In context: Romans 4:4-5

[SeaBass]

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.


So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

 

[SeaBass]

In the context of Rom 4:4 the one who "worketh" is the one is trying to keep God's law flawlessly, perfectly, he is an obedient man in trying to gain acceptance with God.

This means the "non-worker", the one who has no works is being totally, entirely, completely disobedient to God, a law-breaker, one who can never gain acceptance with God, never be justified in his "non-works".

 

[dcontroversal]

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.


So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

What you fail to understand through all the scripture that you twist to teach your works for salvation is the simple truth that the faith of JESUS has nothing to do with works by a man or woman seeking eternal security......You one little error will take you straight to the pit dude and you need to re-evaluate your error of calling faith a work...IT IS A SPIRITUAL GIFT THAT CANNOT BE WORKED FOR and NO matter how many times you spread that LIE it will not change the facts!

 

[SeaBass]

What you fail to understand through all the scripture that you twist to teach your works for salvation is the simple truth that the faith of JESUS has nothing to do with works by a man or woman seeking eternal security......You one little error will take you straight to the pit dude and you need to re-evaluate your error of calling faith a work...IT IS A SPIRITUAL GIFT THAT CANNOT BE WORKED FOR and NO matter how many times you spread that LIE it will not change the facts!

....and this refutes what I post about Rom 4:4,5 in what way?

Eternal security can never be found for it does not exist.
1 Jn 1:7 those that walk in the light then Christ's blood washes away ALL sins keeping one out of the "pit"
Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith is not a gift God randomly gives to some and withholds from others.

 

[4enlightment]

Eve didn't had trusted what God had told them about the tree because she didn't knew whom God was; we have to build up our trust in God which takes works, but works doesn't justifies us, but trust alone justifies us.

 

[SeaBass]

Eve didn't had trusted what God had told them about the tree because she didn't knew whom God was; we have to build up our trust in God which takes works, but works doesn't justifies us, but trust alone justifies us.

James "by works a man is justified"

 

[dcontroversal]

....and this refutes what I post about Rom 4:4,5 in what way?

Eternal security can never be found for it does not exist.
1 Jn 1:7 those that walk in the light then Christ's blood washes away ALL sins keeping one out of the "pit"
Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith is not a gift God randomly gives to some and withholds from others.

Again, your works for salvation taints the truth and blinds you to the truth...God dealt to ever man A MEASURE of FAITH.....GOD did it, NOT you or me......Until you acknowledge the truth of Jesus and HIS faith and FAITH alone that saves, secures and eternally seals you will be blind to the SIMPLE truths that are found in Christ and lost in your sins and belief in your works and abilities!

 

[SeaBass]

Again, your works for salvation taints the truth and blinds you to the truth...God dealt to ever man A MEASURE of FAITH.....GOD did it, NOT you or me......Until you acknowledge the truth of Jesus and HIS faith and FAITH alone that saves, secures and eternally seals you will be blind to the SIMPLE truths that are found in Christ and lost in your sins and belief in your works and abilities!

Anyone can easily make claims and state their bias as you do here. Provide a post that actually refutes my OP.

 

[dcontroversal]

Anyone can easily make claims and state their bias as you do here. Provide a post that actually refutes my OP.

The very scripture you twist proves the point......Faith is a spiritual Gift......you reject this and make it a work by twisting what Jesus said....

Faith of God
Faith Of Christ
God calls
God convicts
God saves
God seals
Jesus paid the price
it is a gift
NOT OF WORKS

The bible teaches the above and every place you find these things you twist them to your own demise.......

 

[SeaBass]

The very scripture you twist proves the point......Faith is a spiritual Gift......you reject this and make it a work by twisting what Jesus said....

Faith of God
Faith Of Christ
God calls
God convicts
God saves
God seals
Jesus paid the price
it is a gift
NOT OF WORKS

The bible teaches the above and every place you find these things you twist them to your own demise.......

Prove that I twisted Rom 4:4,5. In Rom 4:5 Paul said "worketh not".
Prove that "worketh not" eliminates all works per the context of this verse.


The bible also says:

save yourselves
save thyself
work out your own salvation
by works a man is justified
obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then being freed from sin
obedience unto righteousness
seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth
Christ saves those that obey
God has vengeance upon those that obey not
obedience to the faith
if ye love me keep my commandments
he that doeth the will of the Father shall enter the kingdom
he that doeth truth cometh to the light

 

[mailmandan]

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

As demonstrated by you.

If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

Any works which follow faith would be works of merit if they were the means of our salvation. Either we have perfectly obeyed the law and we earned our way to heaven or else we believe in the One who did perfectly obey it, died for our sins and rose from the dead to provide for us eternal life. You are trying to save yourself through imperfect obedience. Obeying the commandments of God after we have been saved through faith is WORKS. You still don't know the difference between faith and works. Romans 4:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. Simply BELIEVES. Not believes in works, but believes in Christ.

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

Compare Romans 4:2 - "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God." (NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS) 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness" with James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the alter?" Paul and James do not contradict each other. They are just explaining saving faith from two different perspectives. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:21 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove or show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. *Perfect Harmony*

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

This is the same futile argument that Roman Catholics and Mormons make in an effort to "get around" saved through faith, NOT WORKS. In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In the Bible the word "justified" is often used in the "legal" (judicial) sense. Paul often uses the word "justified" in this "legal" sense (Romans 3:24,28; 5:1; 5:9; 8:30 etc..). The word justified is also used in a "declarative sense." James has this aspect of justification in mind. As we have seen, his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is why James says I will SHOW you my faith by my works.

In Luke 7:29, God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist. This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right." The ESV reads, "they declared God just. This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 - "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Are you paying close attention?

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies

Legal sense, accounted as righteous.

James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Declarative sense, shown to be righteous. Good works bear out the justification that comes by faith. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.

Believing is clearly not a work that merits our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Repenting is not a work that merits our salvation either. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe (trust in Christ's finished work of redemption) to save us. Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the object of our complete trust in receiving salvation. If good works that follow faith were the means of our salvation, then that would add merit on our part to receiving salvation because then we would be saved through faith based on Christ's finished work of redemption "plus our works". Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete. NO supplements needed!

So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions.

Actually you are creating a whole host of contradictions. Paul said not by works/not by works of righteousness which we have done/not according to our works. That covers ALL good works in general, even the one's that you are trying to save yourself by. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of righteousness" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that we do as Christians which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? The law is not simply limited to circumcision and such.

They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified

Actually you created the contradiction by failing to understand the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 4:2-6). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove or show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24).

and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

I already explained this to you in a different thread, but I see that you are still reading these verses through the lens of works salvation. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine".

 

[dcontroversal]

Prove that I twisted Rom 4:4,5. In Rom 4:5 Paul said "worketh not".
Prove that "worketh not" eliminates all works per the context of this verse.


The bible also says:

save yourselves
save thyself
work out your own salvation
by works a man is justified
obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then being freed from sin
obedience unto righteousness
seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth
Christ saves those that obey
God has vengeance upon those that obey not
obedience to the faith
if ye love me keep my commandments
he that doeth the will of the Father shall enter the kingdom
he that doeth truth cometh to the light

yeah no doubt, all taken out of context by you to teach heresy....save does not necessarily mean soul salvation and the context of the verses you yank it out of reject and teach against what you attempt to twist it to say.

A man is justified in his faith BEFORE OTHER MEN as James teaches, yet you yank out of context to spin your heresy
Man justified before God by the FAITH of Christ FAITH without WORKS

Broad is the way to hell and within the ranks of so called Christianity the majority, just like the white washed coffins of Jesus' day, believed in their own righteous works to gain/keep/facilitate their own salvation.....BLIND leaders of the blind making lost men two fold the children of hell as well as themselves.....false prophets, spewing out heresy and saying Jesus is not good enough...I have to save MYSELF as Jesus is too weak to save me or keep me saved....I know you don't worship the God of the Bible and you know how I know.......?

My God is not weak and My God doesn't need my help to save me or keep me saved......

By your very testimony and belief you openly admit that you are lost and still in your sins as you trust yourself and your abilities over and above the perfect FAITH OF JESUS...

NO WORKS will ever save a man as there is NONE good, no not ONE and for those who truly trust Jesus it is JESUS dia the HOLY SPIRIT and THE WORD that is doing the works not YOU

 

[SeaBass]

yeah no doubt, all taken out of context by you to teach heresy....save does not necessarily mean soul salvation and the context of the verses you yank it out of reject and teach against what you attempt to twist it to say.

A man is justified in his faith BEFORE OTHER MEN as James teaches, yet you yank out of context to spin your heresy
Man justified before God by the FAITH of Christ FAITH without WORKS

Broad is the way to hell and within the ranks of so called Christianity the majority, just like the white washed coffins of Jesus' day, believed in their own righteous works to gain/keep/facilitate their own salvation.....BLIND leaders of the blind making lost men two fold the children of hell as well as themselves.....false prophets, spewing out heresy and saying Jesus is not good enough...I have to save MYSELF as Jesus is too weak to save me or keep me saved....I know you don't worship the God of the Bible and you know how I know.......?

My God is not weak and My God doesn't need my help to save me or keep me saved......

By your very testimony and belief you openly admit that you are lost and still in your sins as you trust yourself and your abilities over and above the perfect FAITH OF JESUS...

NO WORKS will ever save a man as there is NONE good, no not ONE and for those who truly trust Jesus it is JESUS dia the HOLY SPIRIT and THE WORD that is doing the works not YOU

None taken OT of context no more than any of yours were taken out of context, they simple refute you personal bias as to how YOU think man should be saved.

It did not matter if Abrahams' faith was seen of other men. If that were the case then why did God have Abraham go out into the wilderness to sacrifice Issac and not in a public arena so all could see? God saw Abraham's obedience and that is all that mattered for Abraham to be justified.

Sticking with the context of Rom 4:4,5:

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt

Why type of work does Paul have here under consideration in Rom 4:4?

 

[SeaBass]

As demonstrated by you.

Any works which follow faith would be works of merit if they were the means of our salvation. Either we have perfectly obeyed the law and we earned our way to heaven or else we believe in the One who did perfectly obey it, died for our sins and rose from the dead to provide for us eternal life. You are trying to save yourself through imperfect obedience. Obeying the commandments of God after we have been saved through faith is WORKS. You still don't know the difference between faith and works. Romans 4:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. Simply BELIEVES. Not believes in works, but believes in Christ.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

Compare Romans 4:2 - "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God." (NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS) 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness" with James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the alter?" Paul and James do not contradict each other. They are just explaining saving faith from two different perspectives. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:21 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove or show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. *Perfect Harmony*

This is the same futile argument that Roman Catholics and Mormons make in an effort to "get around" saved through faith, NOT WORKS. In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In the Bible the word "justified" is often used in the "legal" (judicial) sense. Paul often uses the word "justified" in this "legal" sense (Romans 3:24,28; 5:1; 5:9; 8:30 etc..). The word justified is also used in a "declarative sense." James has this aspect of justification in mind. As we have seen, his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is why James says I will SHOW you my faith by my works.

In Luke 7:29, God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist. This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right." The ESV reads, "they declared God just. This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 - "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Are you paying close attention?



Legal sense, accounted as righteous.



Declarative sense, shown to be righteous. Good works bear out the justification that comes by faith. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*



Believing is clearly not a work that merits our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Repenting is not a work that merits our salvation either. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe (trust in Christ's finished work of redemption) to save us. Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the object of our complete trust in receiving salvation. If good works that follow faith were the means of our salvation, then that would add merit on our part to receiving salvation because then we would be saved through faith based on Christ's finished work of redemption "plus our works". Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete. NO supplements needed!

Actually you are creating a whole host of contradictions. Paul said not by works/not by works of righteousness which we have done/not according to our works. That covers ALL good works in general, even the one's that you are trying to save yourself by. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of righteousness" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that we do as Christians which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? The law is not simply limited to circumcision and such.

Actually you created the contradiction by failing to understand the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 4:2-6). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove or show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24).


I already explained this to you in a different thread, but I see that you are still reading these verses through the lens of works salvation. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine".

Too many errors in your post for me to touch on every one.

Rom 4:4,5 step by step, one verse, one issue at a time.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt

Why type of work does Paul have here under consideration in Rom 4:4?

 

[gzusfrk]

In the parable of the sower, where the Word is the seed, the seed either dies, or it produces, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty, this is a growth or a work, if your at a zero then this would tell me there was no growth or works, the Word did not take root. It would not be possible to have Jesus in your heart and not do good things.

 

[gzusfrk]

Do not boast in your good works or good deeds for it is not you that these good deeds happen, it is Christ in you that has caused the growth or work.

 

[mailmandan]

Too many errors in your post for me to touch on every one.

Rom 4:4,5 step by step, one verse, one issue at a time.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt

Why type of work does Paul have here under consideration in Rom 4:4?

Any works that you add to salvation through faith in an attempt to help Jesus save you. It's either by grace through faith or by works. Either we are saved by believing or else we are saved by working. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Was that not clear enough for you? So which works have you accomplished that you are attempting to add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?

 

[mailmandan]

In the parable of the sower, where the Word is the seed, the seed either dies, or it produces, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty, this is a growth or a work, if your at a zero then this would tell me there was no growth or works, the Word did not take root. It would not be possible to have Jesus in your heart and not do good things.

Amen! Saving faith is rooted in Christ and produces fruit and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root and produces no fruit. Even though genuine believers are fruitful, not all are equally fruitful (some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty).

 

[Kerry]

To the OP, Paul is illustrating that faith in the cross is the only means to righteousness and the works that we do are not righteous. However, if our faith is in the cross then we will do the works of God.

 

[SeaBass]

Any works that you add to salvation through faith in an attempt to help Jesus save you. It's either by grace through faith or by works. Either we are saved by believing or else we are saved by working. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Was that not clear enough for you? So which works have you accomplished that you are attempting to add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?

Just "any works" does not make ones reward not of grace but of debt.

Abraham had obedient works, yet he sinned so he was need of grace therefore his reward could not be of debt. So that would eliminate obedience to God from the "worketh" of verse 4.

Obviously unrighteous works, sin does not get one the reward at all.

If one could keep God's law flawlessly, perfectly then his reward would be of debt and not of grace. A flawless. sinless person is not in need of grace. So Paul has works of merit in mind in verse 4 where the reward is earned and not of grace.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that does works of merit, is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that does no works of merit, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now that Paul has eliminated works of merit NOT obedience, Paul CONTRASTS the worker of merits to him that believeth.

So the issue now is what does the bible say about "belief".

---In Rom 4:5 Paul did NOT say "beleiveth only'. So that eliminates that false man-made teaching.

---Belief is something commanded as the jailer was commanded to believe, Acts 16. The command implies believing is omething man is capable of doing and has a responsibility to do.

---Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. Here "believeth" is contrasted to "obeyeth not" so believing is a obedience.

Same in Acts 14:1 where "believed" in verse 1 is contrasted to "disobedience" of verse 2.

In Heb 3:17,18 "disobedience" in v17 is equated to "unbelief" in verse 19.

So the biblical idea of belief is DOING what the Lord has said, Lk 6:46, for not doing what the Lord said is disobedience/unbelief.

---Believing saves as does repentance, confession and baptism so believe includes obedience in repenting confessing and baptism.

Comparing Acts 2:41 with verse 44, "believed" in verse 44 includes obedience in baptism of verse 41.


It is very clear that belief is obedience.

Rom 4:5 But to him that does not do works of merit, but obeys him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


So Paul is contrasting works of merit to obedience in the context of Rom 4:5.



Finally, the worker of merit is an obedient man trying to keep God's law flawlessly to merit salvation. This worker of merit is contrasted to the obedient man who is faithful to God but occasionally sins and therefore is in need of grace.

So who then is the "non-worker", the faith only follower? He is the one that is disobedient to God, the law-breaker.