Ideas to 'Help' the Church

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Jan 6, 2012
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"The unfolding of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple" (Ps. 119:130).

This post is by request and is about 'ideas' to help churches operate smoothly and efficiently according to the Biblical example. This does not address how church is done today, therefore, it will not make sense of church today but will only make sense if the examples of Jesus and the early Church are revisited.

The Church only works fluidly (effortlessly, in unity, in power) when it is built on the Person of Jesus Christ, the living Person who died in the past but is alive today and right now: "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Heb. 13:8). Jesus revealed the Father. The Church works when it is built on a foundation of revelation or currently-proceeding understanding-- today's manna, not manna from yesterday.

When the disciples returned to Jesus after preaching the Gospel with power, He praised God saying, "I thank You, Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes" (Lk. 10:21). When Peter said that Jesus was the Son of God, Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you... for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but My Father in Heaven" (Matt. 16:17). The only real way God teaches us is by unfolding (revealing) His Word. Here is a simple example of revelatory teaching interrupting 'church as usual':

Pastor Bob is preaching a sermon when a little girl shouting disrupts him. The girl's mom hushes her, but Pastor Bob asks her what is wrong. She points over at a pouting little boy sitting near her and complains that he doesn't like her. Pastor Bob calls the little girl and boy up on stage and explains to them that they are to see each other as brother and sister and therefore as friends. He gets them to shake hands, and they return to their seats both in a better mood. Then Pastor Bob turns to the congregation and begins to tell them, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a little girl who pursued a little boy. He wasn't interested in her and rejected her, and her heart was broken. Later as an adult, he bumped into her. She was very attractive, and he took interest in her. But she was already married and wasn't interested in him. So then, seek God while He may be found; receive Him while He is still pursuing you, because a time will come when He will no longer pursue you, and it will be too late for you to turn to Him."
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#2
QUOTE:
This post is by request and is about 'ideas' to help churches operate smoothly and efficiently according to the Biblical example. This does not address how church is done today, therefore, it will not make sense of church today but will only make sense if the examples of Jesus and the early Church are revisited.
END QOTATION...........

Maybe you should find a church congregation that it does address..........???

Sorry your church doesn't follow the teachings of Jesus.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#3
QUOTE:
This post is by request and is about 'ideas' to help churches operate smoothly and efficiently according to the Biblical example. This does not address how church is done today, therefore, it will not make sense of church today but will only make sense if the examples of Jesus and the early Church are revisited.
END QOTATION...........

Maybe you should find a church congregation that it does address..........???

Sorry your church doesn't follow the teachings of Jesus.
Yes, this thread (I meant) was started in response to this: "Why not put forth ideas that would help the church?" (http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97742-evil-church-births-remnant.html.) This thread isn't meant to address a specific church but really to address churches in general. Its premise is that revelatory teaching must precede expository preaching in importance if Christians are to experience Jesus in the here and now in the churches.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#4
It seems that the 'revelatory' aspect (Lu 10:21) is dependent on God and not man. We are to preach the word but it is God who opens eyes.

He asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!" Then Jesus told him, "How blessed you are, Simon son of Jonah, since flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, though my Father in heaven has.
(Mat 16:15-17)

So preaching the Word...yes.
Coming up with cutsie parables and stories...ehhh.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#5
It seems that the 'revelatory' aspect (Lu 10:21) is dependent on God and not man. We are to preach the word but it is God who opens eyes.

He asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!" Then Jesus told him, "How blessed you are, Simon son of Jonah, since flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, though my Father in heaven has.
(Mat 16:15-17)

So preaching the Word...yes.
Coming up with cutsie parables and stories...ehhh.
You told me to keep it short, and so I did. The parable was simply an example of currently-proceeding revelation. After the pastor talked to the kids, he received inspiration from the Holy Spirit (I didn't add that as I was keeping it short) and began to tell the parable. Everything Jesus said was by revelation (in-the-moment inspiration). He mentions this in the Bible, but in the OT, it also prophesied this of Him several times (i.e. that He would not just 'teach the Word' but would teach by revelation or in-the-moment inspiration). Isaiah prophesies this at least twice; in one passage, he prophesies about Jesus Christ this way (this is Jesus speaking):

"The Lord God has given Me the tongue of the instructed (wise), that I should know how to speak a word in season to him who is weary. He wakens Me morning by morning; He wakens My ear to listen as one being taught" (50:4).

Jesus said God gave Him a tongue (really, 'heart') of wisdom so that Jesus would know what to say in the moment when He ministered: "that I should know how to speak a word in season to him who is weary".

Jesus wants ministers to follow His example; this doesn't mean they speak parables all the time as He didn't. It does mean they don't just study and teach from the Bible but that even with their studying, they allow the Holy Spirit to lead them in the moment. The Bible says much about being a child of God, but Rom. 8:14 summarizes what a (mature) child of God looks like: "Those who are led by the Spirit of God (moment by moment) are the sons of God."

When it comes down to it, the proof is in the pudding for those who aren't able to see it in God's Word. If any pastor or minister was simply 'preaching the Word' and suddenly received inspiration from the Spirit and began to speak what he was receiving, the change in the church or setting would be noticeable. If Pastor Bob was preaching and then began to tell a parable like that, the atmosphere would change immediately, and everyone would feel it from the elderly to the little kids. If Pastor Bob continued in that vein, being led moment by moment by the Spirit, the service would be unlike any before it.

I saw this 'intervention' of revelatory preaching happen in one church in Rochester, NY in 2006. Everyone reacted to it, and it was recorded on the sermon tape. Everyone was amazed: the pastor always taught from the Bible; but when he one day suddenly came under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit also, he suddenly taught with authority (no shouting or wild gesticulating; his words just suddenly carried presence and authority), and everyone in the church was amazed and yet all benefited. In the eleven year history at that church, nothing approaching that had ever happened, yet the people benefited from that one instance.
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
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#6
I have witnessed this "revelatory" preaching twice,
and have also witnessed many false teachers pretending to preach this way.

Both times I heard true revelatory preaching were not from a pulpit, but we're in conversation,
and I will ever be blessed by those conversations.

One was with a dying elder,
the other was with a very meek woman
who was not known for speaking many words,
yet opened up the Scripture to us in a powerful way.
She still sits in our congregation, but she is as quiet as before.
Just listening.

I am excited for the next time the Lord provokes her to speak, lol.
(Not that she is a prophetess or anything,
But that He has obviously given her wisdom)
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#7
I have witnessed this "revelatory" preaching twice,
and have also witnessed many false teachers pretending to preach this way.

Both times I heard true revelatory preaching were not from a pulpit, but we're in conversation,
and I will ever be blessed by those conversations.

One was with a dying elder,
the other was with a very meek woman
who was not known for speaking many words,
yet opened up the Scripture to us in a powerful way.
She still sits in our congregation, but she is as quiet as before.
Just listening.

I am excited for the next time the Lord provokes her to speak, lol.
(Not that she is a prophetess or anything,
But that He has obviously given her wisdom)
Yes. "Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit." Shouting or performing doesn't make the Holy Spirit manifest or do anything for people. I have heard 'revelatory teaching' several times. It doesn't only affect Christians but also non-Christians as well as even animals (one time, I saw it calm a timid and skittish dog who then climbed into the lap of the person talking). It is always noticeable (i.e. it causes awe or gets people's attention); it just stands out without trying. It is the kind of preaching or teaching that happened on Pentecost after which people were pricked in their hearts and said, "Brethren, what shall we do?" It has effect on people; that's why I said that for those who can't believe that revelatory teaching is available today and is God's preferred method of church today, the proof is in the pudding. That means that wherever one was to see it happen, they would both feel its effects and see its effects on others; and they would be relieved of all doubt regarding the type of teaching that God uses to establish and build the Church (i.e. the people in the church).

I'm not surprised that that meek woman sits quietly in church: people who can speak by revelation tend to be quiet about it; it even says this about Jesus: in Isa. 11, it says He would be quiet and wouldn't raise His voice; and in Isa. 50:4, He says of God, "He wakens Me morning by morning; He wakens My ear to listen as one being taught." Jesus knew more than everyone, but He did the most listening as God's power and effect is from manna gathered today (in-the-moment revelation) rather than manna gathered yesterday (what we learned years ago or even the day before). God gave Jesus the wisdom to know how to speak to each situation correctly in the moment, "that [He] should know how to speak a word in season" or the word needed in the moment. I wish this important distinction between 'yesterday's manna' and 'today's manna' was more apparent to more people.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#8
we have found that no matter what, if we speak
the Truth in Love, there will be some kind of revealing.

whether we are open to it or not is the question,
'he that hath ears'.......
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#9
Again, God opens eyes when and how He chooses...it's not by the ingenuity or decision of man.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#10
God's 'preferred' method of teaching is -not- people preaching their personal brainstorms and composing mediocre 'parables' while people pretend it is 'inspired'...
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#11
we have found that no matter what, if we speak
the Truth in Love, there will be some kind of revealing.

whether we are open to it or not is the question,
'he that hath ears'.......
That's true about Love and openness. Sometimes, however, the truth spoken in Love falls on more deaf ears than open ears. Revelation, as everything from God, comes from Love; but it is distinct from Love in that it has its own specialty. Not everyone receives Love, but revelation sort of just 'enters' in (as we see with Peter who didn't receive it from the Father about Jesus because he prayed or wore phylacteries or attended synagogue more than the other disciples): "The entrance of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple" (Ps. 119:130). Overall, Love waits to be received; overall, revelation just enters on in.

Through revelation, God has been able to reach people whose hearts were/are closed tight and who were/are against God. Without revelation (i.e. knowing the actual truth), God cannot condemn anyone. Therefore, everyone who will be condemned has received enough revelation (which means 'to know' and not just 'to believe'). Many atheists believe there is no God; but they all know that Gods exists, therefore, God has clearance to judge them which He would not have if they simply believed but did not know. (Rom. 1:18-22.)

Revelation causes God's Word and words to enter the most hardened hearts; they can close their ears and hearts all they want, but God needs a way to get truth (and the chance for liberty) to people so they can be free. That way is revelation (a total and complete knowing in the heart). Revelation is important so that people know the right way to take before they have to face Him at judgment ("He has shown you, oh man, what is good"-- Mic. 8.) So, anyone who will stand before Him and say, "I didn't know" (and all other variants of that such as the Christians who will say, "Did we not [do such and such] in Your name") will realize that they knew what God required of them; but they didn't believe Him (take Him seriously) to their own detriment.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#12
Again, God opens eyes when and how He chooses...it's not by the ingenuity or decision of man.
Can you explain the two statements you made above:

1. God opens eyes when and how He chooses

2. It's not by the ingenuity or decision of man
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#13
If we don't do something about these people who only come to CC to criticize, we soon will have no people who dare tell of their experiences with the Lord, knowing nothing will be looked at with love or even a bit of understanding. These people are so bold they will even criticize the Lord for giving some scripture saying the Lord didn't mean it for us, or God meant it to show how He would harm us.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#14
If we don't do something about these people who only come to CC to criticize, we soon will have no people who dare tell of their experiences with the Lord, knowing nothing will be looked at with love or even a bit of understanding. These people are so bold they will even criticize the Lord for giving some scripture saying the Lord didn't mean it for us, or God meant it to show how He would harm us.
RachelBibleStudent has aggressively and personally attacked me on two other threads (one here: http://christianchat.com/christian-news-forum/97106-crimes-elite-against-children.html), in the Bible Study chat room about two nights go, and now here-- personal attacks that have little to do with what was being said. She ridiculed the thought that anyone can have an encounter with God; at least she called my own encounters (recorded here: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/84689-experiencing-gods-presence-my-experiences.html) false. She seems to disdain and ridicule the thought that you can experience God today as the Living God or "Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever" and seems to believe that though Jesus said the Holy Spirit teaches us and leads us into all truth, all we need is the Bible and nothing more. I have reported her and several others to the moderators, admin, and site owner in the past and today, but it's up to them to take action regarding any type of harassment. I, however, will continue to post and share and to report abuse of any kind whether or not anyone does anything about it. Freedoms are being threatened and are going out the window all around the world, but terrorism shouldn't be allowed online in a Christian setting.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#15
Can you explain the two statements you made above:

1. God opens eyes when and how He chooses

2. It's not by the ingenuity or decision of man
One is in your OP and I'll throw in a few...

1. God opens eyes when and how He chooses

You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes" (Lk. 10:21).
but their eyes were prevented from recognizing him. (Luk 24:16)
Then their eyes were opened, and they knew who he was. And he vanished from them. (Luk 24:31)
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luk 24:45)



2. It's not by the ingenuity or decision of man

However, to all who received him, those believing in his name, he gave authority to become God's children, who were born, not merely in a genetic sense, nor from lust, nor from man's desire, but from the will of God. (Joh 1:12-13)

Where is the wise person? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? God has turned the wisdom of the world into nonsense, hasn't he? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe through the nonsense of our preaching.
(1Co 1:20-21)

Brothers, think about your own calling. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is nonsense in the world to make the wise feel ashamed. God chose what is weak in the world to make the strong feel ashamed. And God chose what is insignificant in the world, what is despised, what is nothing, in order to destroy what is something, so that no one may boast in God's presence.
(1Co 1:26-29)
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#16
It's what God did for us and not what we can do. Can you get that through your thick skull.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#17
RachelBibleStudent has aggressively and personally attacked me on two other threads (one here: http://christianchat.com/christian-news-forum/97106-crimes-elite-against-children.html), in the Bible Study chat room about two nights go, and now here-- personal attacks that have little to do with what was being said. She ridiculed the thought that anyone can have an encounter with God; at least she called my own encounters (recorded here: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/84689-experiencing-gods-presence-my-experiences.html) false. She seems to disdain and ridicule the thought that you can experience God today as the Living God or "Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever" and seems to believe that though Jesus said the Holy Spirit teaches us and leads us into all truth, all we need is the Bible and nothing more. I have reported her and several others to the moderators, admin, and site owner in the past and today, but it's up to them to take action regarding any type of harassment. I, however, will continue to post and share and to report abuse of any kind whether or not anyone does anything about it. Freedoms are being threatened and are going out the window all around the world, but terrorism shouldn't be allowed online in a Christian setting.
so you personally attack me in a post that has little to do with what is being said in this thread...and in the process accuse me of having made personal attacks that have little to do with what was being said...

someone else can do the psychoanalysis this time...

regarding the actual substance of your post...and i am using the term 'substance' loosely...i don't ridicule the idea that someone can have an encounter with God...but my discernment inclines me towards serious questions about your account and corollary accounts in which you say that a christian and longtime friend of yours was suddenly disturbed by your presence immediately after you encountered a spiritual influence that evidently affirmed your dismissiveness towards the bible...a spiritual influence which you also claim is responsible for an episode in which you showed up at a church one day and immediately began accusing longtime church members of being satanists with no evidence whatsoever...

given your story it shouldn't be surprising that anyone would call your opinions on what it means to experience God into question...

what i believe is that 'faith comes by hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of christ'...the word of christ is in the bible...not in the 'revelatory' words of a preacher inventing his own questionable parables...

i make up analogies all the time...the difference is that i am not so presumptuous that i assume my words are from the holy spirit...
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#18
RachelBibleStudent has aggressively and personally attacked me on two other threads (one here: http://christianchat.com/christian-news-forum/97106-crimes-elite-against-children.html), in the Bible Study chat room about two nights go, and now here-- personal attacks that have little to do with what was being said. She ridiculed the thought that anyone can have an encounter with God; at least she called my own encounters (recorded here: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/84689-experiencing-gods-presence-my-experiences.html) false. She seems to disdain and ridicule the thought that you can experience God today as the Living God or "Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever" and seems to believe that though Jesus said the Holy Spirit teaches us and leads us into all truth, all we need is the Bible and nothing more. I have reported her and several others to the moderators, admin, and site owner in the past and today, but it's up to them to take action regarding any type of harassment. I, however, will continue to post and share and to report abuse of any kind whether or not anyone does anything about it. Freedoms are being threatened and are going out the window all around the world, but terrorism shouldn't be allowed online in a Christian setting.
I am so pleased to hear you say you are not being frightened off by bullies, so many people put the threats by the bullies ahead of speaking of the Lord. We must be strong enough to stand up to the demons let loose in the last days. We are asked to stand firm on the word and even to give our lives for that pure word.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#19
RachelBibleStudent has aggressively and personally attacked me on two other threads (one here: http://christianchat.com/christian-news-forum/97106-crimes-elite-against-children.html), in the Bible Study chat room about two nights go, and now here-- personal attacks that have little to do with what was being said. She ridiculed the thought that anyone can have an encounter with God; at least she called my own encounters (recorded here: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/84689-experiencing-gods-presence-my-experiences.html) false. She seems to disdain and ridicule the thought that you can experience God today as the Living God or "Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever" and seems to believe that though Jesus said the Holy Spirit teaches us and leads us into all truth, all we need is the Bible and nothing more. I have reported her and several others to the moderators, admin, and site owner in the past and today, but it's up to them to take action regarding any type of harassment. I, however, will continue to post and share and to report abuse of any kind whether or not anyone does anything about it. Freedoms are being threatened and are going out the window all around the world, but terrorism shouldn't be allowed online in a Christian setting.
I went to your 2nd link to verify and the only entry was yours!

Experiencing God's Presence: My Experiences)


I will cease responding to your posts seeing you get edgy and report people pretty easy. I'm pretty rough spoken at times and don't care to get booted for that.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#20
It's what God did for us and not what we can do. Can you get that through your thick skull.
Who are you addressing in this post, and can you explain what you said.