Where did all the apostles go?
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Apostles is probably not the best term after the original 12 for my subject line. Still Paul, Timothy and others came during or after the original 12. Where are these new disciples for the last 2000 years that teach sound doctrine with authority. We are left with big formal so called churches all claiming to know the truth but none truly appear to have the whole truth. I fear we have been led astray for 2000 years and are finallying awaking from our slumber.
the completed word of God tells us that there will be latter rain,
this is his spirit being poured out onto his begotten sons in this latter times.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
i am not saying it is a new word at all.
Most of Paul's thirteen epistles begin by establishing his credentials as an apostle, specifically as the apostle to the gentiles
Paul's Greeting to the Galatians
Gal 1:1Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:…
Paul's Greeting to the Galatians
Gal 1:1Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:…
No, duke. Christ never abandoned us. He promised to never leave his flock wandering without shepherds.
1. "I will give you shepherds after my own heart" (Jer. 3:15).
In these words from the prophet Jeremiah, God promises his people that he will never leave them without shepherds to gather them together and guide them: "I will set shepherds over them [my sheep] who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed (Jer. 23.4).
The Church, the People of God, constantly experiences the reality of this prophetic message and continues joyfully to thank God for it. She knows that Jesus Christ himself is the living, supreme and definitive fulfillment of God's promise: "I am the good shepherd" (Jn. 10:11). He, "the great shepherd of the sheep" (Heb. 13:20), entrusted to the apostles and their successors the ministry of shepherding God's flock (cf. Jn. 21:15ff.; 1 Pt. 5:2).
Without priests the Church would not be able to live that fundamental obedience which is at the very heart of her existence and her mission in history, an obedience in response to the command of Christ: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Mt. 28:19) and "Do this in remembrance of me" (Lk. 22:19; cf. 1 Cor. 11.24), i.e:, an obedience to the command to announce the Gospel and to renew daily (in the Mass) the sacrifice of the giving of his body and the shedding of his blood for the life of the world.
Pastores Dabo Vobis - John Paul II - Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation (March 25, 1992)
K
Let me explain it to you this way. Have you ever watched fireworks? Well it starts off one here, one there for a long time, then there is the grand finally and a whole bunch go off all at once, then there is just a fading of the last ones as they fall toward the ground- and that's it, show's over. The "one here and one there" represents the miracles of the prophets to show that God really was speaking through them. The "grand finally" represents Christ doing many miracles unlike no other. The "fading lights" represent the apostles doing a few last miracles- proving they were Christ's apostles. And with the completion of Revelation and the 12 apostles be gone from the earth, everything that needed to be proved was proven. Everything that need to be said (bible) was said. There are many steps in planting a farm, but once it is done you just have to wait for the harvest (judgement day).
A lack of apostles and prophecy and miracles is largely due to unbelief. Important to define 'unbelief' biblically. It does not mean 'an inability to believe' but means 'rejection of or rebellion against God'. (If you want me to provide passages for my defintion of biblical unbelief, please ask.) When Jesus was on earth, we can note when we look that He didn't do many or any miracles for people who rejected or rebelled against Him (e.g. the Pharisees, the Sadducees, people in His hometown, the island of Gadara, etc.); He did miracles for those who received or came to Him.
The argument against apostles and prophecy and miracles is raging among Christians today, and most people are justified in their eyes, not by the Bible. The Bible, when used as a history Book and not something in which to confirm one's beliefs, shows in many ways and in many places that while certain aspects of the OT would be discarded (e.g. sacrifice), everything that began in Jesus Christ will never pass away because He is the perfect which was to come, and everything He did and established must then continue forever. We can see that He did miracles and established apostles and prophecy while on earth and after He ascended; according to the Bible, this means that all those things will exist for eternity: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son" (Heb. 1:1-2). In the OT, God spoke (past tense); in Jesus Christ, God has spoken (with finality, continuous tense, is speaking).
Why the 2,000 year gap? God has what I call 'set times' and then 'appointed times'. I describe the former as calendar dates He has set in which He will act; the former I describe as times when God does things because someone has met the qualifications. We haven't met qualifications and so haven't seen apostles, prophecies, and miracles for a long time. However, God has a set time when, whether or not we believe that apostles, prophecies, and miracles are for today, He will cause them to again manifest. The Joel passage Peter quoted is a perfect example. In Peter's day, the prophecy manifested as an 'appointed time' (they met the qualifications: "Wait in the city until you are endued with power from on high"), and sometime in the future, it will manifest as 'a set time'. From Pentecost till now, we are in 'appointed times' when God will only do certain things when we meet qualifications. If the disciples didn't wait like Jesus told them, the Promise would never have been sent. Today, if we don't walk in obedience as they did in waiting, we miss a lot of 'Pentecosts' or 'appointed times'.
The argument against apostles and prophecy and miracles is raging among Christians today, and most people are justified in their eyes, not by the Bible. The Bible, when used as a history Book and not something in which to confirm one's beliefs, shows in many ways and in many places that while certain aspects of the OT would be discarded (e.g. sacrifice), everything that began in Jesus Christ will never pass away because He is the perfect which was to come, and everything He did and established must then continue forever. We can see that He did miracles and established apostles and prophecy while on earth and after He ascended; according to the Bible, this means that all those things will exist for eternity: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son" (Heb. 1:1-2). In the OT, God spoke (past tense); in Jesus Christ, God has spoken (with finality, continuous tense, is speaking).
Why the 2,000 year gap? God has what I call 'set times' and then 'appointed times'. I describe the former as calendar dates He has set in which He will act; the former I describe as times when God does things because someone has met the qualifications. We haven't met qualifications and so haven't seen apostles, prophecies, and miracles for a long time. However, God has a set time when, whether or not we believe that apostles, prophecies, and miracles are for today, He will cause them to again manifest. The Joel passage Peter quoted is a perfect example. In Peter's day, the prophecy manifested as an 'appointed time' (they met the qualifications: "Wait in the city until you are endued with power from on high"), and sometime in the future, it will manifest as 'a set time'. From Pentecost till now, we are in 'appointed times' when God will only do certain things when we meet qualifications. If the disciples didn't wait like Jesus told them, the Promise would never have been sent. Today, if we don't walk in obedience as they did in waiting, we miss a lot of 'Pentecosts' or 'appointed times'.
Because humans are fallible, and we live in a fallen world. Yes, even in Christ's own Church people do dumb things, naturally. Humans being human.
The succession of apostles though has existed since Christ.
APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION
The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.
Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations.
The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.
The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture. Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases.
Thus the early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, "[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it" (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).
For the early Fathers, "the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are . . . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’" (ibid.).
Thus on the basis of experience the Fathers could be "profoundly convinced of the futility of arguing with heretics merely on the basis of Scripture. The skill and success with which they twisted its plain meaning made it impossible to reach any decisive conclusion in that field" (ibid., 41).
Clement I
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
Hegesippus
"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).
Augustine
"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).
Apostolic Succession | Answers
The great commission in Mat 28 is a command to make disciples. Not a command to make converts but disciples. This is done by teaching them the word of God delivered to the saints.
There are some that hold to the belief that there are apostles in the world today. I do not see that God has appointed any apostles. Pastor-teachers yes according to Eph 4:11. Since the revelation of God is complete, the bible is complete, there is no longer a need in the church for God to send apostles.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
There are some that hold to the belief that there are apostles in the world today. I do not see that God has appointed any apostles. Pastor-teachers yes according to Eph 4:11. Since the revelation of God is complete, the bible is complete, there is no longer a need in the church for God to send apostles.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
we are called saints who keep commandents, and testemony of christ i believe.
they where all persucated by rome for being jews, then for judasizing or keeping sabbath.
now the 7 churches that Jesus is in the mist of, are eras not just in asia back then.
i believe we are in the 7 th church era,
small because which was allways a small flock of teachers.
so sorry i can not spell well, im learning lol
they where all persucated by rome for being jews, then for judasizing or keeping sabbath.
now the 7 churches that Jesus is in the mist of, are eras not just in asia back then.
i believe we are in the 7 th church era,
small because which was allways a small flock of teachers.
so sorry i can not spell well, im learning lol
It's a bit unfair to assume that none of the 12 introduced themselves as apostles for two main reasons:
1. Only three of the original 12 wrote books in the NT: Matthew, Peter, and John. Matthew's writing was a Gospel, therefore, he couldn't introduce himself as an apostle since he was writing about Jesus.
2. Peter also introduced himself in his two epistles as an apostle: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the Dispersion" (1Pet. 1:1) and "Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith" (2Pet. 1:1).
I've looked in the Bible a few times (lol) and discovered something: remember how Rom. 1 says that God created Creation in such a way that men are without excuse who don't believe that He exists? (In fact, He purposely made among each species, different personalities so that it is basically impossible to believe that since we make things by 'intelligent design', the more intricate things all around us were not made by intelligent design.) Okay, the same way He made the world, He wrote the Bible. But you can't see it (like some people can't see that a God out there created this world) if you do not look for it. "Not everything is written in the Bible, but everything is contained in it." That means that if you say, "Well, the Bible doesn't say I can't do this, so I can", you actually cancel out your reasoning (most people are apparently not aware of that). All this is to say that though only Peter and John of the original 12 apostles wrote books in the NT (six books all together), at least one of them introduces himself as an apostle twice. God allowed this to happen on purpose to cancel out the numerous reasonings that people would have concerning just that.
Peter didn't have to introduce himself as an apostle (because he was sent to the Jews whom he knew; Paul, on the other hand, was sent to Gentiles who didn't know him and wouldn't automatically receive him as he was a Jew, therefore, it was more sensible that he introduce himself especially with a word that the Greco-Roman world of that day would recognize/understand more readily: apostolos), but if someone, for instance, was to say that because Paul introduced himself that way all the time (except in Hebrews if he in fact was the author, another God thing in my opinion), it means he was not a true apostle, they have to wonder why Peter did it in both of his own writings. What I've found about the Bible is that instead of coming at it with weapons, trying to find something wrong or trying to discredit some teaching (e.g. the gifts of the Spirit being for today), especially Christians should come with tools-- digging tools. The truth is not all on the surface. The Bible covers every little thing and every single topic, but not all on the surface. So, though there are so many false apostles today telling everyone what they dream of being, that doesn't say anything against, for, or with the Bible. The Bible stands alone, and the Holy Spirit its only real (genuine, certified) Interpreter and Translator.
1. Only three of the original 12 wrote books in the NT: Matthew, Peter, and John. Matthew's writing was a Gospel, therefore, he couldn't introduce himself as an apostle since he was writing about Jesus.
2. Peter also introduced himself in his two epistles as an apostle: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the Dispersion" (1Pet. 1:1) and "Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith" (2Pet. 1:1).
I've looked in the Bible a few times (lol) and discovered something: remember how Rom. 1 says that God created Creation in such a way that men are without excuse who don't believe that He exists? (In fact, He purposely made among each species, different personalities so that it is basically impossible to believe that since we make things by 'intelligent design', the more intricate things all around us were not made by intelligent design.) Okay, the same way He made the world, He wrote the Bible. But you can't see it (like some people can't see that a God out there created this world) if you do not look for it. "Not everything is written in the Bible, but everything is contained in it." That means that if you say, "Well, the Bible doesn't say I can't do this, so I can", you actually cancel out your reasoning (most people are apparently not aware of that). All this is to say that though only Peter and John of the original 12 apostles wrote books in the NT (six books all together), at least one of them introduces himself as an apostle twice. God allowed this to happen on purpose to cancel out the numerous reasonings that people would have concerning just that.
Peter didn't have to introduce himself as an apostle (because he was sent to the Jews whom he knew; Paul, on the other hand, was sent to Gentiles who didn't know him and wouldn't automatically receive him as he was a Jew, therefore, it was more sensible that he introduce himself especially with a word that the Greco-Roman world of that day would recognize/understand more readily: apostolos), but if someone, for instance, was to say that because Paul introduced himself that way all the time (except in Hebrews if he in fact was the author, another God thing in my opinion), it means he was not a true apostle, they have to wonder why Peter did it in both of his own writings. What I've found about the Bible is that instead of coming at it with weapons, trying to find something wrong or trying to discredit some teaching (e.g. the gifts of the Spirit being for today), especially Christians should come with tools-- digging tools. The truth is not all on the surface. The Bible covers every little thing and every single topic, but not all on the surface. So, though there are so many false apostles today telling everyone what they dream of being, that doesn't say anything against, for, or with the Bible. The Bible stands alone, and the Holy Spirit its only real (genuine, certified) Interpreter and Translator.
You believe in pastors and teachers from Eph. 4:11, the very same passage that names apostles and prophets and evangelists. Do you think, and think about it if you dare, that you are readily accepting of the two ministries that are more passive because that is how our society is today? Is it possible that you cut out the three ministries, which happen to be named first in that list, because they have more to do with the miraculous or supernatural which so many don't believe in today? It's disturbing that unbelief runs so deep that you can take two ministries-- the two last ones named-- out of a passage that names five and cut out three specific ministries that happen to not sync with our western thinking today... yet you actually made reference to the passage that clearly says, "He gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists..." and then cut out all three of those for the two least in the group: "some pastors and teachers." Don't you think that that's disturbing?
It's like having five children and negating the first three for the last two. David's dad Jesse did that with him, you know, and David, the neglected of eight sons, turned out to be God's man. Ironic. The first three ministers are the spearhead on the spear and are the first to break ground and go into unreached areas and reach unreached people (among Christians too). You are talking about a spear without a point. Please explain to me where the Bible says that apostles, prophets, and evangelists were axed from a list that says all ministries in the list will continue until the Saints are perfected. If apostles are to be axed because the Bible is completed, why do we need pastors or teachers when Jesus made it clear that the Father was sending the Holy Spirit (not the pastors and teachers) to lead us into all truth and when John says, "The anointing [from the Holy Spirit within you] you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you." (Read 1Jn. 2:20, 26-27.) I have heard people say many times that because of the Bible, we don't need apostles and prophets (and by extension, if there was any integrity in them, evangelists, pastors, and teachers also-- no leaders), but I finally want to confront this errant belief and mindset. Please find for me in the Bible, OT or NT, where it says that apostles and prophets (and evangelists) would no longer be needed when the canon was completed? Where in the Bible does it ever talk about the canon being completed? The Bible has answered those questions for me already; I'd like to know what you have to say about them. We've sat in gutter Christianity (unmoving, stagnant Christianity) for way too many years, believing and claiming things that the Bible does not say. I want someone to start showing me from the Bible where they get their extra-biblical beliefs from, beginning right here with this topic.
It's like having five children and negating the first three for the last two. David's dad Jesse did that with him, you know, and David, the neglected of eight sons, turned out to be God's man. Ironic. The first three ministers are the spearhead on the spear and are the first to break ground and go into unreached areas and reach unreached people (among Christians too). You are talking about a spear without a point. Please explain to me where the Bible says that apostles, prophets, and evangelists were axed from a list that says all ministries in the list will continue until the Saints are perfected. If apostles are to be axed because the Bible is completed, why do we need pastors or teachers when Jesus made it clear that the Father was sending the Holy Spirit (not the pastors and teachers) to lead us into all truth and when John says, "The anointing [from the Holy Spirit within you] you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you." (Read 1Jn. 2:20, 26-27.) I have heard people say many times that because of the Bible, we don't need apostles and prophets (and by extension, if there was any integrity in them, evangelists, pastors, and teachers also-- no leaders), but I finally want to confront this errant belief and mindset. Please find for me in the Bible, OT or NT, where it says that apostles and prophets (and evangelists) would no longer be needed when the canon was completed? Where in the Bible does it ever talk about the canon being completed? The Bible has answered those questions for me already; I'd like to know what you have to say about them. We've sat in gutter Christianity (unmoving, stagnant Christianity) for way too many years, believing and claiming things that the Bible does not say. I want someone to start showing me from the Bible where they get their extra-biblical beliefs from, beginning right here with this topic.
Uhm... people are prophesying, and performing signs and wonders, they're called the gifts of the Holy Spirit and there's been no gap. Just lots of enhancing, falsifying, confusion, and denial. That's called satan muddying the waters so that others will think there's no true gift. That's what you percieve as a gap, but no it hasn't been stopped, just buried. But it will rise to prominance once again in the end, which you percieve as starting up again. It's not a startup it's a magnification.
God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. I just don't understand why people choose to opt out of the today part of the plan.