saved Jews and Gentiles) with specific plans for her.
2.God is also dealing with natural descendants of Israel (descendents from Abraham-Isaac-Jacob) which included the latest dispersion in 70-130AD), the present regathering, the future Tribulation (yes, where 2/3 are killed in unbelief), and the future blessings both material and spiritual through faith in her Messiah.
Dealings #1 does in no way replace dealings #2., they are seperate dealings, same Messiah. One is called the Church, the other Israel.
'Until' the times of the Gentiles...began in the Babylonian captivity.
Romans 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
1.God is dealing with the Church (saved Jews and Gentiles) with specific plans for her.
2.God is also dealing with natural descendants of Israel (descendents from Abraham-Isaac-Jacob) which included the latest dispersion in 70-130AD), the present regathering, the future Tribulation (yes, where 2/3 are killed in unbelief), and the future blessings both material and spiritual through faith in her Messiah.
Dealings #1 does in no way replace dealings #2., they are seperate dealings, same Messiah. One is called the Church, the other Israel.
U
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
The problem I see is people thinking that unsaved Isrealites hold claim to the Promises. They are the branch cut from the vine, no?
I am working through this myself, thinking about the Gaza strip issue, and whether we should be financing unbelievers going to war, regardless of nationality.
I grew up supporting national Israel, in prayer, word, and dime,
but have recently been reconsidering the last one.
The problem I see is people thinking that unsaved Isrealites hold claim to the Promises. They are the branch cut from the vine, no?
I am working through this myself, thinking about the Gaza strip issue, and whether we should be financing unbelievers going to war, regardless of nationality.
I grew up supporting national Israel, in prayer, word, and dime,
but have recently been reconsidering the last one.
U
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
I agree that it is Satanic. I also suspect that it has become a distraction to many Christians, working harder to counter antisemitism than spread the Gospel. (I speak of several people that I know personally who speak only of Israel, and little else... as if faith in Israel saves. I have no accusation of anyone on this forum doing so.)
I agree that it is Satanic. I also suspect that it has become a distraction to many Christians, working harder to counter antisemitism than spread the Gospel. (I speak of several people that I know personally who speak only of Israel, and little else... as if faith in Israel saves. I have no accusation of anyone on this forum doing so.)
U
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
I agree, but think it should be clarified.
The Church is the continuation of the vine(all those in the OT whose faith was counted as righteousness),
not a continuation of the physical nation.
We are grafted into the same salvation of the Jews, but not their societal/ceremonial laws and government.
If we believed ourselves to have become Jews, then would we not be under the Old Covenant?
So we have not become Jews, but have been brought into the same group that includes all the OT saints (the spiritual Israel, not the nation).
I agree, but think it should be clarified.
The Church is the continuation of the vine(all those in the OT whose faith was counted as righteousness),
not a continuation of the physical nation.
We are grafted into the same salvation of the Jews, but not their societal/ceremonial laws and government.
If we believed ourselves to have become Jews, then would we not be under the Old Covenant?
So we have not become Jews, but have been brought into the same group that includes all the OT saints (the spiritual Israel, not the nation).
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