Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[Flamingspirit]

None are so blind, as those who will not see.

You must be BORN AGAIN or you cannot understand spiritual Truths, nor will you see Heaven.

Your false Jesus Christ has no power to save you, and HELL is for real.

COME! Before it is too late, receive the TRUE Jesus Christ of the BIBLE.

It is finished!

It was finished at the cross, and you and everyone here was forgiven of sins before they ever committed one! Again you will believe what you will believe until Chris himself tells you it was nonsense all along. My Christ saves to the uttermost even if yours doesn't.

And once again we all have knowledge. Try using love.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by VCO #378

The genetic codes and DNA passed on to the next generation fulfill the physical reference to MAN. But you are missing the entire point of HE Created us in His image:

I made a mistake and will do this post over. Please stand by

 

[daniel606]

Posted by VCO #378

The genetic codes and DNA passed on to the next generation fulfill the physical reference to MAN. But you are missing the entire point of HE Created us in His image:

This is not a discussion of God creating man in his own image, it is a discussion about the pre-existence. Ok so you believe the creation continues, and there was no pre-existent spirits of men.

I thought it was fascinating, however, to review other versions of the Bible about the one scripture you gave me, Zechariah 12:1. Did you find that interesting how other versions of the same scripture actually state that God formed the spirit of man?

One last comment on the word "host". I want you to look up 2 scriptures that will give you a good idea of the unseen world of spirits that does really exist:

2 Kings 6:15-17 Here Elisha is surrounded by a hoard of Syrians and Elisha's servant ask him what could possibly be done? Elisha asked the Lord to open his eyes, which he did and he beheld spirit horses and spirit chariots. Who do you think was riding those spirit horses and spirit chariots? Spirit men created on the 6th day of creation.

Joshua 5:14-15 Joshua is at the walls of Jericho and sees a man standing off a ways, and goes to him and finds out it is the Lord, and the Lord tells Joshua that he is the Captain of the Lord's "host". If Joshua's eyes had been opened, like Elisha's, Joshua would have seen thousands of the Lord's spirit host that were there to tumble the walls of Jericho.

I would like to show you one of the most interesting scriptures in the Bible. In Genesis chapter 1 vs 26, God creates man and gives them dominion over... Then in Genesis chapter 2 vs 1 he finishes his creation of the heavens and their "host" and the earth and its "host". So God has now created everything and he is going to rest on the 7th day.
Then in Genesis 2:5 it says a wierd thing: And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew, (Wierd statement that doesn't finish the thought) for the Lord God (notice not God /Elohim as in chapter 1, but the Lord God/Yahweh now in chapter 2) had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. Did the plants and herbs get created spiritually first in chapter 1 and then naturally in chapter 2 (see vs 8)? Could man have been created spiritually in chapter 1 and then naturally in chapter 2 (see vs 7)? Give me your explanation if you would of vs 5. Why 2 creations? Why were the man and plants created in chapter 1, not found on the earth yet in chapter 2 and then created in chapter 2 again?

I know you don't study this in Sunday school and certainly not in your Pastor preparation meetings, but if you are willing to look for the pre-existence of the spirits of men, you will find it all over the Bible. Like I say, I have just got started, there are many, many scriptures that teach of the pre-existence.

Just respond to the scriptures I have given you first, and then comment on anything else you are interested in. Thanks

 

[Dan_473]

Finally, one with some understanding of the BIBLE. I know we still disagree on a lot of things, but you are correct that when Jesus fed the 5000 and the 4000, it was a Creative Work. And that each new human spirit is created in the body within the womb, but that spirit is not born ALIVE to the Will of GOD at natural birth, but rather dead in the in sin nature inherited from Adam. That is why becoming born again, is absolutely NECESSARY. I also believe HE did the feedings of the 5000 and 4000 to VALIDATE that HE truly is the CREATOR:

Colossians 1:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead {Never to die again}, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,

Now as for GOD's Work not being perfect, I cannot agree with that.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I will proclaim Yahweh’s name. Declare the greatness of our God!
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The Rock—His work is perfect; all His ways are entirely just. A faithful God, without prejudice, He is righteous and true.
2 Timothy 3:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,

Psalm 19:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul: The testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple.

2 Samuel 22:31 (HCSB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] God—His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is pure. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.


Any time we THINK we found imperfection in HIS WORD, it is OUR interpretation that is imperfect, and NOT HIS WORD.

I believe God's work is perfect... I think he inspired the bible writers who then did a really good but not perfect job of putting it into human language... one thing that leads me to think this is how Isaiah 61 is quoted in Luke 4...

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473 #384

I believe God's work is perfect... I think he inspired the bible writers who then did a really good but not perfect job of putting it into human language... one thing that leads me to think this is how Isaiah 61 is quoted in Luke 4...

Very interesting Dan_473. In just 2 verses in Luke 4:18-19 compared to just 2 verses in Isaiah 61:1-2, I count 23 word changes and 13 lost words. It does have the same kind of message, except the lost words from Isaiah gives a more urgent feel to it all by talking about a day of vengence of our God. So not a lot of difference in what it is trying to say, but someone intentionally or unintentionally changed words and dropped words. That person(s) will be cursed their names will not be found in the book of life.

Even so, it is disconcerting that in just 2 verses there would be so much havoc.

Did you see my research into the 1 verse of Zechariah, 12:1?
Here is what the (HCSB) translation says: ...and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Here is what the (NIRV) Translation says: ... God created the sprits of all men.

Way different conclusion, don't you say.

There were 4 other versions that were like the NIRV.

Thanks for your input

 

[Dan_473]

A lot of Christians know nothing of the truth about the journey of the spirit. These last couple of posts are just the beginning of the discussion. So stay tuned, it will get interesting.

I plan to stick around... may we all have a fruitful long term discussion, as the Lord leads...

 

[Dan_473]

Very interesting Dan_473. In just 2 verses in Luke 4:18-19 compared to just 2 verses in Isaiah 61:1-2, I count 23 word changes and 13 lost words. It does have the same kind of message, except the lost words from Isaiah gives a more urgent feel to it all by talking about a day of vengence of our God. So not a lot of difference in what it is trying to say, but someone intentionally or unintentionally changed words and dropped words. That person(s) will be cursed their names will not be found in the book of life.

Even so, it is disconcerting that in just 2 verses there would be so much havoc.

Did you see my research into the 1 verse of Zechariah, 12:1?
Here is what the (HCSB) translation says: ...and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Here is what the (NIRV) Translation says: ... God created the sprits of all men.

Way different conclusion, don't you say.

There were 4 other versions that were like the NIRV.

Thanks for your input

Luke seems to be using the lxx there in chapter 4... so, maybe dropped words or maybe just different translation approach... but then, is Jesus reading from the lxx in the synagogue? every explanation I can think of points to a great but not perfect bible... or maybe the bible's perfection is something besides being word perfect... I'm guessing the Zech passage is probably ambiguous... I would go with the meaning of God creates the spirit that is within a person.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473 #387

Luke seems to be using the lxx there in chapter 4... so, maybe dropped words or maybe just different translation approach... but then, is Jesus reading from the lxx in the synagogue? every explanation I can think of points to a great but not perfect bible... or maybe the bible's perfection is something besides being word perfect... I'm guessing the Zech passage is probably ambiguous... I would go with the meaning of God creates the spirit that is within a person.

I believe that the pre-existence of our spirits and that they are created by God is very very important to our eternal salvation. It helps us answer some fundamental religious questions like where did we come from, why are we on earth, and what happens to us when we leave this earth life. It gives us a completely different prospective of our life on earth and what we can become. It truly is ennobling and powerful.

You are right on when you say "you are going with the meaning of God creates the spirit that is within a person." I too believe that God creates the spirit and then places it in the body. The body and its individual spirit make up the soul of a man.

So would you mind doing a quick review of my 5 posts on the pre-existence of the spirit? They are 341, 351, 370, 374, and 383. Then if you wish I will continue. As I have said this is a subject that weaves its way all through the Bible and is a fascinating study. I have just got started and would like to see what you think about the whole topic. Would that be ok? You can ask questions all the way and can give me input too. I will not get frustrated with your questions or answers, I hope it will be interesting to you, it will to me. Thanks

 

[daniel606]

Posted by daniel606

I would like to show you one of the most interesting scriptures in the Bible. In Genesis chapter 1 vs 26, God creates man and gives them dominion over... Then in Genesis chapter 2 vs 1 he finishes his creation of the heavens and their "host" and the earth and its "host". So God has now created everything and he is going to rest on the 7th day.
Then in Genesis 2:5 it says a wierd thing: And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew, (Wierd statement that doesn't finish the thought) for the Lord God (notice not God /Elohim as in chapter 1, but the Lord God/Yahweh now in chapter 2) had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. Did the plants and herbs get created spiritually first in chapter 1 and then naturally in chapter 2 (see vs 8)? Could man have been created spiritually in chapter 1 and then naturally in chapter 2 (see vs 7)? Give me your explanation if you would of vs 5. Why 2 creations? Why were the man and plants created in chapter 1, not found on the earth yet in chapter 2 and then created in chapter 2 again?

VCO, I would really like to hear your explanation about one of the most important scriptures in the entire bible. Thank you.

 

[Dan_473]

I believe that the pre-existence of our spirits and that they are created by God is very very important to our eternal salvation. It helps us answer some fundamental religious questions like where did we come from, why are we on earth, and what happens to us when we leave this earth life. It gives us a completely different prospective of our life on earth and what we can become. It truly is ennobling and powerful.

You are right on when you say "you are going with the meaning of God creates the spirit that is within a person." I too believe that God creates the spirit and then places it in the body. The body and its individual spirit make up the soul of a man.

So would you mind doing a quick review of my 5 posts on the pre-existence of the spirit? They are 341, 351, 370, 374, and 383. Then if you wish I will continue. As I have said this is a subject that weaves its way all through the Bible and is a fascinating study. I have just got started and would like to see what you think about the whole topic. Would that be ok? You can ask questions all the way and can give me input too. I will not get frustrated with your questions or answers, I hope it will be interesting to you, it will to me. Thanks

to me, spirits before birth doesn't seem like a big deal... but yes, if you say it is, I'll be glad to look back at the posts and see what happens...

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473

to me, spirits before birth doesn't seem like a big deal... but yes, if you say it is, I'll be glad to look back at the posts and see what happens...

When your finished let me know, I have a couple of interesting scriptures that maybe you have never read before, or never thought of them this way. Thanks.

 

[Dan_473]

When your finished let me know, I have a couple of interesting scriptures that maybe you have never read before, or never thought of them this way. Thanks.

so, I reviewed the posts... well, first, I think gen 2:4 begins a different, and not really compatible, creation story... plants are finished in the first story, in the second, plants haven't yet sprouted... what would it mean to have spiritual plants created? To me, 2:5 makes a lot more sense in the nasb... the elisha and Joshua stories may have happened exactly as described... though they may be angels... or they may be myths intended to tell us that God takes care of those who seek him... why would a spirit or angel need a chariot? Maybe they are true like a good novel is true... your turn...

 

[just-me]

Having just traveled thru Utah, twice, and learning a few things about the state, I'm wondering how people here feel about the Mormon faith. One thing I found interesting is that their crime rate (and homelessness) is about double the national average. And that they really do target out-of-state license plates for "special consideration". What was it Jesus said about welcoming strangers, and removing the log before picking at others specks?

Can't compute your post when researching for the truth.

Violent crime ticked up statewide in 2012, but Utah still has one of the lowest rates in the country, new FBI data shows.
Nearly 5,900 violent crimes were committed in Utah last year — up about 4 percent from the previous year. The state’s rate of violent crimes per 100,000 people was the sixth-lowest in the country behind Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Virginia and Wyoming. The year before, the state had the third-lowest rate.

We also know people in that sate who are Mormons, and I found that they esteem the law of God higher than most other religions. I am not Mormon however. There doctrine is not right but I respect them.

FBI data: Violent crime rate up slightly in Utah | The Salt Lake Tribune

 

[RickyZ]

Can't compute your post when researching for the truth.

Violent crime ticked up statewide in 2012, but Utah still has one of the lowest rates in the country, new FBI data shows.
Nearly 5,900 violent crimes were committed in Utah last year — up about 4 percent from the previous year. The state’s rate of violent crimes per 100,000 people was the sixth-lowest in the country behind Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Virginia and Wyoming. The year before, the state had the third-lowest rate.

We also know people in that sate who are Mormons, and I found that they esteem the law of God higher than most other religions. I am not Mormon however. There doctrine is not right but I respect them.

FBI data: Violent crime rate up slightly in Utah | The Salt Lake Tribune

This is some of the info I found about the crime rate

Crime rate in Salt Lake City, Utah (UT): murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, arson, law enforcement employees, police officers statistics

 

[daniel606]

Posted by RickyZ

This is some of the info I found about the crime rate

Crime rate in Salt Lake City, Utah (UT): murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, arson, law enforcement employees, police officers statistics

Wouldn't you say to be intellectually honest for this topic, you must have a breakdown of what % of those crimes were perpetrated by Mormons and what % are by non-Mormons?

To get closer to the true bottom line, you may even want to go further and find out what % were perpetrated by active Mormons vs
non-active Mormons and non-Mormons. Come up with those statistics and you may have something to write about.

So if you were to come to me and say 60% of the crimes listed above in Utah were committed by active members in the Mormon church, that would make me start to think. But I believe what you will find is that 60% are committed by non-Mormons, 38% by non-active Mormons, and 2% by active Mormons.

One more statistic would be even more interesting and that would be to break out temple-recommend-holding Mormons, vs active-but-do-not-hold-a-temple-recommend Mormons and non-active Mormons and non-Mormons. I say that statistic is this: temple-recommend-holding Mormons 0% and then the rest as before.

The men and women of the Mormon church are good people in general, but active members and temple recommend holders are law abiding, and for the most part very good neighbors. If you got in trouble on the road, Utah would be a good place for that to happen. There are great people in other states too, but I would place Utah at the top of states where people would be willing to help a needy traveler.

So dig deep and come up with a really meaningful statistic about Mormons. Thanks

 

[RickyZ]

Well I'll give it to you that's it's not fair to paint everyone with the same brush. But if my wife and I were to move to Utah we wouldn't be able to limit our associations to only the good folks. No, our life experience would be influenced by ALL of it's residents, which according to the data we found is not pretty. Unless of course you know of a gated community that is restricted to only temple-recommended people. Which of course we wouldn't be able to get into since we're not now and not going to become Mormons.

As for helping travelers, it's a well-spread 'fact' that Utah's police target out of state license plates. We saw that first hand when, even tho we were driving at less than the speed limit, we were followed by a state trooper for 25 miles until we crossed the border. During this 'pursuit' we passed a tour bus stopped on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere with it's hood open and all it's people on the side of the road. I would have thot that the trooper would have stopped to render assistance to these travelers, but no. Dogging us in hopes we'd do something wrong was more important than helping stranded travelers.

Now, does the law enforcement attitude play over into the general population? Hard to say, but the general population is what put the policy makers into place. And again, while the police are hounding out of staters, they let the crime rate soar. Sounds like horribly misplaced priorities to me.

When we asked, we were repeatedly told that 98% of the population is Mormon. So my question is the same as for the Muslims: If the majority of them are decent righteous people, why do they let the minority get away with all that they do?

 

[Jimbone]

Godly love is loving your neighbor as yourself. Why make it complicated.

Whoever can't do that, we are to separate from.

Well is it Godly love to know the truth for yourself, know that they are following a false profits made up scam to hell, and not say anything about it? I think it's Godly love to try to teach them the truth. Look into it further, because everything about the Mormon doctrine can be completely refuted historically, genetically, and biblically. Letting them follow a religion we KNOW is false strait to the pits of hell does not seem very loving to me.

Also for who ever said that "we might as well count 90% of the Christian churches false", sadly that's not far off. There is 1 Jesus and 1 way, and few are those who find it. Super scary thought huh?

 

[just-me]

Well is it Godly love to know the truth for yourself, know that they are following a false profits made up scam to hell, and not say anything about it? I think it's Godly love to try to teach them the truth. Look into it further, because everything about the Mormon doctrine can be completely refuted historically, genetically, and biblically. Letting them follow a religion we KNOW is false strait to the pits of hell does not seem very loving to me.

Also for who ever said that "we might as well count 90% of the Christian churches false", sadly that's not far off. There is 1 Jesus and 1 way, and few are those who find it. Super scary thought huh?

I agree that the Mormon doctrine is skewed particularity with the "Aronic priesthood" thing. Nevertheless I have many relatives in, and around Salt Lake City who are Mormons. Some die hards and some not. If I were to have them close since I live in Tennessee, it would be a happy time for my wife and I. They are some of the nicest people that I have ever known, particularity being family which is rare these days. Nice to each other I mean. Their love, and respect is more prevalent than what I can say for most other religions that I have rubbed shoulders with. What makes the difference ya think? I think it's the way they view all of God's word rather than part of God's word even though I don't agree with their overall doctrine.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473

so, I reviewed the posts... well, first, I think gen 2:4 begins a different, and not really compatible, creation story... plants are finished in the first story, in the second, plants haven't yet sprouted... what would it mean to have spiritual plants created? To me, 2:5 makes a lot more sense in the nasb... the elisha and Joshua stories may have happened exactly as described... though they may be angels... or they may be myths intended to tell us that God takes care of those who seek him... why would a spirit or angel need a chariot? Maybe they are true like a good novel is true... your turn...

The transition between the first creation story in Genesis chapter 1 and the second creation story in chapter 2 is difficult to follow because the bridge between chapter 1 and chapter 2 was corrupted and that bridge is Gen. 2:5. Let me show you another translation that I think you will agree will solve the problem perfectly. Here it is:
Genesis 2:5 (JST)
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew, for I, the Lord God, created all things of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air.

To me all is perfectly clear now. God the Father/Elohim is the creator of all the spirits of everything that was created in chapter 1, then in chapter 2, the Lord God/Yahweh/Jesus is the creator of all things naturally found on the earth. And the transition scripture is clear and precise and that is Gen. 2:5.

That is why the scriptures talk about "we are the children of God", (Romans 8:16), and in fact "we are
God's offspring" (Acts 17:28-29). We are God's offspring in the spirit. We are literally his offspring, and that is why we are the Sons of God in 2 ways: 1) We are literally his son in the spirit creation, 2) we are his adopted son when we believe on him in the flesh.

That's why we can eventually be resurrected, thanks to Jesus and have an eternal body combined with our eternal spirit that makes up an eternal soul, and if we can overcome the world we can sit in Jesus's throne with him and are joint-heirs of everything the Father has and we can be like him. The only way we can be like him is if we were born in the spirit and are an offspring of God before the world was. Ir all starts there.

As far as Joshua and Elisha are concerned, you can think what you wish, but it goes to show you that there is a host of invisible spirits that exist and are there to assist the people of the Lord when the Lord allows. I believe they are part of the spirit creation of chapter 1.

 

[Mosiah]

JohnLuke, I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Let me put you at rest of a quote that you posted about one of our prophets Gordon B. Hinckley.

President Gordon B. Hinckley, responding to a question regarding whether Latter-day Saints believe in the “traditional Christ,” stated:

No I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the fullness of times.
President Hinckley is referring to the concept of Christ that has developed in the centuries since the Nicene Creed was formed—He is saying that we do not believe in non-Biblical creeds. This statement is quite correct: Latter-day Saints do not have some of the same beliefs about Christ that other Christian churches do. He is not saying that we do not believe in the Biblical Christ. In fact, the reason that Latter-day Saints do not accept these creeds is because they are non-Biblical. President Hinckley continued (with words usually omitted by critics):
Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life. [h=3]Further statements[/h]Consider the following words by President Hinckley:
Believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the greatest figure of time and eternity. Believe that His matchless life reached back before the world was formed. Believe that He was the Creator of the earth on which we live. Believe that He was Jehovah of the Old Testament, that He was the Messiah of the New Testament, that He died and was resurrected, that He visited the western continents and taught the people here, that He ushered in this final gospel dispensation, and that He lives, the living Son of the living God, our Savior and our Redeemer.
In the statement above, there is no question that President Hinckley is professing belief in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament. Critics, however, ignore clear statements such as these, and instead look to justify their claims that Latter-day Saints are not Christian by mining the quotes of church leaders for phrases which seem to support their position.

[h=3]Altering quotes[/h]In order to strengthen their claim, critics sometimes even modify these quotes. Consider the use of President Hinckley’s quote in the critical Search for the Truth DVD. The critics have actually added a phrase to the quote:
No I don't believe in the traditional Christ. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the Fullness of Times.
President Hinckley understood how the critics would attempt to portray Latter-day Saints with regard to their belief in Christ:
As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with Them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision. It was a vision of the Almighty and of the Redeemer of the world, glorious beyond our understanding but certain and unequivocating in the knowledge which it brought. It is out of that knowledge, rooted deep in the soil of modern revelation, that we, in the words of Nephi, “talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that [we and] our children may know to what source [we] may look for a remission of [our] sins” (2 Nephi 25:26).
President Hinckley was quite clear in his position regarding Christ:
Are we Christians? Of course we are Christians. We believe in Christ. We worship Christ. We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal life.