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P
I thank God that most people are familiar enough with scriptures to know you haven't a clue what you are saying sir. You are a false teacher.
(Mar 1:9)
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
(Mar 1:10)
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
WATER! no works! Just FAITH
(Joh 3:5)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water andofthe Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
WATER! No works, just FAITH
(Act 8:35)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
(Act 8:39)
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(Heb 10:22)
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(1Pe 3:20)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:21)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(1Jn 5:6)
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
NOW... you listed a bunch of pointless verses to prove a false idea. Real isogetical there... I listed some of the Word showing where WATER IS BAPTISM and important to observe as much also is Receiving the Holy Spirit and Drinking the Blood of Christ.
Conclusion. A willful and malevolent doctrine designed to cause a person to become hard in heart toward baptism, preventing their entrance into the Kingdom of God, substituting man made doctrines that fly blatantly in the face of the plain clear Word of God and examples neatly and conclusively provided. Bottom line, it is a doctrine of the devil because it messes with salvation, and it is also only pushed by those who are repelled at the thought of submitting to dying to self, dying in Christ, and showing the outward evidence of that in the one appointed way.
Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the Holy Spirit and eternal life!
(Mar 1:9)
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
(Mar 1:10)
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
WATER! no works! Just FAITH
(Joh 3:5)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water andofthe Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
WATER! No works, just FAITH
(Act 8:35)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
(Act 8:39)
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(Heb 10:22)
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(1Pe 3:20)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:21)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(1Jn 5:6)
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
NOW... you listed a bunch of pointless verses to prove a false idea. Real isogetical there... I listed some of the Word showing where WATER IS BAPTISM and important to observe as much also is Receiving the Holy Spirit and Drinking the Blood of Christ.
Conclusion. A willful and malevolent doctrine designed to cause a person to become hard in heart toward baptism, preventing their entrance into the Kingdom of God, substituting man made doctrines that fly blatantly in the face of the plain clear Word of God and examples neatly and conclusively provided. Bottom line, it is a doctrine of the devil because it messes with salvation, and it is also only pushed by those who are repelled at the thought of submitting to dying to self, dying in Christ, and showing the outward evidence of that in the one appointed way.
Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the Holy Spirit and eternal life!
True religions neither rules-based nor ritual-based.
True religion is a personal relationship with God
through Jesus Christ Alone..
Two things that all religions hold are;
that humanity is somehow separated from God
and needs to be reconciled to Him.
False religion seeks to solve this problem by
observing rules and rituals. I will be Specific "water baptism"
True religion solves the problem by recognizing that
ONLY God could rectify the separation,
and that He has done so.
True religion recognizes the following:
1. We have all sinned and are therefore separated
from God (Romans 3:23).
2. If not rectified, the just penalty for sin is death and eternal separation
from God after death (Romans 6:23).
3. God came to us in the Person of Jesus Christ and died in our place, taking the punishment that we deserve, and rose from the dead to demonstrate that His death was a sufficient sacrifice
(Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
4. If we receive Jesus as the Savior,
TRUSTING His death as the full payment for our sins,
we are forgiven,
saved,
redeemed,
reconciled,
and justified with God
(John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:8-9).
True religion does have rules and rituals,
but there is a crucial difference.
In true religion,
the rules and rituals are observed out of Gratitude
for the Salvation God has provided –
NOT in an effort to obtain that salvation.
True religion, which is Biblical Christianity,
has rules to obey (do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not lie, etc.)
And rituals to observe (water baptism by immersion and the Lord’s Supper / Communion).
Observance of these rules and rituals is not what makes a person right with God.
Rather, these rules and rituals are the RESULT of the relationship with God,
HOW ?????
by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ Alone as the Savior.
Can NOT ADD "water baptism" as a Requirement for Ones Salvation
False religion is doing things (rules and rituals)
Like "water baptism"
in order to TRY to earn God’s favor.
True religion is receiving Jesus Christ as Savior
and thereby having a right relationship with God –
It is a FREE GIFT
For one to choose to Accept or Reject Gods GIFT....
Romans 6
[h=3]Slaves to Righteousness[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace?
By no means! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves
to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—
whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death,
or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [SUP]
17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin,
you have come to obey from your heart the pattern
of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations.
Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity
and to ever-increasing wickedness,
so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of?
Those things result in death!
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But now that you have been set free from sin
and have become slaves of God,
the benefit you reap leads to holiness,
and the result is eternal life. [SUP]
23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death,
but the GIFT of God is eternal life
in[SUP] [/SUP]Christ Jesus our Lord.
And then WE do things (rules and rituals)
out of love for God and desire to grow closer to Him.
So, Bride..... If God knows your HEART That you are a sinner
in need of a SAVIOR ......
Praying to HIM with a SINCERE REPENTANCE HEART
Putting your TRUST (Belief) and your FAITH
That HE did what HE said that HE Did
That HE was Who HE said that HE IS
But you are saying that HE does Not Believe you
UNTIL you are "water baptized"
No Need for you to be "water baptized"
If you have Not put your Trust and Faith ALONE
In Jesus Christ as the Sacrificial Lamb
WHO Died on the Cross For ALL SINS
SO, You are Saying That YOU can DO Something
Like "water baptism"
That Makes you Deserve Salvation ????????
Bride
Which Religion do you have????
P
PaceMaker:
I am so sick of people bringing up the thief on the cross as part of their argument against water baptism. Water baptism in Jesus Name was not in effect until Christ died. All the way up til He (Christ) took his last human breath on earth we were under the Old Covenant or some would say Old Testament. Water baptism is New Testament salvation.
Hebrews 9: 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
And as far as Cornelius is concerned in Act 10 keep reading the rest of the scripture
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Why on earth would baptism be commanded to be done if not necessary.
I am so sick of people bringing up the thief on the cross as part of their argument against water baptism. Water baptism in Jesus Name was not in effect until Christ died. All the way up til He (Christ) took his last human breath on earth we were under the Old Covenant or some would say Old Testament. Water baptism is New Testament salvation.
Hebrews 9: 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
And as far as Cornelius is concerned in Act 10 keep reading the rest of the scripture
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Why on earth would baptism be commanded to be done if not necessary.
Water baptism in Jesus Name was not in effect until Christ died.
All the way up til He (Christ) took his last human breath on earth
we were under the Old Covenant
or some would say Old Testament.
Water baptism is New Testament salvation.
This Scripture CONTRADICTS your statement about the Thief dying before Jesus..
John 19:32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first,
and of the other who had been crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead,
they did not break his legs.
34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear,
and at once there came out blood and water.
Well what are you going to say Now ????Are you saying that you Keep ALL Commands ?????
What is your Defination of the word GIFT ?????
What is your Defination of the word GRACE????
Please be sure to Highlite the word "water baptism"
when or IF you give your Definition..
PACEMAKER In reply to post #788You said..
Romans 3:
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ
to all who believe.
I REPLY.. Apart from the LAW!
The Mosaic LAW of Circumcision!!
>>> Verse #20>>> READ IT 20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
WORKS OF THE LAW!!!! NOT Good works we are to do GOOD WORKS!
PACEMAKER Do you see it.... ? Romans 3 is NOTHING about "Good works" it is telling you "CIRCUMCISION" will not save you! Read verse # 20 again.... Question why did you post # 21 KNOWING verse 20 PROVES YOU WRONG!!!!
Romans 3:
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ
to all who believe.
I REPLY.. Apart from the LAW!
The Mosaic LAW of Circumcision!!
>>> Verse #20>>> READ IT 20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
WORKS OF THE LAW!!!! NOT Good works we are to do GOOD WORKS!
PACEMAKER Do you see it.... ? Romans 3 is NOTHING about "Good works" it is telling you "CIRCUMCISION" will not save you! Read verse # 20 again.... Question why did you post # 21 KNOWING verse 20 PROVES YOU WRONG!!!!
P
PACEMAKER In reply to post #788You said..
Romans 3:
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ
to all who believe.
I REPLY.. Apart from the LAW!
The Mosaic LAW of Circumcision!!
>>> Verse #20>>> READ IT 20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
WORKS OF THE LAW!!!! NOT Good works we are to do GOOD WORKS!
PACEMAKER Do you see it.... ? Romans 3 is NOTHING about "Good works" it is telling you "CIRCUMCISION" will not save you! Read verse # 20 again.... Question why did you post # 21 KNOWING verse 20 PROVES YOU WRONG!!!!
Romans 3:
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ
to all who believe.
I REPLY.. Apart from the LAW!
The Mosaic LAW of Circumcision!!
>>> Verse #20>>> READ IT 20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
WORKS OF THE LAW!!!! NOT Good works we are to do GOOD WORKS!
PACEMAKER Do you see it.... ? Romans 3 is NOTHING about "Good works" it is telling you "CIRCUMCISION" will not save you! Read verse # 20 again.... Question why did you post # 21 KNOWING verse 20 PROVES YOU WRONG!!!!
This topic is on "water baptism" as a Requirement for ones Salvation
And it's Power to wash Away Sins.......
And you are talking about The Mosaic LAW of Circumcision!! ??????
Now this is what Scriptures say NOT ME
Are You going to say that they are Wrong ???
[SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith
in Jesus Christ
to all who believe.
Where is the word "water baptism" ?????
Just what Power does your "water baptism" have
If Jesus Christ had NOT
PAID IT ALL
ALL to HIM I OWE.....
But you say ALL I Owe
AND I Can DO "water baptism " Also
To Deserve your Salvation ???
How Many Commands can you Keep
to Deserve Salvation ????
By Chance ; If you were to fall short by Not Doing " a Few Commands"
Would you be going to hell??????
T
Grace or the Grace of God is unmerited favor from God toward us we don't deserve yet He continues to pour it out.
Gift or Gift of God is Jehovah of the Old Testament stepping out of eternity and into time in the form of a man Christ Jesus and shedding His blood on the cross for all mankind and also gift refers to eternal life given to all who believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives.
These are the definitions you asked for but solves nothing for your argument.
James 4 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Once you come to the knowledge of water baptism as something that ought to be done as good and you refuse to do it to you it is sin. And no sin will enter Heaven.
Gift or Gift of God is Jehovah of the Old Testament stepping out of eternity and into time in the form of a man Christ Jesus and shedding His blood on the cross for all mankind and also gift refers to eternal life given to all who believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives.
These are the definitions you asked for but solves nothing for your argument.
James 4 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Once you come to the knowledge of water baptism as something that ought to be done as good and you refuse to do it to you it is sin. And no sin will enter Heaven.
P
I thank God that most people are familiar enough with scriptures to know you haven't a clue what you are saying sir. You are a false teacher.
(Mar 1:9)
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
(Mar 1:10)
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
WATER! no works! Just FAITH
(Joh 3:5)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water andofthe Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
WATER! No works, just FAITH
(Act 8:35)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
(Act 8:39)
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(Heb 10:22)
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(1Pe 3:20)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:21)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(1Jn 5:6)
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
NOW... you listed a bunch of pointless verses to prove a false idea. Real isogetical there... I listed some of the Word showing where WATER IS BAPTISM and important to observe as much also is Receiving the Holy Spirit and Drinking the Blood of Christ.
Conclusion. A willful and malevolent doctrine designed to cause a person to become hard in heart toward baptism, preventing their entrance into the Kingdom of God, substituting man made doctrines that fly blatantly in the face of the plain clear Word of God and examples neatly and conclusively provided. Bottom line, it is a doctrine of the devil because it messes with salvation, and it is also only pushed by those who are repelled at the thought of submitting to dying to self, dying in Christ, and showing the outward evidence of that in the one appointed way.
Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the Holy Spirit and eternal life!
(Mar 1:9)
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
(Mar 1:10)
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
WATER! no works! Just FAITH
(Joh 3:5)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water andofthe Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
WATER! No works, just FAITH
(Act 8:35)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
(Act 8:39)
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(Heb 10:22)
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(1Pe 3:20)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:21)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
WATER! no works, just FAITH
(1Jn 5:6)
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
WATER! no works, just FAITH
NOW... you listed a bunch of pointless verses to prove a false idea. Real isogetical there... I listed some of the Word showing where WATER IS BAPTISM and important to observe as much also is Receiving the Holy Spirit and Drinking the Blood of Christ.
Conclusion. A willful and malevolent doctrine designed to cause a person to become hard in heart toward baptism, preventing their entrance into the Kingdom of God, substituting man made doctrines that fly blatantly in the face of the plain clear Word of God and examples neatly and conclusively provided. Bottom line, it is a doctrine of the devil because it messes with salvation, and it is also only pushed by those who are repelled at the thought of submitting to dying to self, dying in Christ, and showing the outward evidence of that in the one appointed way.
Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the Holy Spirit and eternal life!
Are you sure you want to use it to Try to prove your belief on"water baptism"
(1Pe 3:20)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
God Saved the 8 people in the boat....
The people outside in the "water' All Died None Saved...
There is NO Power in Any "water"
So, you are saying that the water that comes from your local river;
goes to your local water treatment plant to be cleaned and sanitized;
Flows in water pipes to your local church;
Fill up the Baptistry
O, don't forget to Heat the "water"
Question?? Is it "Holy Water" Is there "POWER in The Water" ???
Then Two sinners get in the "water"
Bride, Before you go under the "water"
Do you Have to had Prayed to Jesus Christ in Repentance ;
asking for HIM to Forgive you of your sins;
And that you are putting your Faith and Trust in HIM
for the Sacrifice Once and for All that HE DID on the old rugged cross ,
And that that you Believe with ALL your Heart that HE is Gods Son
And with The Holy Spirits help; you are willing to start a New Life in Christ.
Or does GOD not Believe your Sincere Repentance and Belief in HIM
until you are "water baptized" ???
So this is the "power water"
that you are putting your faith and trust in
Something that you and another person does...
Jesus Paid it ALL ALL to HIM I OWE
I do Not deserve Salvation and nether do any of us.
Our Price for ALL our sins has already been Paid IN FULL
Nailed to the Cross
Paul tells us in Romans 4:5,
"But to the one who does not work,
but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,
his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
and again in Romans 5:1,
"therefore having been justified by faith,
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Where is the word "water baptism" ????????
These two veres along with Hundreds more Contradict
your beliefs on "water baptism"
P
Grace or the Grace of God is unmerited favor from God toward us we don't deserve yet He continues to pour it out.
Gift or Gift of God is Jehovah of the Old Testament stepping out of eternity and into time in the form of a man Christ Jesus and shedding His blood on the cross for all mankind and also gift refers to eternal life given to all who believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives.
These are the definitions you asked for but solves nothing for your argument.
James 4 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Once you come to the knowledge of water baptism as something that ought to be done as good and you refuse to do it to you it is sin. And no sin will enter Heaven.
Gift or Gift of God is Jehovah of the Old Testament stepping out of eternity and into time in the form of a man Christ Jesus and shedding His blood on the cross for all mankind and also gift refers to eternal life given to all who believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives.
These are the definitions you asked for but solves nothing for your argument.
James 4 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Once you come to the knowledge of water baptism as something that ought to be done as good and you refuse to do it to you it is sin. And no sin will enter Heaven.
According to YOUR definitions of Gift and Grace
And the Verse below;
The Scriptures say that "water baptism"
Is NOT a Requirement for ones Salvation..
[h=1]Ephesians 2:8-9 New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by GRACE you have been saved,
through faith—
and this is not from yourselves,
it is the GIFT of God—
[SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works,
so that no one can boast.
Tyler Your definition of GRACE is unmerited favor from God toward us we don't deserve
And GIFT refers to eternal life given to all who believe
on Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives.
If you Honestly Believe your Definition you Quoted
Then ; how can you say that one Must DO Something
Like "water baptism" to Recieve Salvation
And Forgiveness of Sins ????
Have you replied to Post # 803 ???
P
Grace or the Grace of God is unmerited favor from God toward us we don't deserve yet He continues to pour it out.
Gift or Gift of God is Jehovah of the Old Testament stepping out of eternity and into time in the form of a man Christ Jesus and shedding His blood on the cross for all mankind and also gift refers to eternal life given to all who believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives.
These are the definitions you asked for but solves nothing for your argument.
James 4 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Once you come to the knowledge of water baptism as something that ought to be done as good and you refuse to do it to you it is sin. And no sin will enter Heaven.
Gift or Gift of God is Jehovah of the Old Testament stepping out of eternity and into time in the form of a man Christ Jesus and shedding His blood on the cross for all mankind and also gift refers to eternal life given to all who believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives.
These are the definitions you asked for but solves nothing for your argument.
James 4 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Once you come to the knowledge of water baptism as something that ought to be done as good and you refuse to do it to you it is sin. And no sin will enter Heaven.
It’s also important to understand that believers
will continue to sin,
although sin should have less and less of a hold on us
as we mature in Christ,
and the incidence of sinning should continue to lessen throughout our lives.
When we do sin,
we should confess it to God,
asking Him to forgive us and to restore
our intimate fellowship with Him.
We have the promise that
“he is faithful and just
and will forgive us our sins
and purify us from all unrighteousness”
(1 John 1:9).
Nowhere does the Bible say we must
be re baptized to be forgiven.
If God can Purify us From ALL UN RIGHTEOUSNESS
With OUT being Re “water baptized”
Then Why would we have to be “water baptized”
in the first place for Forgiveness of our Sins ????
IF---Because GOD has the POWER to Forgive..
Tylerbones1313.. you said " And no sin will enter Heaven."
It’s also important to understand that believers
will continue to sin,
although sin should have less and less of a hold on us
as we mature in Christ,
and the incidence of sinning should continue to lessen throughout our lives.
When we do sin,
we should confess it to God,
asking Him to forgive us and to restore
our intimate fellowship with Him.
We have the promise that
“he is faithful and just
and will forgive us our sins
and purify us from all unrighteousness”
(1 John 1:9).
Nowhere does the Bible say we must
be re baptized to be forgiven.
If God can Purify us From ALL UN RIGHTEOUSNESS
With OUT being Re “water baptized”
Then Why would we have to be “water baptized”
in the first place for Forgiveness of our Sins ????
IF---Because GOD has the POWER to Forgive..
It’s also important to understand that believers
will continue to sin,
although sin should have less and less of a hold on us
as we mature in Christ,
and the incidence of sinning should continue to lessen throughout our lives.
When we do sin,
we should confess it to God,
asking Him to forgive us and to restore
our intimate fellowship with Him.
We have the promise that
“he is faithful and just
and will forgive us our sins
and purify us from all unrighteousness”
(1 John 1:9).
Nowhere does the Bible say we must
be re baptized to be forgiven.
If God can Purify us From ALL UN RIGHTEOUSNESS
With OUT being Re “water baptized”
Then Why would we have to be “water baptized”
in the first place for Forgiveness of our Sins ????
IF---Because GOD has the POWER to Forgive..
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Dogknox. I do Not really know what you are trying to say
This topic is on "water baptism" as a Requirement for ones Salvation
And it's Power to wash Away Sins.......
And you are talking about The Mosaic LAW of Circumcision!! ??????
Now this is what Scriptures say NOT ME
Are You going to say that they are Wrong ???
[SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith
in Jesus Christ
to all who believe.
Where is the word "water baptism" ?????
Just what Power does your "water baptism" have
If Jesus Christ had NOT
PAID IT ALL
ALL to HIM I OWE.....
But you say ALL I Owe
AND I Can DO "water baptism " Also
To Deserve your Salvation ???
How Many Commands can you Keep
to Deserve Salvation ????
By Chance ; If you were to fall short by Not Doing " a Few Commands"
Would you be going to hell??????
This topic is on "water baptism" as a Requirement for ones Salvation
And it's Power to wash Away Sins.......
And you are talking about The Mosaic LAW of Circumcision!! ??????
Now this is what Scriptures say NOT ME
Are You going to say that they are Wrong ???
[SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith
in Jesus Christ
to all who believe.
Where is the word "water baptism" ?????
Just what Power does your "water baptism" have
If Jesus Christ had NOT
PAID IT ALL
ALL to HIM I OWE.....
But you say ALL I Owe
AND I Can DO "water baptism " Also
To Deserve your Salvation ???
How Many Commands can you Keep
to Deserve Salvation ????
By Chance ; If you were to fall short by Not Doing " a Few Commands"
Would you be going to hell??????
I reply: NO the topic of the thread is about; "Baptism symbol only"?
You ASK "I am talking about the Mosaic Law of Circumcision"! How come?
I Reply: YES..... I am because: You point to EPHESIANS 2 as proof text of Faith ALONE saves!!!
Ephesians 2 is saying NOTHING ABOUT "Faith ALONE SAVES!!!!" It is saying, you will NOT be saved by CIRCUMCISION, it is saying Circumcision is a WORKS of the LAW! Ephesians 2 is saying; we are to do "GOOD WORKS!"
There is NO SCRIPTURES that say: "Faith >>ALONE<< saves!" NONE!!!
Saying only faith saves is rejecting LOVE!!!!!
PACEMAKER God is LOVE; Faith without LOVE is God-LESS!
Saying the water of the WOMB is the water Jesus is telling Nicodemus he must FIRST be born before he can be re-born>>>> Well DUH!!! Makes NO SENSE!!
You said...
[SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith
in Jesus Christ
to all who believe.
Where is the word "water baptism" ?????
I reply: YES to all who BELIEVE they are saved.... You cannot believe and sit on your hands!!
BELIEVERS have ACTIONS!!!! The Goats in the "Sheep & Goats" story (Matthew 25) have Faith ALONE they are NOT believers!
The Sheep go to heaven because they have ACTIONS of the HEART!! They GIVE to Jesus "GIVING is NOT WORKING!!
QUESTION if you GIVE a GIFT do you say as it is being unwrapped "You owe me the cost of my GIFT?" NO!!!
If you work for a wage do you get payed!? YES!!!
If you do GOOD WORKS do you expect payment? NO!!
Jesus said to the Sheep "You GAVE ME Water"! They GAVE they did NOT work their way into heaven they LOVED their way in with "Good Works!"
The Goats had NO LOVE these Protestants have "Faith ALONE" no good works, no LOVE! They go to damnation!
PACEMAKER In reply to post #788You said..
Romans 3:
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ
to all who believe.
I REPLY.. Apart from the LAW!
The Mosaic LAW of Circumcision!!
>>> Verse #20>>> READ IT 20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
WORKS OF THE LAW!!!! NOT Good works we are to do GOOD WORKS!
PACEMAKER Do you see it.... ? Romans 3 is NOTHING about "Good works" it is telling you "CIRCUMCISION" will not save you! Read verse # 20 again.... Question why did you post # 21 KNOWING verse 20 PROVES YOU WRONG!!!!
Romans 3:
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ
to all who believe.
I REPLY.. Apart from the LAW!
The Mosaic LAW of Circumcision!!
>>> Verse #20>>> READ IT 20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
WORKS OF THE LAW!!!! NOT Good works we are to do GOOD WORKS!
PACEMAKER Do you see it.... ? Romans 3 is NOTHING about "Good works" it is telling you "CIRCUMCISION" will not save you! Read verse # 20 again.... Question why did you post # 21 KNOWING verse 20 PROVES YOU WRONG!!!!
You can't limit the LAW to circumcision.
Hosea 8 "12 I wrote for him the ten thousand things of my law; . . . ."
No works can save, whether works of the Law of any other kind of good works. The Ephesians were predominately Gentiles:
Eph 2:
:2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
(by grace ye have been saved),
6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them. 11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh,"
Now indeed, READ IT. Romans 3 argues that there is none righteous, neither of Jew nor of Gentile. The reason why no good works can save, and the reason why the works of the Law cannot save, is that no one before salvation has any good works at all. It is not just submitting to circumcision (which is hardly a good work anyway by a baby), it is that no one ever obeyed Moses law -- none righteous; all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
. . .
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: 20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
BTW, you may compare Romans 7 where Paul says he was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin REVIVED & I died . . . I am carnal, sold under sin!
The Sheep & Goat Judgment has been brought up, apparently trying to prove that salvation is by works instead of by faith alone (on man's part) as if all the great number of passages that offer salvation by faith/belief alone should be ignored as false advertising.
I once thought that the Sheep & Goat Judgment was the paradigm on which to base doctrine of who goes to Heaven.
1) The S & G Judgment is about judgment, not salvation. There is nothing in it about a sinner crying out "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trusting a Savior to save him. Judgment is by works; salvation is by grace through faith -- 2 different doctrines.
2) The S & G Judgment is part of the Olivet Discourse, an eschatological discourse describing the Tribulation of Israel (no Church mentioned), just Israel & Gentiles. This judgment happens when Christ returns to earth to take charge at the end of the Tribulation. It is distinct from the Bema Judgment Seat of Christ (believers' judgment) & the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 where the lost are judged for their works, followed by the Lake of Fire.
3) There are 3 groups in the S & G Judgment: Sheep, Goats, & "Christ's Brethren. The Sheep & Goats are judged for how they treated Christ's brethren when they were in Tribulation.
4) The S & G Judgment has nothing to do either with the Church or those who die today.
Salvation is not in Mat 25; look for passages on salvation if you want to opine on salvation.
I once thought that the Sheep & Goat Judgment was the paradigm on which to base doctrine of who goes to Heaven.
1) The S & G Judgment is about judgment, not salvation. There is nothing in it about a sinner crying out "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trusting a Savior to save him. Judgment is by works; salvation is by grace through faith -- 2 different doctrines.
2) The S & G Judgment is part of the Olivet Discourse, an eschatological discourse describing the Tribulation of Israel (no Church mentioned), just Israel & Gentiles. This judgment happens when Christ returns to earth to take charge at the end of the Tribulation. It is distinct from the Bema Judgment Seat of Christ (believers' judgment) & the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 where the lost are judged for their works, followed by the Lake of Fire.
3) There are 3 groups in the S & G Judgment: Sheep, Goats, & "Christ's Brethren. The Sheep & Goats are judged for how they treated Christ's brethren when they were in Tribulation.
4) The S & G Judgment has nothing to do either with the Church or those who die today.
Salvation is not in Mat 25; look for passages on salvation if you want to opine on salvation.
There seems to be a digression on this thread about works & the law.
Scripture is clear that no works save & especially the works of the Law, which cannot be limited to the issue of circumcision (usually done to babies).
I give my opinion, having read the Bible many, many times past counting. Consider this at least as a hypothesis:
When Paul speaks of the Law in a negative sense,
even promoting & stirring up sin,
no good for salvation, and
as a means of moral frustration to bring the self-righteous sinner to realize his need of salvation,
Paul's argument does not depend on which law is meant.
The "law" as a moral frustrater, a tutor to bring us to Christ, could be any of the following:
1) The Law of Moses,
2) Moral principles that come from conscience,
3) The Teachings of Jesus (Sermon on the Mount, etc.),
4) Principles & commandments addressed to the Church in the epistles.
5) General Teaching in the OT, as in Psalms, Proverbs, & the prophets.
Paul's argument doesn't depend upon which "law" of those 5, is meant.
The fact is that whatever Law of God the unregenerate sinner is confronted with (in whatever form),
the unsaved man reacts to want not to do it.
The Law is like a sign that says, "Don't spit here" in a public place. Moreover, the Christian has this thing called "The Flesh," The Old Man, his old nature which similarly reacts to God's Law. Romans 7 is a good illustration of this.
I think if you are honest with yourself, you will admit this is true: Whenever you try to be good,
an opposing principle is at once evoked. If you are saved, the possibility of losing is great. And if you are not saved, you always lose -- though you may pretend like a Pharisee that you are a good boy.
The following is written of the carnal Christian; but if the carnal Christian loses this game, how much more the unregenerate man or the moralistic Pharisee:
I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: 8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. 9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; 10 and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death: 11 for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.
12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good. 13 Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; — that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.
16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. 19 For
the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. 20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. 21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Law is a tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith & give up the self-righteous notion that we are good enough to be declared righteous by works. How many times will a dolt bolt his head against his internal goat, until it dawns on him that he must have a Savior from this frustration, a Savior who provides a new birth, a recreation, & the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Who can enable Him to produce the fruit of the Spirit, love joy peace, etc.?
Scripture is clear that no works save & especially the works of the Law, which cannot be limited to the issue of circumcision (usually done to babies).
I give my opinion, having read the Bible many, many times past counting. Consider this at least as a hypothesis:
When Paul speaks of the Law in a negative sense,
even promoting & stirring up sin,
no good for salvation, and
as a means of moral frustration to bring the self-righteous sinner to realize his need of salvation,
Paul's argument does not depend on which law is meant.
The "law" as a moral frustrater, a tutor to bring us to Christ, could be any of the following:
1) The Law of Moses,
2) Moral principles that come from conscience,
3) The Teachings of Jesus (Sermon on the Mount, etc.),
4) Principles & commandments addressed to the Church in the epistles.
5) General Teaching in the OT, as in Psalms, Proverbs, & the prophets.
Paul's argument doesn't depend upon which "law" of those 5, is meant.
The fact is that whatever Law of God the unregenerate sinner is confronted with (in whatever form),
the unsaved man reacts to want not to do it.
The Law is like a sign that says, "Don't spit here" in a public place. Moreover, the Christian has this thing called "The Flesh," The Old Man, his old nature which similarly reacts to God's Law. Romans 7 is a good illustration of this.
I think if you are honest with yourself, you will admit this is true: Whenever you try to be good,
an opposing principle is at once evoked. If you are saved, the possibility of losing is great. And if you are not saved, you always lose -- though you may pretend like a Pharisee that you are a good boy.
The following is written of the carnal Christian; but if the carnal Christian loses this game, how much more the unregenerate man or the moralistic Pharisee:
I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: 8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. 9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; 10 and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death: 11 for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.
12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good. 13 Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; — that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.
16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. 19 For
the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. 20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. 21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Law is a tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith & give up the self-righteous notion that we are good enough to be declared righteous by works. How many times will a dolt bolt his head against his internal goat, until it dawns on him that he must have a Savior from this frustration, a Savior who provides a new birth, a recreation, & the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Who can enable Him to produce the fruit of the Spirit, love joy peace, etc.?
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Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized. And wash away your sins (by) having called on the name of the Lord.
That is a statement by Ananaias. Scripture does not say that he was prophesying, uttering God's word, either.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized. And wash away your sins (by) having called on the name of the Lord.
That is a statement by Ananaias. Scripture does not say that he was prophesying, uttering God's word, either.
Acts 15:8
And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 26:18b
that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
Great text. It is the blood that washes away our sins, not water.
he came by water and blood is it not fitting fo us also...
[SUP]6 [/SUP]This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
The Sheep & Goat Judgment has been brought up, apparently trying to prove that salvation is by works instead of by faith alone (on man's part) as if all the great number of passages that offer salvation by faith/belief alone should be ignored as false advertising.
I once thought that the Sheep & Goat Judgment was the paradigm on which to base doctrine of who goes to Heaven.
1) The S & G Judgment is about judgment, not salvation. There is nothing in it about a sinner crying out "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trusting a Savior to save him. Judgment is by works; salvation is by grace through faith -- 2 different doctrines.
2) The S & G Judgment is part of the Olivet Discourse, an eschatological discourse describing the Tribulation of Israel (no Church mentioned), just Israel & Gentiles. This judgment happens when Christ returns to earth to take charge at the end of the Tribulation. It is distinct from the Bema Judgment Seat of Christ (believers' judgment) & the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 where the lost are judged for their works, followed by the Lake of Fire.
3) There are 3 groups in the S & G Judgment: Sheep, Goats, & "Christ's Brethren. The Sheep & Goats are judged for how they treated Christ's brethren when they were in Tribulation.
4) The S & G Judgment has nothing to do either with the Church or those who die today.
Salvation is not in Mat 25; look for passages on salvation if you want to opine on salvation.
I once thought that the Sheep & Goat Judgment was the paradigm on which to base doctrine of who goes to Heaven.
1) The S & G Judgment is about judgment, not salvation. There is nothing in it about a sinner crying out "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trusting a Savior to save him. Judgment is by works; salvation is by grace through faith -- 2 different doctrines.
2) The S & G Judgment is part of the Olivet Discourse, an eschatological discourse describing the Tribulation of Israel (no Church mentioned), just Israel & Gentiles. This judgment happens when Christ returns to earth to take charge at the end of the Tribulation. It is distinct from the Bema Judgment Seat of Christ (believers' judgment) & the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 where the lost are judged for their works, followed by the Lake of Fire.
3) There are 3 groups in the S & G Judgment: Sheep, Goats, & "Christ's Brethren. The Sheep & Goats are judged for how they treated Christ's brethren when they were in Tribulation.
4) The S & G Judgment has nothing to do either with the Church or those who die today.
Salvation is not in Mat 25; look for passages on salvation if you want to opine on salvation.
Fact: The S & G Judgement starts with Jesus JUDGING man at the end of time!
His Judgement is solely based on the ACTIONS or INACTION of the S & G!
FACT: to be RIGHTEOUS a person must "DO RIGHT"! The Sheep are declared RIGHTEOUS so they enter heaven!
1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
"DOING RIGHT" SAVES!!!
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
Atwood The RIGHTEOUS enter heaven because they DO right, they DO NOT have Faith ALONE!
The Sheep did not even know they were doing for Jesus.. They CANNOT be accused of WORKING their way into heaven!
The Goats have "Faith ALONE" they also address Jesus as LORD just as the Sheep! THE ONLY....
Atwood The only difference between the S & G is their actions/In actions!
The Sheep have ACTIONS plus faith they go to heaven!
The Protestant Goats have "Faith ALONE" NO ACTIONS they are condemned!
LOOK at Jesus' words...
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
FACT: There is NO scriptures that say "Faith ALONE saves"!
The teaching of "Faith ALONE saves" was a idea coming in the sixteen century!
M
Water baptism clearly is a symbol, a picture of Christ's death, burial, & resurrection. It should be a confession that one believes in Christ as Savior & trusts His atonement.
Do you really think that when a man is dipped down into water & raised out of the water that is not a picture of Christ's atoning death & resurrection?
Now if you confuse baptism with sprinkling, you may have a problem. But the word does not mean "sprinkle."
Do you really think that when a man is dipped down into water & raised out of the water that is not a picture of Christ's atoning death & resurrection?
Now if you confuse baptism with sprinkling, you may have a problem. But the word does not mean "sprinkle."
M
No takers? Well, that's OK. He wasn't water baptized, or didn't find that worthy of mention.
Saul (Paul) repented on the Damascus road, encountered Jesus there, got through the immediate effects of that encounter (eyes blinded by scales, healed), then went into seclusion to hear from the Lord more.
In his epistles he makes it clear he didn't include water baptism as a significant part of his ministry. Why?
Saul (Paul) repented on the Damascus road, encountered Jesus there, got through the immediate effects of that encounter (eyes blinded by scales, healed), then went into seclusion to hear from the Lord more.
In his epistles he makes it clear he didn't include water baptism as a significant part of his ministry. Why?
I was responding to the original request, which was to quote scripture that says baptism is a symbol. It would help if you understood that. Your opinion (and mine as well) may be that immersion in water depicts the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but you'll have a hard time finding scripture that says that. Yes, there are scriptures that give reference to baptism and its association with Christ's death, burial and resurrection, but none that say that's what it is.
Of course immersion is a symbol, an antitupon (it has been quoted now how many times???), obviously of the death, burial, & resurrection of Christ. Believe it or absurdly reject it at your own peril. I may as well argue that the sky is blue.
And it is obvious that the water and being dunked in it is symbolic -- it never saves, and a ton of scripture (already repetitively posted) says that the only thing that man has to do is to believe; moreover, it is clear that it is Christ's atonement that saved from God's side of the process.
The only condition put to man for his salvation is belief/faith in the Savior (not "chance-giver").
Once saved, the only condition of salvation is the power of God! Water is not any part of it at any stage.
:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
(by grace have ye been saved),
6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of
his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for
by grace have ye been saved
through faith;
and that not of yourselves, it is
the gift of God;
not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
for good works,
which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Water immersion is a human work; & human works do not save.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Beware of making water into an idol. Trusting water is idolatrous.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance
incorruptible, and
undefiled, and
that fadeth not away,
reserved in heaven for you, 5 who
by the power of God are guarded
through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Fact: [ sic, Falsehood] The S & G Judgement starts with Jesus JUDGING man at the end of time!
"End of Time" is no where mentioned in the S & G judgment, nor to my knowledge anywhere is scripture. The Consummation of the age is mentioned, but not end of time in the Olivet Discourse. "Time shall be no more" -- out of context, means "There shall be no more delay," Check your Greek if you disagree.
His Judgement is solely based on the ACTIONS or INACTION of the S & G!
"DOING RIGHT" SAVES!!![/quote]
"For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works."
Using caps, bold & exclamation mark proves nothing.
1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
Why are you putting in bold claims that have no scripture basis? Salvation is about a Savior saving a sinner who is not righteous. And if you are righteous, you are ineligible for salvation. "I came not to call the righteous." Salvation solves the problem of sin, lack of righteousness. Salvation recreates the sinner who has no good works and makes him a saint. Righteousness follows salvation. Initially the sinner who has no good works is declared righteous (justified) by faith alone.
The RIGHTEOUS enter heaven because [sic] they DO right, they DO NOT] have Faith ALONE!
SALVATION IS NEVER MENTIONED IN THE S & G JUDGMENT. You simply must consult passages on that topic to establish the doctrine. The order is clear:
1) sinner with no good works, only filthy rags,
2) God exercises grace & man exercises faith.
3) Man is recreated for good works in salvation.
4) Good works result.
Good works follow salvation; they do not effect salvation.
Sheep did not even know they were
doing for Jesus.. They CANNOT be accused of WORKING their way into heaven!
Text does say they didn't know.
But you are right; you need to stop any claim that they worked their way into the Kingdom.
The Goats have "Faith ALONE" they also address Jesus as LORD just as the Sheep!
Saving faith is trusting the Savior, not merely addressing him as "Lord." That argument is utterly bogus. Every knee will bow & every tongue confess -- that doesn't save them. The Goats (Gentiles of the Tribulation) do not ever indicate that they depended on the Lord Jesus & His shed blood to pay for their sins & give them eternal life.
And BTW, when will do that?
THE ONLY....
The only difference between the S & G is their actions/In actions!
The only difference between the S & G is their actions/In actions!
Text does not say that. Behind any good works is salvation; behind any salvation is faith -- but the text does not speak about salvation. Your text is off topic of salvation.
FACT [sic falsehood]: There is NO scriptures that say "Faith ALONE saves"!
The teaching of "Faith ALONE saves" was a idea coming in the sixteen century!
The teaching of "Faith ALONE saves" was a idea coming in the sixteen century!
Here is a sample of scripture where salvation is by faith/belief/trust in the Savior ALONE!
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO ROMANISM]
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