Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[blue_ladybug]

I think I was responding to something blue wrote, but I could be wrong about that... I welcome comments from everyone! a thought experiment... suppose God willed that other beings in heaven have free will... is his will then being done?

Gee, I did'nt intend to spark such an intense debate on this! LOL! Just keep in mind that it is just my own personal opinion, and may or may not be true. It makes perfect sense to me, but I know that everyone has a different viewpoint on it.

Dan_473, Your quote here about God willing other beings in heaven to have free will--If he gave the angels free will to choose good or evil, it would make sense that he would give ALL spirit beings free will also. I mean, if we did NOT have free will, and God dictated our entire lives for us, we would all end up back in heaven. But he created sin and free will for a reason--so that we could choose for ourselves, thus giving him the opportunity to help us along the way, but still leave us free to do what we would with our lives.

Once again, this is only my own personal opinion.

 

[Dan_473]

The problem with Mormons as I see it. The have no need of Jesus as it is purely works based. They have written their own book and refer to it more than the bible. They are controlled by 3 families that are filthy stinking rich. They have multiple wives as many as they want (which I could not imagine, I do good with just one). and much much more.

hi Kerry! what are names of the three families?

 

[just-me]

the part about Genesis saying angels are sons of God... where is that? I couldn't find it...

Genesis 6:1-4 (CJB)
1 In time, when *men began to multiply on earth, and daughters were born to them,
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
3 ADONAI said, "My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, for they too are flesh; therefore their life span is to be 120 years."
4 The N'filim (Giants "Nephilim") were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the ancient heroes, men of renown.

"men of renown" being fleshly deities.

The following is the same scripture from the KJV
1 And it came to pass, when *men (not the sons of God in this text) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose .
3 And the LORD said , My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh : yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Genesis 6:11-13
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt ; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence **through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

It isn't hard to understand the phrase **through them when putting all this in context.

 

[Dan_473]

Genesis 6:1-4 (CJB)
1 In time, when *men began to multiply on earth, and daughters were born to them,
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
3 ADONAI said, "My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, for they too are flesh; therefore their life span is to be 120 years."
4 The N'filim (Giants "Nephilim") were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the ancient heroes, men of renown.

"men of renown" being fleshly deities.

The following is the same scripture from the KJV
1 And it came to pass, when *men (not the sons of God in this text) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose .
3 And the LORD said , My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh : yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Genesis 6:11-13
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt ; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence **through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

It isn't hard to understand the phrase **through them when putting all this in context.

well, still not seeing where angels are called sons of God here... maybe we could take a verse at a time, or something?

"men of renown" being fleshly deities... why do you say that?

 

[just-me]

well, still not seeing where angels are called sons of God here... maybe we could take a verse at a time, or something?

"men of renown" being fleshly deities... why do you say that?

How would you understand this if you were having a conversation with Moses on a personal basis and He said "the sons of God saw the daughters of men?"

I would distinguish a difference, and then I would probably ask him "why did they have sex with man's female offspring? Is this not the way God created things telling Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply? What's the purpose of recording a story like this?"

He would probably answer, "Because this story explains something very different than what was originally created and gives reason to why God destroyed the earth with a flood."

This is describing a situation that God would desire Christians to understand for the simple purpose of identifying His righteous judgments.

So what's the focus one might ask themselves.
1. Violence filled the earth through them. (Gen 6:13)
2. Giants were on the earth.
3. Goliath, his dad and brothers were men of renown.
4. Giants are not recorded within the original creation.
5. The scripture defines a difference in context between the daughters of men, and the sons of God.
6. God created the fallen angels as well as the ones that didn't fall. (Ezekiel 28:15)
7. Greek and Roman gods were based on this reality.

With all this, we can see a more profound meaning to the worshiping strange gods.

Joshua 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

Terah, and Nachor were not gods (deities as mentioned) but served, and worshiped them. They were on this side of the flood but heard the stories from before the flood. They made images of them from times of old. One has to put this all together.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473

well, still not seeing where angels are called sons of God here... maybe we could take a verse at a time, or something?

"men of renown" being fleshly deities... why do you say that?

Dan, I am the one that put 2 + 2 together and found that "angels" are "sons of God". First of all, we know there are angels in heaven today and there were angels in heaven in the pre-existence (before the world was made). We know that their form is and was "spirit". We know that God created these spirit angels.

Secondly, we know that there were "sons of God" in the pre-existence. We read that in Job 38:3-7 especially vs 7.
The "sons of God" were spirit beings also and were created by God. It is not a wild leap to say, the "sons of God" are spirits, the angels are "spirits" and God created them both. The "sons of God" could realistically be angels.

The word "angel" only means "messenger". So did God use any of the spirit "sons of God" to be a messenger for him? If he did this "son of God" would also be a messenger or angel.

Just-me has a notion that some or all of these pre-existent "sons of God" did evil when they came to earth and did something terribly wrong. That is true as far as I can see, but the issue was "the sons of God" did exist in the pre-existence.

 

[Dan_473]

How would you understand this if you were having a conversation with Moses on a personal basis and He said "the sons of God saw the daughters of men?"

I would distinguish a difference, and then I would probably ask him "why did they have sex with man's female offspring? Is this not the way God created things telling Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply? What's the purpose of recording a story like this?"

He would probably answer, "Because this story explains something very different than what was originally created and gives reason to why God destroyed the earth with a flood."

This is describing a situation that God would desire Christians to understand for the simple purpose of identifying His righteous judgments.

So what's the focus one might ask themselves.
1. Violence filled the earth through them. (Gen 6:13)
2. Giants were on the earth.
3. Goliath, his dad and brothers were men of renown.
4. Giants are not recorded within the original creation.
5. The scripture defines a difference in context between the daughters of men, and the sons of God.
6. God created the fallen angels as well as the ones that didn't fall. (Ezekiel 28:15)
7. Greek and Roman gods were based on this reality.

With all this, we can see a more profound meaning to the worshiping strange gods.

Joshua 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

Terah, and Nachor were not gods (deities as mentioned) but served, and worshiped them. They were on this side of the flood but heard the stories from before the flood. They made images of them from times of old. One has to put this all together.

is certainly a possible interpretation... my opinion here, it's not the only one... the sons of God here could be angels, maybe some other kind of spirit creature... a warrior tribe of humans... space aliens...

 

[Dan_473]

Dan, I am the one that put 2 + 2 together and found that "angels" are "sons of God". First of all, we know there are angels in heaven today and there were angels in heaven in the pre-existence (before the world was made). We know that their form is and was "spirit". We know that God created these spirit angels.

Secondly, we know that there were "sons of God" in the pre-existence. We read that in Job 38:3-7 especially vs 7.
The "sons of God" were spirit beings also and were created by God. It is not a wild leap to say, the "sons of God" are spirits, the angels are "spirits" and God created them both. The "sons of God" could realistically be angels.

The word "angel" only means "messenger". So did God use any of the spirit "sons of God" to be a messenger for him? If he did this "son of God" would also be a messenger or angel.

Just-me has a notion that some or all of these pre-existent "sons of God" did evil when they came to earth and did something terribly wrong. That is true as far as I can see, but the issue was "the sons of God" did exist in the pre-existence.

do we know that there were angels in heaven before the world was made... did we talk about this already and I forgot? maybe we did... are the sons of God in gen 6 spirit beings for sure?

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473

does something in the verse show existence before birth?

It does't say it, but it strongly implies it. The only place that a Father could create spirit beings is in the pre-existence. So when you read "the Father of spirits" it relates to the pre-existence.

 

[Dan_473]

It does't say it, but it strongly implies it. The only place that a Father could create spirit beings is in the pre-existence. So when you read "the Father of spirits" it relates to the pre-existence.

" The only place that a Father could create spirit beings is in the pre-existence" ...how so? also, are you still interested in acts 17?... post 497, I think...

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473

do we know that there were angels in heaven before the world was made... did we talk about this already and I forgot? maybe we did... are the sons of God in gen 6 spirit beings for sure?

Yes, we have talked about it many times, remember our discussion of satan and his angels, fought agains Michael and his angels. This all happened in the pre-existence. Angels were there.

The sons of God in Gen. 6 are not spirits only. They now have bodies of flesh and bone. Their pre-existent spirit was placed in their bodies and they did evil in the sight of the Lord.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473

" The only place that a Father could create spirit beings is in the pre-existence" ...how so? also, are you still interested in acts 17?... post 497, I think...

Spirits are created before the world is. It is spirit that gives life, and animates the physical body. Then the world is created and physical bodies are procreated by 2 mortals.. The spirit is then placed into the body and life abounds.

You must have spirit before physical or physical does not work. Scientists have tried their hardest to produce life many, many other ways, but have always failed. That's because they don't know how to create spirit.

 

[just-me]

is certainly a possible interpretation... my opinion here, it's not the only one... the sons of God here could be angels, maybe some other kind of spirit creature... a warrior tribe of humans... space aliens...

Yes they are fallen angels for sure. Their offspring were Nephlim, men of renown, (giants) who live up to 120 years in difference to Methuselah, Enoch, Seth and so on. Genesis 6:3 3 And the LORD said , My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also (like man... he is speaking of nephilim and their fathers who are fallen angels that took human form) is flesh : yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

 

[just-me]

Spirits are created before the world is. It is spirit that gives life, and animates the physical body. Then the world is created and physical bodies are procreated by 2 mortals.. The spirit is then placed into the body and life abounds.

You must have spirit before physical or physical does not work. Scientists have tried their hardest to produce life many, many other ways, but have always failed. That's because they don't know how to create spirit.

It's the Spirit of God breathing life into the body to become a living soul. Not the spirit of the soul or of man.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and *breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The interesting part of this is the Hebrew word for spirit. We almost get a little spooky talking about the Holy Ghost, but the Hebrew word behind spirit is *ruach, and it means "air in motion." It is the same word for *"breath." It also means "life."

The term "ruacḥ haqodesh" does not occur in the Pentateuch, but occurs once in Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. (take not thy breath of life from me.)

 

[just-me]

To Daniel606 did you get my private message here in CC?

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, we have talked about it many times, remember our discussion of satan and his angels, fought agains Michael and his angels. This all happened in the pre-existence. Angels were there.

The sons of God in Gen. 6 are not spirits only. They now have bodies of flesh and bone. Their pre-existent spirit was placed in their bodies and they did evil in the sight of the Lord.

when does the Satan battle take place? does the bible say? maybe it does, I don't know... does gen 6 say the sons of God have spirits? ... or physical bodies? if it's there in the words, please help me find which words you're looking at...

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

Science and space doctrines?

One of God's attributes is omniscience. Meaning that he has all knowledge. Omniscience is a compound word, and if you break it up into its 2 components they are: omni and science. God knows all there is to know about anything of a scientific nature. Our best scientific knowledge we have is like one speck of sand on a 30 mile beach of sand compared to Gods knowledge. The secrets of the universe and science and space are all part of his domain and his interest.

If your church does not have science and space doctrines, they fall short of the glory of God. His majesty and power and glory are manifested in his science and space knowledge and creations.

If we overcome the world and have the opportunity to sit with Jesus in his throne, and because we are joint-heirs with Christ of all that the Father has, I look forward to having the attribute of omniscience and the ability to create.

 

[Dan_473]

Spirits are created before the world is. It is spirit that gives life, and animates the physical body. Then the world is created and physical bodies are procreated by 2 mortals.. The spirit is then placed into the body and life abounds.

You must have spirit before physical or physical does not work. Scientists have tried their hardest to produce life many, many other ways, but have always failed. That's because they don't know how to create spirit.

well, maybe we should talk about what we're doing here in the thread... do we just want to see if spirits before birth is possible by some reading of the bible? or is it actually taught? I think the doctrine is possible, I don't see that it's required by any passage... can God make a body and spirit at the same time? could God make a human spirit today if he decided to?

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473

when does the Satan battle take place? does the bible say? maybe it does, I don't know... does gen 6 say the sons of God have spirits? ... or physical bodies? if it's there in the words, please help me find which words you're looking at...

Read Revelations chapter 12 and you will see the war in heaven. It had to happen before the earth was populated because they were here when Adam and Eve were first in the garden of Eden.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473

can God make a body and spirit at the same time? could God make a human spirit today if he decided to?

God really can do anything he pleases. He has determined to create spirit first and then mortal body second. I can't speak to why the Lord has chosen to do it this way.