Foreknowledge: Foreordination is "According to Foreknowledge"

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#1
In another thread the issue of foreknowledge came up as God's choosing or foreordination is said in scripture to be kata (according to) foreknowledge.

The two Greek words are prognōosis and progi(g)nōskō.
(In a classical Greek lexicon there will be the 2nd gamma [g], but not in a NT lexicon.

Prognōsis occurs twice:

acts 2:23
Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay.

1 Pet 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Progi(g)nōskō occurs a few times:

Acts 26:5
My manner of life then from my youth up, which was from the beginning among mine own nation and at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; having previously known me from the first, if they be willing to testify, that after the straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

[It is the person Paul was was known, yet things about Paul are evidently included in the knowing, namely that he was a Pharisee.]

2 Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand [προγινώσκοντες], beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.

Rom 8:28
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained . . . .

Rom 11:2
God did not cast off his people [Israel] whom he foreknew.

1 pet 1:20
Christ: who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of the times for your sake, who through him are believers in God,

The BDAG Lexicon is the standard NT Greek Lexicon. For some reason (influence of Lutheranism?) BDAG claims that foreknowledge encroaches on the semantic domain of election (God's sovereign choosing). To me this encroachment seems unlikely from the general use of the terms and also by reducing election according to foreknowledge to a tautology: "elect according to election." [BDAG is abbridged & spaced for clarity]

προγινώσκω
1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of)
τί someth. affliction Hermas Similitudes 7:5.
Abs.
προγινώσκοντες since you know this (i.e. what the context makes clear) in advance 2 Pt 3:17.

Of God πάντα Hermas Mandates 4, 3, 4.

—Closely connected is the idea of choice that suggests foreknowledge
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29. τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2

Pass. of Christ προεγνωσμένος πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου 1 Pt 1:20.

Know from time past προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν Ac 26:5

πρόγνωσις
1. foreknowledge πρ. λαμβάνειν τελείαν receive complete foreknowledge 1 Clement 44:2.

2. predetermination, of God’s omniscient wisdom and intention (LXX Judith 9:6)
w. βουλή Ac 2:23.
κατὰ πρόγνωσιν θεοῦ πατρός destined by God the Father (NRSV) 1 Pt 1:2

Since God is omniscient, included in his objective foreknowledge must be everything, including every detail about everyone, their temperaments, their attitudes, their natures, their attributes, their decisions, and whether or not they will believe in the Lord Jesus as Savior.

I was taught by an excellent Bible teacher that foreknow/foreknowledge is fore-entering into an intimate relationship with. And the proof text was from Amos where a Hebrew term (not having "fore-") on it was used to illustrate how "know" has a special use for intimate relationship (Israel is the only nation that God knew.)

But can one limit foreknowledge to a special meaning of knowledge (without "fore-")? Is it not true that His foreknowledge must include absolutely all there is to know about persons (& everything else!) Certainly part of God's foreknowledge must include the knowledge that persons will believe or not believe (not that the text specifies belief or anything in particular that was in the relevant knowledge).

Do you exclude the rest of God's omniscience from the foreknowledge (according to which God chose)?

It is obvious that had the Lord wished to make it clear with the idea of "fore-loved," He could have said precisely that (to wit, "chosen according to the love which the Lord had for certain persons in eternity past). But by saying that, it is hard to make choosing come logically after the loving, if the special love be confined to a certain group -- that would make election prior to the loving -- so it seems to me. So it looks like if one interprets foreknowledge as knowledge in the intimate sense of know:, then a sort of nonsense seems to result:
choosing based on fore-intimacy which was based on choosing!

While no text says that it was "a man's belief in Christ which was foreknown," some (like Thiessen's Systematic Theology (Thiessen believing in eternal security, BTW) explain that it was God's foreknowledge of man's belief in Christ which resulted in the election/choosing/foreordaining/predestination of the Christian.

I am mulling this over.

I put a link below to a good article on this:

http://chafer.nextmeta.com/files/v9n1_3the_meaning_of_proginwskw.pdf
 
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Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
337
83
#2
Know from time past προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν Ac 26:5

That is the key in understanding why God predestined some souls. God knew all souls prior to assigning them to flesh bodies (pre-Genesis). Some rebelled against God (a third - Revelation 12:4)), some were neutral, and some were faithful. God predestined a few for a specific purpose because he knew them before they were born and He could count on them to keep the faith in the flesh.

"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Romans 9:13). This was not God discriminating against Esau, but his hate was based on foreknowledge of Esau. God told Jeremiah: 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"
(Jeremiah 1:5).

This is not to say that all are pre-judged, we are tested because God does not know our choices. God is omniscient and omnipotent, but our free-will is not predetermined. jmo
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#3

That is the key in understanding why God predestined some souls. God knew all souls prior to assigning them to flesh bodies (pre-Genesis). Some rebelled against God (a third - Revelation 12:4)), some were neutral, and some were faithful. God predestined a few for a specific purpose because he knew them before they were born and He could count on them to keep the faith in the flesh.

Strange Incense Dan.
How did "soul" get into this? Why do you import the word "soul"?
Where is any assignment of souls to flesh bodies in scripture?
Rev 12:14 does not prove any of those claims. I think you should give proof or retract.


"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Romans 9:13). This was not God discriminating against Esau, but his hate was based on foreknowledge of Esau. God told Jeremiah: 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"
(Jeremiah 1:5).

Your Jeremiah verse is interesting. I can see someone arguing from it that this knowledge was a personal relationship, if a personal relationship is possible with someone who does not yet exist. It also doesn't say anything about Esau nor about a person God hates. You seem to be postulating that if God set someone apart for favorable treatment based on foreknowledge, then it is reasonable to suppose (tho it be supposition) that he would hate someone based on foreknowledge. I think that is a worthy hypothesis; I actually never thought of that, and thank you for the suggestion. Yet as I have read Rom 9, I don't see there anything based on foreknowledge, but upon God's sovereign power as a potter over clay.

This is not to say that all are pre-judged, we are tested because God does not know [sic! Vot der dumboozle!] our choices. God is omniscient and omnipotent, but our free-will is not predetermined.
It is observed that you give not Bible proof for those claims!
Now Dan, having come up with an interesting hypothesis on Esau, you seem to contradict it with your last preposterous comment. If God is omniscient, then he must know our choices. And He is omniscient. Do I need quote scripture for such a basic truth? And it is also seems inconsistent with the possibility of prophecy.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#4
The KEY to understanding the Bible is the BIBLE, not the lexicon.! Just READ the context, it is VERY clear, God chose to LOVE/HATE, based on Himself, not the person's actions. God loved/hated, "before they did...". Let God be true and every man liar! Love Hoffco
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#5
Question:
If God is eternal, isn't speaking in terms of knowing 'before' or 'after' loving a bit strange?
I mean, eternal is eternal, how can one come before/after the other in an eternal mind?
 
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tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,301
16,296
113
69
Tennessee
#6
In another thread the issue of foreknowledge came up as God's choosing or foreordination is said in scripture to be kata (according to) foreknowledge.

The two Greek words are prognōosis and progi(g)nōskō.
(In a classical Greek lexicon there will be the 2nd gamma [g], but not in a NT lexicon.

Prognōsis occurs twice:

acts 2:23
Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay.

1 Pet 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Progi(g)nōskō occurs a few times:

Acts 26:5
My manner of life then from my youth up, which was from the beginning among mine own nation and at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; having previously known me from the first, if they be willing to testify, that after the straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

[It is the person Paul was was known, yet things about Paul are evidently included in the knowing, namely that he was a Pharisee.]

2 Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand [προγινώσκοντες], beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.

Rom 8:28
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained . . . .

Rom 11:2
God did not cast off his people [Israel] whom he foreknew.

1 pet 1:20
Christ: who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of the times for your sake, who through him are believers in God,

The BDAG Lexicon is the standard NT Greek Lexicon. For some reason (influence of Lutheranism?) BDAG claims that foreknowledge encroaches on the semantic domain of election (God's sovereign choosing). To me this encroachment seems unlikely from the general use of the terms and also by reducing election according to foreknowledge to a tautology: "elect according to election." [BDAG is abbridged & spaced for clarity]

προγινώσκω
1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of)
τί someth. affliction Hermas Similitudes 7:5.
Abs.
προγινώσκοντες since you know this (i.e. what the context makes clear) in advance 2 Pt 3:17.

Of God πάντα Hermas Mandates 4, 3, 4.

—Closely connected is the idea of choice that suggests foreknowledge
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29. τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2

Pass. of Christ προεγνωσμένος πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου 1 Pt 1:20.

Know from time past προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν Ac 26:5

πρόγνωσις
1. foreknowledge πρ. λαμβάνειν τελείαν receive complete foreknowledge 1 Clement 44:2.

2. predetermination, of God’s omniscient wisdom and intention (LXX Judith 9:6)
w. βουλή Ac 2:23.
κατὰ πρόγνωσιν θεοῦ πατρός destined by God the Father (NRSV) 1 Pt 1:2

Since God is omniscient, included in his objective foreknowledge must be everything, including every detail about everyone, their temperaments, their attitudes, their natures, their attributes, their decisions, and whether or not they will believe in the Lord Jesus as Savior.

I was taught by an excellent Bible teacher that foreknow/foreknowledge is fore-entering into an intimate relationship with. And the proof text was from Amos where a Hebrew term (not having "fore-") on it was used to illustrate how "know" has a special use for intimate relationship (Israel is the only nation that God knew.)

But can one limit foreknowledge to a special meaning of knowledge (without "fore-")? Is it not true that His foreknowledge must include absolutely all there is to know about persons (& everything else!) Certainly part of God's foreknowledge must include the knowledge that persons will believe or not believe (not that the text specifies belief or anything in particular that was in the relevant knowledge).

Do you exclude the rest of God's omniscience from the foreknowledge (according to which God chose)?

It is obvious that had the Lord wished to make it clear with the idea of "fore-loved," He could have said precisely that (to wit, "chosen according to the love which the Lord had for certain persons in eternity past). But by saying that, it is hard to make choosing come logically after the loving, if the special love be confined to a certain group -- that would make election prior to the loving -- so it seems to me. So it looks like if one interprets foreknowledge as knowledge in the intimate sense of know:, then a sort of nonsense seems to result:
choosing based on fore-intimacy which was based on choosing!

While no text says that it was "a man's belief in Christ which was foreknown," some (like Thiessen's Systematic Theology (Thiessen believing in eternal security, BTW) explain that it was God's foreknowledge of man's belief in Christ which resulted in the election/choosing/foreordaining/predestination of the Christian.

I am mulling this over.

I put a link below to a good article on this:

http://chafer.nextmeta.com/files/v9n1_3the_meaning_of_proginwskw.pdf

This post of yours is really quite informative. My respect for you has increased by a measure. Your prognosis looks promising.
 
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H

Hoffco

Guest
#7
To crossnote, EXACT right on, man! God does not make decisions, God has it all planed. PERIOD ! Love Hoffco
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#8
Now, as God acts out, in time, His eternal PLAN; As God carries out His plan He shows Himself to be exactly as He is. We learn that God is both a loving and hating person. That God created both good and evil. Love Hoffco
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#9
arguing about how God thinks is rediculous
Jesus is not a liar
he says all can be saved
and he tried to do that


if it was already set, satan would kick back
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#10
look at it this wayif I am wrong I am saved!
if you are wrong you are lost

now
which is the better way to believe?


lets al believe everyone can be saved and pray they will be if they struggle against sin (biblical)
put away sin(Biblical)
and not LOOSE THE CROWN WE HAVE (biblicl

thinking the chosedn are already chosen
if you are wrong

millions will perish because of that false teaching

there is no predstination for salvation
believing that way is deadly to self and to everyone you influence
it is a doctrine from the enemy
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#11
Rom.9:21-24 Psa.5:5 Heb. 5:9 Please , just, read it and believe it. Love Hoffco
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#12
The church of England believed the saved were saved and nothing you cna do about it
the puritans who READ the Bible disagreed.
they had to invent a new Bible to even argue with them though it still shows no predestinatin you cant cahgne the truth it is everywhere

every parable God taught shows t depends on what you do
every parable
depends on what you do

obedient or not
obedient or not
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#13
church of England right?
or
Pilgrims right?

who was right?

the Church of ENgland pushed and persecuted and punished

obviously they were lead by the devil

so if his church taght predestination
I would seriously look if that is a truth of the Bible or not
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#14
i don't think we can limit God's 'foreknowledge' to be simply 'that the person would choose Him'. That is very singular.
If you want to reject the relational connotation of gnosis/gnosko, then you must still accept the broadness of the term,
rather than narrowing it down to the one piece of knowledge that could potentially harm your opponents view of predestination.

Foreknowledge is still of knowing the person themselves, not simply their future actions or attitudes. If this were the case, the word used would have been 'foresight'.

His omniscience is not in question, only His motivation for choosing who are His sheep.
It says in Scripture that it is not on our merit, but His Grace and Mercy.
We choose Him only because He has granted us faith to choose Him.
He didn't choose us just because we had the faith to choose Him.

The verse "because He first chose us" comes to mind.
 
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2

2Thewaters

Guest
#15
any church who pushes persecutes punishes and kills people
is the devils church
any child can tell you that
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#16
To 2thewaters, I weep, because of the abuse of which you talk of: But, Don't judge all Calvinist with the same brush. I am a Biblicist, not a calvinist, as you call, condemn, them, and RIGHTLY so.! I am a Bible believing, preaching calvinist and a Bible preaching Arminian. LOve Hoffco ps, I also weep, as you call God a liar. and you refuse to believe His word. Love Hoffco
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#17
church of England right?
or
Pilgrims right?

who was right?

the Church of ENgland pushed and persecuted and punished

obviously they were lead by the devil

so if his church taght predestination
I would seriously look if that is a truth of the Bible or not
They also taught the Trinity, and that Jesus Christ is Lord.
They also taught that Christ died for our sin and rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father.

Should we question all of those doctrines too?
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#18
The big teaching of the pilgrims was
we must obey God and keep the commandments or you will miss heaven.
This was the evil doctrine that the church of England went nuts over
they did not LIKE that and took away John Bunyans license to preach

LICENSE TO PREADH!

who is of the devil?
LICENSE TO PREACH!

c'mon guys

wake up

that is where we are going to america soon
license to heal the sick
license to bank
license to sell houses
license to preach

demonic.
They fulfilled revelation prophecy
God opened up a wilderness where they could keep the commandments without people killing them


what is interesting
is throughout history they always kill the ones keeping the commandments!

wake up

doesnt that tell YOU something?
HMMMM?

They love to kill Jews and set false flag attacks for them
(Hitler who signed conkordat (look THAT ONE UP!) wikipedia!

burned down the reichstag (UNITED NATIONS BUILDING) and they blamed the Jews!

ok

so what is happenineg as we speak?

UNKNOWN people are firing rockets into israel and they are painting israel black again

havent we seen this before?

those who keep the commandments, the devil hates

so

get on the right side here/
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#19
any church who pushes persecutes punishes and kills people
is the devils church
any child can tell you that
and any child can tell you that your posts are off topic...so I will.