In context: Romans 4:4-5

[SeaBass]

Your posts are based on the false notion that Paul limits works to only "specific" works and that salvation is through faith "and works," just not "certain" works. I understand how you try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, just like Roman Catholics and Mormons do as well. Roman Catholics call it saved through faith "infused" with works and Restorationists call it saved through faith "conjoined" with works. Either way, works become meritorious for salvation. Human PRIDE will not allow people to let go of their works and take hold of Christ through faith.



My argument is very much alive. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Are works of righteousness evil works or good works? Do evil works that unbelievers produce merit for them eternal life? NO. Do good works that believers produce merit for them eternal life? NO. ANY WORKS. Saved through faith, NOT WORKS. Paul did not say saved through faith and works, so put down your shoe horn and believe God's Word.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Noah did not earn his salvation by building the ark. Building the ark demonstrated and proved his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. It's interesting how in a different thread you avoided Hebrews 11:7 when discussing 1 Peter 3:21 to see what literally saved Noah and his family (the ark or the water), but now you mention it in an effort to support salvation by works.

His obedient work here was not the basis of his salvation. Read Genesis 15:5 - Then He (God) brought him (Abrahamm) outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."And he believed the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness."

No, and these works/acts of righteousness (NKJV; NAS) were not the means of their salvation either. There is a difference between being saved through faith and performing works/acts of righteousness by or out of faith. In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurences that it was "BY" faith, NOT faith "is" in essence all of these things. Their faith was genuine and it was proved by their actions (works). So all of these things in Hebrews 11 were done BY or out of faith, but none of these things are the essence of faith, only the evidence (fruit) of faith. That is absolutely critical to understand!



Obedient works doing/righteousness is a manifestation of faith and disobeying God/doing unrighteousness is a manifestation of unbelief.

John 6:40 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Obedient works which follow believing in Him and receiving eternal life would be of debt and not grace if they were the means of our salvation. This would mean that we are saved through faith in Christ "plus our works" which means that Christ's finished work of redemption is insufficient to save us and we must add our works to the cross in order to help Him save us. God forbid!!!

No, faith is believing and obedience which follows is WORKS. I could not grasp this truth either prior to my conversion and the blinders being removed. Attempting to be saved by obedience/works which follow faith in Christ would be works of merit if these works were the means of our salvation. You continue to confuse obey by believing (John 3:36; Romans 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow. Paul is CONTRASTING believing in Him with works in general (Romans 4:4-6). Show me where Paul says that we are "saved by works?"
.


Any work that we accomplish in an attempt to add to what Christ accomplished in order to help Him save us is trying to earn salvation, even if it's just in part. Salvation by works is not obeying God. Genuine believers obey God by practicing righteousness and not sin, yet this is not sinless perfect obedience. Unbelievers do not obey God because without faith it's impossible to please God, no matter how much so called obedience that one attempts to conjure up through the flesh (Matthew 7:22-23).

There is a difference between obeying the command of God to believe in Christ in order to receive eternal life (John 6:40; Acts 16:31) and obeying a command of God after we have been saved through believing in Him. There is a HUGE difference between what we are saved BY and what we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Any works that we try and add to salvation through faith is trying to help earn salvation. If a person is not trusting exclusively in Christ to save them, then they don't truly believe in Him, but are believing in whatever works they are doing that they believe will be the basis by which they receive eternal life. Human PRIDE keeps people from coming to faith in Christ.

Someone who attends the church of Christ once told me - "It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit." Do you agree with that? If these works help save us, then there is merit in these works. You can't have it both ways. Are you beginning to understand yet?

Those that follow the man-made teaching of faith only must purposely, make effort to NOT understand Rom 4:4.

You post Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark.

Heb 11:7 says "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith"

Noah's obedience was to the saving of his house. So Noah's obedience in preparing an ark to the saving of his house earn salvation for his house? No. His saving was by grace but that grace required him to build an ark. So Paul could NOT have been talking about obedient works in Rom 4:4.

Heb 11:32,33 "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, andof Samson, and of Jephthae; ofDavid also, and Samuel, and of the prophets. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions."

I asked you were they trying to earn their salvation by working righteousness. You said "No" and killed your argument on Rom 4:4. You try and wiggle out of that by saying "and these works/acts of righteousness (NKJV; NAS) were not the means of their salvation either"

So they could have worked unrighteousness and been saved? Hardly. Yet their working righteousness did NOT earn them salvation eliminating obedience from the "works" of Rom 4:4 that merits the reward.

So were they trying to earn salvation by working righteousness? No. Would they have been saved if they worked unrighteousness? No.




On one hand Atwood, yourself and others want to claim when one does ANY WORKS [including obedience to God], he is trying to earn salvation. Yet not obeying God is working unrighteousness/sin/disobedience.

So is man suppose to obey and earn his salvation or disobey and be lost? If obeying God is earning salvation, and God did not want man to earn salvation, then why would God give man commands to obey? By giving man commands, God would be forcing man into a position to obey Him causing man to earn salvation.

You wiggle to get around this problem by saying "There is a difference between obeying the command of God to believe in Christ in order to receive eternal life (John 6:40; Acts 16:31) and obeying a command of God after we have been saved through believing in Him. There is a HUGE difference between what we are saved BY and what we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:8-10)."


So the question remains, how much unrighteousness/sin/disobedience can a sinner do in order to be saved/become a Christian? How many of God's commands have to be disobeyed before one can become a Christian?

Eph 2:10 - is one who is ALREADY a Christian earning his salvation by doing those good works? No, for God's grace is what saves a Christian but that free grace requires the condition that Christian do good works, so a Christian doing good works is not making his reward of debt and not of grace.

Can a Christian NOT do good works and be saved? No, for God's grace conditionally requires good works.

Anyway you try and wiggle around it, obedience to God does not in any way make one reward of debt and not of grace.

Lk 17:10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do"

So when one obeys he is only do what is his duty to do. Not obeying is being derelict in one's duty leaving one lost. But even though one obeys, his obedience is not perfect making him an unprofitable servant in need of grace. Noah, Moses, Abraham, David were obedient men but none had perfect, flawless obedience for all sinned putting them in need of grace. Yet their imperfect obedience could not ever earn them salvation for they needed God's grace to cover those shortcomings.

 

[SeaBass]

In context Romans 4:4-5 is talking of only half of Salvation , Justification. 4:6 Paul is talking of IMPUTED righteousness, Justification is forgiveness IMPUTED to our account in Heaven. In CONTEXT, Paul has already talked of Righteousness imparted with the "calling" of GRACE ,POWER and LOVE, in chs.1&2. This is the part of salvation called Sanctification, making us hole in nature. Salvation has two parts SANCT. and JUSTI.. New birth in our heart and the new record in heaven. Love to all, Hoffco

Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"

When Paul says "worketh" what type of work does Paul have in mind here in verse 4?

 

[SeaBass]

Wrong try again maybe next time. What work can you do? what makes you righteous?

God makes one righteous when one obeys God's will. Those that do not obey remain unrighteous.

1 Jn 2:29 ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

No one can be born of God without doing righteousness.

1 Jn 3;10 whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God

"Faith only" is NOT doing righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

I just read this thread, and there a few so misguided souls here thinking you must add to the work of on the cross through works. I'll be praying for you, but I wish you would just stop posting and leading others astray. You are not on the narrow road my friends.

Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"

When Paul says "worketh" what type of work does Paul have in mind here in verse 4?

 

[SeaBass]

Dan's not arguing for evil works.

He's saying what the reformers said...

sola scriptura--only the Bible (properly interpreted) is the authoritative source of Truth.
sola gratia--only grace. nothing merited by the sinner. salvation is an unearned gift for Jesus' sake.
sola fide--only faith is necessary for salvation (and it's the gift of God)
solo Christo--we are saved by the Work of the Lord Jesus alone
soli Deo gloria--for God's glory alone

listen to Titus 3:5
He saved us-- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy -- through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

we are not sin proponents. good works are the fruit of salvation, never the cause of it.

Good works cannot save a lost sinner but obedience to God's will/working righteousness does save the sinner, Acts 10:35.


Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"

When Paul says "worketh" what type of work does Paul have in mind here in verse 4?

 

[RedTent]

I just read this thread, and there a few so misguided souls here thinking you must add to the work of on the cross through works. I'll be praying for you, but I wish you would just stop posting and leading others astray. You are not on the narrow road my friends.

According to scripture, you are the one who is misguided and leading others astray. You are part of the organized church's pulling away from the Lord. You cannot refuse to work for the Lord and keep the salvation He gave you freely.

If we said that we are saved through works, it would be true of us what you say, but no one is saying that, only you. But to say that works are keeping us from Christ after we are saved is to speak against Christ.

 

[Alligator]

So you don't believe that Christ gets 100% credit for our salvation or that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not on the merits of our works? If we are attempting to obey a command of Christ in order to become saved that is intended for believers who are already saved, then are we obeying Christ? NO. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and shows our motives about what we believe we must do to be saved.

Matthew 16:27 says "reward" each according to his works, not save each according to his works. Also see 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, notice work endures, receive a reward, works burned, suffer loss of reward, but he shall be saved. In Revelation 20:12, judged according to our works to determine what? Rewards and loss of rewards for believers and degree of punishment in hell for unbelievers - See Matthew 23:14 - greater condemnation. Ephesians 2:10 says created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works, right after verses 8 and 9 clearly say SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS.

I Believe salvation has two parts. The first part is Christ. He has certainly done his part and it made the ultimate sacrifice by shedding his blood on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. The second part is acceptance of that grace by us. Or to except it means to follow Christ and obey him throughout the remainder of our life. Salvation is not a spur of the moment thing. It is a process and that is why the Scripture says be thou fateful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life. A Christian can know if he is remaining faithful to Christ by his own life. See I John I. As long as we walk in the light, our salvation is secure.


I think Revelation 20:12 is pretty clear referring to our eternal destiny depending upon what we had done. (How we had lived our life. Any works we do along the way are to honor Christ, not to take away from what has done. That is a foolish notion.

 

[mailmandan]

Those that follow the man-made teaching of faith only must purposely, make effort to NOT understand Rom 4:4.

I don't teach salvation by "faith only" (empty profession of faith) - James - I teach salvation through faith, not works - Paul. Show me the works that Paul mentions "in addition" to "believes in Him" that Paul says are accounted to us for righteousness and also show me where Paul said that God imputes righteousness based on works in Romans 4:4-6. Put down your shoe horn and read it again.

You post Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark.

Amen!

Heb 11:7 says "

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith"

Out of faith Noah built the ark, but Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. Was Noah without faith until he built the ark? No. Building the ark was a demonstration of his faith.

Noah's obedience was to the saving of his house.

Saved them physically from drowning. Was Noah and his family saved eternally based on one act of obedience by Noah building an ark? His house needed no faith then, right? Because Noah saved them all eternally by one act of obedience by building the ark? No.

So Noah's obedience in preparing an ark to the saving of his house earn salvation for his house?

His eternal salvation was not based on building an ark and neither was the eternal salvation of his house either. Salvation has always been through FAITH. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of salvation.

No. His saving was by grace but that grace required him to build an ark.

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace (Romans 11:6). His physical saving and the physical preservation of his house required Noah to build an ark. If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith and he and his house would have drown.

So Paul could NOT have been talking about obedient works in Rom 4:4.

Paul certainly was. Paul said not by works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works. Obedient works are still WORKS. You are making the same argument that Roman Catholics and Mormons make about Romans 4:4 in an effort to "get around" the truth (wiggle, wiggle) and support your works based false gospel.

Heb 11:32,33 "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, andof Samson, and of Jephthae; ofDavid also, and Samuel, and of the prophets. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions."

I asked you were they trying to earn their salvation by working righteousness. You said "No" and killed your argument on Rom 4:4.

How do people who are already saved through faith earn their salvation by working righteousness? They don't. Genuine believers are not looking to be saved by works, only self righteous unbelievers who are deceived into thinking they are believers. Where did Paul say that we are saved by works of righteousness? To the contrary, he said just the opposite in Titus 3:5. It's you who is trying to wiggle around the truth. How long will you refuse to repent and believe the gospel?

You try and wiggle out of that by saying "

and these works/acts of righteousness (NKJV; NAS) were not the means of their salvation either"

Works of righteousness are not the means of our salvation. No wiggling, it is what it is (Titus 3:5). Please explain to me how unrighteous people perform genuine works of righteousness? Does a bad tree produce good fruit?

So they could have worked unrighteousness and been saved? Hardly. Yet their working righteousness did NOT earn them salvation eliminating obedience from the "works" of Rom 4:4 that merits the reward.

Working unrighteousness is the fruit of unbelief, not saved. You continue to confuse the root of salvation with the fruit. If works of righteousness were the basis by which we received eternal salvation then we would earn salvation at least in part. What works of obedience does Paul add to "believing in Him" in Romans 4:4? He doesn't. You do! Eternal life/Salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8), not a reward. A reward is something that you work for and earn.

So were they trying to earn salvation by working righteousness? No. Would they have been saved if they worked unrighteousness? No.

Here is your confusion. They did not earn salvation by working righteousness because working righteousness is not the means of our salvation (Titus 3:5), but it is the fruit of faith. Working unrighteousness is the fruit of unbelief. Quit trying to earn your way to heaven by works and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

On one hand Atwood, yourself and others want to claim when one does ANY WORKS [including obedience to God], he is trying to earn salvation. Yet not obeying God is working unrighteousness/sin/disobedience.

Setting out to attain salvation based on works is not obeying God and is trying to earn salvation. Just look at these many people in Matthew 7:22. What were they trusting in for salvation? Their WORKS. What did Jesus tell them in vs. 23? I NEVER knew you! Salvation is a gift that is received by grace through faith, not works. When will you BELIEVE?

So is man suppose to obey and earn his salvation or disobey and be lost?

We obey unto salvation by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Refusing to believe the gospel is to disobey the gospel and be lost (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

If obeying God is earning salvation, and God did not want man to earn salvation, then why would God give man commands to obey?

Trying to earn salvation by works is not obeying God. Why wouldn't God give us commands to obey after we have been saved through faith? There is work to be done for the kingdom out of gratitude and love for the Lord BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved. Is your only motivation to do anything is because you believe it will save you? If it can't save you then why do it at all? Do you only help people out because you expect something in return? Every single command in the Bible is a prerequisite for salvation? Have you lived a sinless, without fault of defect, flawless perfect life?

By giving man commands, God would be forcing man into a position to obey Him causing man to earn salvation.

There is a difference between the command to believe and be saved and multiple commands for us after we have been saved through faith. Are we saved through faith or imperfect obedience?

You wiggle to get around this problem by saying

I only see a problem with your biased theology.

"

There is a difference between obeying the command of God to believe in Christ in order to receive eternal life (John 6:40; Acts 16:31) and obeying a command of God after we have been saved through believing in Him. There is a HUGE difference between what we are saved BY and what we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:8-10)."

Amen! Let me guess. The truth here went right over your head?

So the question remains, how much unrighteousness/sin/disobedience can a sinner do in order to be saved/become a Christian? How many of God's commands have to be disobeyed before one can become a Christian?

*Problem - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23); For the wages of sin is death, *solution - but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Not through works. So you are trying to draw a line in the sand and figure out how much obedience it takes to save you and how much disobedience it takes you from not getting saved. See your confusion? How could you ever know for sure (1 John 5:13) that you were saved based on that logic. You couldn't.

Eph 2:10 - is one who is ALREADY a Christian earning his salvation by doing those good works? No, for God's grace is what saves a Christian but that free grace requires the condition that Christian do good works,

Contradiction. God's grace is what saves a Christian but grace requires the condition to do good works? Condition for what? To become saved by good works? No! We are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. See how you continually depend on works for salvation? You just can't let go of works and take hold of Christ through faith.

so a Christian doing good works is not making his reward of debt and not of grace.

It makes his salvation of debt, and not of grace, if these works are the means of salvation. Grace through faith, not works.

Can a Christian NOT do good works and be saved? No, for God's grace conditionally requires good works.

That is an oxymoron. All Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. There is no such thing as a genuine Christian who does absolutely no good works. That's a dead faith, not a living faith that has been made alive in Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-9). And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace.. (Romans 11:6). Crystal clear.

Salvation by grace through faith and salvation by works are mutually exclusive.

Anyway you try and wiggle around it, obedience to God does not in any way make one reward of debt and not of grace.

It's you who is doing all the wiggling. Obedience to God after we have been saved through faith is WORKS and makes salvation of debt and not of grace. If works are the basis of salvation then there is merit in these works. You can't have it both ways!

Lk 17:10 "

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do"

The point of this is that a servant should expect no special reward for doing what was his duty in the first place, not that we are saved by unmerited works after faith.

So when one obeys he is only do what is his duty to do.

BECAUSE he is saved, not to become saved.

Not obeying is being derelict in one's duty leaving one lost.

Obedience is a manifestation of belief and disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. Salvation by works is disobedience.

But even though one obeys, his obedience is not perfect making him an unprofitable servant in need of grace. Noah, Moses, Abraham, David were obedient men but none had perfect, flawless obedience for all sinned putting them in need of grace. Yet their imperfect obedience could not ever earn them salvation for they needed God's grace to cover those shortcomings.

None of us are sinless and perfect, so our obedience is not without fault or defect, flawless. Works do not earn salvation and they are not the means of our salvation. Works are the fruit, but never the root of salvation. We all need God's grace to save us. We need a Savior and He is Jesus Christ. Praise God!

 

[Hoffco]

I wish people would just say what Jesus said, " Those who have done the GOOD DEEDScome to a resurrection of life, but those who do evil deeds come to a res. of condemnation". Jh. 5:29

 

[Hoffco]

The WHOLE BIBLE tells us THAT good words will be rewarded with eternal life. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[kennethcadwell]

Revelation 20:11-15

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Some forget this chapter in Revelations too, or they try and say it is just nonbelievers being judged here.

If that is the case of just nonbelievers here then the Book of Life would not have been opened as it clearly shows in vs.12.

 

[Hoffco]

If a person wants to obey God , and you tell them that their good works are "disobedience" , you say a lie and discourage them. Their goods works ,by them selves, will not save them, but nor will they be saved without their good works. when one says the try their best they can to obey, I praise them for being a good member of society, and encourage them to trust in Jesus and do good works also, because they need both to be saved. love Hoffco

 

[mailmandan]

I Believe salvation has two parts. The first part is Christ. He has certainly done his part and it made the ultimate sacrifice by shedding his blood on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. The second part is acceptance of that grace by us.

Grace is God's part and faith is our part. By grace through faith.

Or to except it means to follow Christ and obey him throughout the remainder of our life.

This is what Christians do AFTER they HAVE BEEN saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Following Christ and obeying Him throughout the remainder of our life is what we are saved FOR. Believers don't follow Christ and obey Him throughout the remainder of their life in order to become saved but BECAUSE they are saved.

Salvation is not a spur of the moment thing.

Salvation is a past event with present results. Why do you think that Paul said we HAVE BEEN saved through faith? (Ephesians 2:8). That is not a process. It's a present reality.

It is a process

Sanctification is a process, not Justification. Therefore, HAVING BEEN justified by faith, we HAVE peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).

and that is why the Scripture says be thou fateful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life.

As I already explained, if Revelation 2:10 teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Christ for salvation, then just how faithful would you have to be? That is vague and could include any number of good works. This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there. The very next verse says, "He who OVERCOMES shall not be hurt by the second death." *1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God OVERCOMES the world. And this is the victory that OVERCOMES the world---OUR FAITH. We are clearly saved through FAITH, not faith plus being faithful enough. Having faith to the end is being faithful. Faith that endures to the end is rooted in Christ and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root.

A Christian can know if he is remaining faithful to Christ by his own life. See I John I. As long as we walk in the light, our salvation is secure.

Where does John say that Christians don't walk in the light? Are Christians in the light or in darkness? You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth (See 1 John 3:10; 2:11). But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who aresanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

I think Revelation 20:12 is pretty clear referring to our eternal destiny depending upon what we had done. (How we had lived our life. Any works we do along the way are to honor Christ, not to take away from what has done. That is a foolish notion.

Upon what we have done? That is WORKS. See how you continually base salvation on works? Read Revelation 2:11 along with 1 John 5:4. How do we overcome? By works or through our faith? 1 John 4:4 - You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. Genuine good works glorify God, but they do not earn our salvation and are not the means of our salvation. If salvation is based on our works, then it does take away from what Christ has done because we then have to help Him save us and that makes Him an insufficient Savior. God forbid! What is foolish is REFUSING to BELIEVE the gospel.

 

[Hoffco]

To kennethcadwell, you are reading too much into Rev.20:11-15. It can be added to this passage that the Sheep and goats will be separated at that time. but the righteous were judge 1,000 yrs before this time. The book of life was only opened to assure that their names , the goats name are not there. The Church has been ruling with Christ on earth for 1,ooo yrs already, and are then ushered into the new Jerusalem on the new earth, after, the wicked dead are raised and thrown into the lake of fire, after the 1,000 yrs. Love Hoffco

 

[kennethcadwell]

2 Timothy 4:2-8

Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.


Works by themselves do not save, not does faith by itself save.
( Examples: If one believes but does not have good works that follow are not truly saved, as well if one lives nothing but a good life doing good things for others but do not believe in Jesus are not saved either. )

James 2:14-26
[h=3][SUP] [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, [SUP] [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.[/h]

 

[mailmandan]

Revelation 20:11-15

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Some forget this chapter in Revelations too, or they try and say it is just nonbelievers being judged here.

If that is the case of just nonbelievers here then the Book of Life would not have been opened as it clearly shows in vs.12.

The question is, "judged according to their works to determine what?" If they did enough works to merit salvation? NO. What does 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 say about the works of believers? What do these works determine? Rewards or loss of rewards or salvation or loss of salvation? What about the works of unbelievers? What will they determine? Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

 

[kennethcadwell]

To kennethcadwell, you are reading too much into Rev.20:11-15. It can be added to this passage that the Sheep and goats will be separated at that time. but the righteous were judge 1,000 yrs before this time. The book of life was only opened to assure that their names , the goats name are not there. The Church has been ruling with Christ on earth for 1,ooo yrs already, and are then ushered into the new Jerusalem on the new earth, after, the wicked dead are raised and thrown into the lake of fire, after the 1,000 yrs. Love Hoffco

That is by mans understanding. Jesus would not have to open the book of life to reassure himself their names aren't there, He would already know. We are told that is where we want our names written, in the book of life. If the ones who's names are written in the book of life are already judged, then He would not need to reopen the book again because the goats are already cast away. Nobody that is in the goat classification gets salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

I wish people would just say what Jesus said, " Those who have done the GOOD DEEDScome to a resurrection of life, but those who do evil deeds come to a res. of condemnation". Jh. 5:29

And who does these good deeds? The saved or the lost? Who does these evil deeds? The saved or the lost? Jesus is giving a description of believers and unbelievers and is not teaching salvation by works.

Notice in Romans 2:7 - patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. Good deeds are produced out of faith, thus "everyone who does good." Deeds produced without faith are tainted with sin, thus "everyone who does evil." Without faith it is impossible to please God. Good works are involved as the FRUIT, but not the root of salvation. Many people have a difficult time making this balance.

 

[Delivery]

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.


So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

The works here in this passage is about working for your salvation so that your salvation becomes a debt owed to you by God for all the good works you do. But Paul is saying that's not what you do. You cannot earn your salvation by any amount of works. Salvation is by Grace which means a free gift of God. Paul is saying that Salvation can never be by both grace and works. As he said in Romans 11:6:

11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Since he emphasizes that it's by grace then that means there can be no works involved at all. So since Salvation is by Grace through Faith as the scriptures clearly state then we know that there can never be an ounce of work involved. That's what Paul is saying here.

4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In this verse he is saying that since you can't work for your salvation, but simply believe in Jesus for your Salvation
you are justified before God without having to do any work to earn it, and righteousness is automatically imputed upon you by Faith. You have become righteous Faith without being obedient to the rules and the law. Har-har.

Your twisting and perverting of the scriptures to make them mean exactly the opposite of what the original intent and meaning was is just going to land you in Hell instead of Heaven.

The act of believing in Jesus is not works.

6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In this verse Jesus was not saying that belief is a work. He was saying that you don't have to do a lot of works to be saves, you only have to believe in Him. The act of believing in Jesus and confessing Him as your Lord and Savior is not works, it's simply reaching out you hand of faith to receive the free gift of eternal life that He has for you. The act of being obedient to the law and the rules in order to earn or retain your salvation is works.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The question is, "judged according to their works to determine what?" If they did enough works to merit salvation? NO. What does 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 say about the works of believers? What do these works determine? Rewards or loss of rewards or salvation or loss of salvation? What about the works of unbelievers? What will they determine? Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

Yes you are right here, believers do get judged and given rewards by the works they did.

But you can not say you are a believer, and produce no good works or only bad works. Those who think they can sit back and produce no good works at all will be the ones the bible says are gnashing at the teeth and pleading as to why they are cast out.

And yes nonbelievers or walkers of evil/darkness will be judged on their works to determine how long they burn in pit. For not all will burn for eternity.