When we die where do we really go!

[RickyZ]

We need to understand how time and eternity interact. Most people think time is linear - there’s eternity at one end, then a time line, then eternity at the other end. Perhaps this looks familiar:

eternity)---time---(eternity


But that image is wrong. What we need to picture is a wheel. A wheel has a hub and a rim. Imagine God and eternity existing in the hub, and time running along the rim. With this image in mind we can see how, like randomly inserted spokes, God can reach out and touch any point in time, at any point in time.

We also need to understand that what happens in one realm reflects upon the other (Matthew 18:18)… the two interact much like the light caught between two facing mirrors. What happens in one reflects in the other, then back to the first and returning again and again in an endless chain. That’s part of that eternal being thing... once set in motion, it reflects forever.

But think about it. The day you are born, God enters the world to walk beside you until you die, and then He takes you home. Having spent your whole life with you, retreating only to bring you back into the hub with Him, from there God enters the world when your best friend is born, spends his entire life with him, until He brings him home. Then again, reaching into time the day King David was born, spend his entire life with him, until He brings him home. That’s how God is able to be with all of us, all of the time, at the same time.

It also shows how, even tho for all men it is appointed to die, the believer shall never die. Because at the moment they die they are caught up with God to Life. Unbelievers take a dirt nap until their appointed resurrection. But for believers the resurrection occurs immediately. To us, it appears linear. But to God, our time means nothing. "Today you shall be with me in paradise" Christ told the thief. Not "be patient and I'll be back for your soul some day".

As an aside, it also brings up the role of praise and thanksgiving for answered prayer, as our worship here on the rim after an event goes into the eternal hub before God, Who can then react back upon it at any point in time, including that which to us is past. That is how praise and thanksgiving for answered prayer can influence the outcome of what we’re rejoicing over before it even happens. And it’s why we should be thankful people as a matter of nature.

And to answer another question in this thread, we do reunite with our physical bodies on the other side. Is Christ's physical body still in the grave? No, it was taken up and redeemed and now serves as His spiritual body. It will be the same with us.

 

[dcontroversal]

Now some of you have me searching.
Is there a passage that leads some to think that Believers go straight to Heaven when they die?
Such doctrine makes the Resurrection at the Return of Christ seem more like a step backward.

How does Jesus bring the saints with him when he comes back if they are not currently with him?......

 

[dcontroversal]

It is a parable and that not even about the afterlife.

yeah well there are few details that you obviously reject that puts it above a parable....LIKE ACTUAL NAMES and PEOPLE involved so.....keep on dreaming!

 

[TruthFromFrank]

It's easy to say others are "dreaming" and "reality" will show them the "opposite" of what they believe suggesting they get their belief from "comic strips".

Can you give us the real "reality" that lies ahead for we Christians as you see them without simply saying "Read your Bible?"

Well to be quite frank, I did not see any reply from you regarding this subject of hell and heaven and now you are questioning me about the reality that lies ahead and criticizing me? Reading the Bible with an open mind and not being influenced by pastors and ministers, you will realize that at the end of times, Satan will be loose on this earth trying his best to destroy all those that are still believing in God and doing their best to do what God expects them to do. You know what you believe in and is that in line with God's Word? Only you can answer that. Just read Revelations in the Bible and you will see what will happen to all those that do not believe in the Creator God and what plagues and torture they will have to go through because they do not obey God, who is the only Creator. Reality is what you are seeing around you already how this world is going backward at a rapid pace. Worldwide you see problems of war, hunger, famine, corruption and many other issues that attacks the people, the creation of God, and it is just getting worse. It is all because the people reject the true God directly or indirectly and you should know, looking at your age, you must have seen the world 50 years ago and comparing it to now, it is much worse. Do you agree? For me also now to give you each text with explanations will be such a long article and people will criticize me again for writing all these long articles.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Now some of you have me searching.
Is there a passage that leads some to think that Believers go straight to Heaven when they die?
Such doctrine makes the Resurrection at the Return of Christ seem more like a step backward.

You are right with your last statement. There is NO text in the Bible that will tell you that you go to Heaven when you die. It is a false teaching as Jesus is currently busy with the judgement and only when He is finished with it, will He come on the cloud to collect His flock.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

My bible talks of three Heavens and three "Hells" and that Angels are eternal but we are all free willed and can think and do as we want.Mac.

That's fine by me.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

"The dead unsaved ones will be resurrected " My Bible say all the dead are dead there is no saved or unsaved dead the dead are just dead and do not exist in any form at this time.The surface of the earth will indeed be remade by melt down and a few who rejected God will be tossed into the melt and that is called the second death. Then the Earth with more land then water will have room for all the Saints and they will be living and walking on the ashes of the dead guys just like the Bible says.I skipped over many things sorry but just to many things to talk about.Mac

Hi Mac, the Bible talks about TWO different resurrections, the first one being just before the 1000 years and the second one just after the 1000 years. The first one will be for the living 'saved' and the dead 'saved'. The second resurrection will be for the dead 'unsaved'. You want texts to prove that? Just ask and it will be given.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

We need to understand how time and eternity interact. Most people think time is linear - there’s eternity at one end, then a time line, then eternity at the other end. Perhaps this looks familiar:

eternity)---time---(eternity


But that image is wrong. What we need to picture is a wheel. A wheel has a hub and a rim. Imagine God and eternity existing in the hub, and time running along the rim. With this image in mind we can see how, like randomly inserted spokes, God can reach out and touch any point in time, at any point in time.

We also need to understand that what happens in one realm reflects upon the other (Matthew 18:18)… the two interact much like the light caught between two facing mirrors. What happens in one reflects in the other, then back to the first and returning again and again in an endless chain. That’s part of that eternal being thing... once set in motion, it reflects forever.

But think about it. The day you are born, God enters the world to walk beside you until you die, and then He takes you home. Having spent your whole life with you, retreating only to bring you back into the hub with Him, from there God enters the world when your best friend is born, spends his entire life with him, until He brings him home. Then again, reaching into time the day King David was born, spend his entire life with him, until He brings him home. That’s how God is able to be with all of us, all of the time, at the same time.

It also shows how, even tho for all men it is appointed to die, the believer shall never die. Because at the moment they die they are caught up with God to Life. Unbelievers take a dirt nap until their appointed resurrection. But for believers the resurrection occurs immediately. To us, it appears linear. But to God, our time means nothing. "Today you shall be with me in paradise" Christ told the thief. Not "be patient and I'll be back for your soul some day".

As an aside, it also brings up the role of praise and thanksgiving for answered prayer, as our worship here on the rim after an event goes into the eternal hub before God, Who can then react back upon it at any point in time, including that which to us is past. That is how praise and thanksgiving for answered prayer can influence the outcome of what we’re rejoicing over before it even happens. And it’s why we should be thankful people as a matter of nature.

And to answer another question in this thread, we do reunite with our physical bodies on the other side. Is Christ's physical body still in the grave? No, it was taken up and redeemed and now serves as His spiritual body. It will be the same with us.

Sorry, I cannot agree with all your theories. None of what you are saying is in line with the Word of God. Kindly provide me with texts from the Bible to prove me wrong. As far as I am concerned you are trying to influence people with spiritualism and that does not gel with the Bible, the only true Word of the Creator God.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Hi goodnewsanonomys

A very good question that millions are asking around the world. The Bible’s answerThe Bible says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 146:4) Therefore, when we die, we cease to exist. The dead can’t think, act, or feel anything.


“To dust you will return”
God explained what happens when we die when he spoke to the first man, Adam. Because Adam was disobedient, God said to him: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Before God created Adam “out of dust from the ground,” Adam did not exist. (Genesis 2:7) Likewise, when Adam died, he returned to dust and ceased to exist.


The same thing happens to those who die now. Speaking of both humans and animals, the Bible says: “They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.”—Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20.


Death is not necessarily the end of everything
The Bible often compares death to sleep. (Psalm 13:3; John 11:11-14; Acts 7:60) A person who is fast asleep is unaware of what is happening around him. Likewise, the dead are not conscious of anything. Yet, the Bible teaches that God can awaken the dead as if from sleep and give them life again. (Job 14:13-15) For those whom God resurrects, death is not the end of everything.

I hope this helped! If you have anymore questions please feel free to inbox me.

Well said. People need to realize that God can resurrect those that have turned to dust, as He has the power to create from dust and to give them life and their old memories if He wants to. The two resurrections that will take place before and after the 1000 years or millennium, will be the sorting of the 'saved' and the 'non-saved' as there is work to be done. First the 'saved' will go through the judgement during the 1000 years in heaven and they will even be involved in judging the fallen angels and after the 1000 years, the non-saved will be resurrected to be destroyed with Satan and his angels, yes, to rid the whole world of all evil spirits, ghosts, Satan and the non-saved. That is when a new-earth will be created. It is all documented in the Word of God, the Bible.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

i think i'll take a nap, until Jesus reigns on earth, but i can't say for sure.

By taking a nap until Jesus reigns, might turn out to be a disaster for you. Rather spend your time wisely and study the Word of God to find the truth and to be saved.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

The New Heavens and the New Earth is a biblical concept. I think you even mentioned it in your earlier post, so what are you disputing here, exactly?

I can see that you and RickyZ are on the same wave-length. When somebody quotes "Heaven and hell are mis-spoken stories", then I see a red warning light, as heaven and hell is a reality which is in line with God's Word, the Bible. Go and check it out, you might just learn something.

 

[RickyZ]

Sorry, I cannot agree with all your theories. None of what you are saying is in line with the Word of God. Kindly provide me with texts from the Bible to prove me wrong. As far as I am concerned you are trying to influence people with spiritualism and that does not gel with the Bible, the only true Word of the Creator God.

Isn't Spiritualism the whole point of the Bible, to reunite the physical (which we are bound to) with the Spiritual (which we are exiled from)? If you're thinking divination then yes that's something to be wary of.

The timeline vs wheel thing is more a visualization technique than a theology, a way to comprehend and answer for more possibilities than a strict timeline can allow. Altho a whole lot of prophecy does involve visions of wheels and hubs... I think it has a Biblical precedent.

Matthew 18:18 - what you bind/loose here on earth is bound/loosed in heaven? Think of Exodus 14 and Moses parting the Red Sea... Moses says God will save us, God says not until Moses goes and raises his staff, Moses goes and raises his staff and the Red Sea parted so they could cross. What we do in the physical (obedience in raising our staff) reflects and empowers the spiritual (the Sea miraculously parted) and back again (by this they were saved). Jesus repeatedly told people go and do this and you will have that... demons are constantly working to get people to sin because of the empowerment it gives them over the sinner... the physical and the spiritual are interfaced and what happens in one depends on what's happening in the other.

Jesus telling the thief "today you will be with Me" says there's no dirt nap - spiritually - for confessors. Our flesh rots until it is resurrected at the end of circular time, but thru the magic of wheel and hub technology it's redeemed self arrives at the same time we do... even tho we preceeded it by 'years'. Remember, years only occur in circular time - in eternity it's all here and now before God.

 

[RickyZ]

I can see that you and RickyZ are on the same wave-length. When somebody quotes "Heaven and hell are mis-spoken stories", then I see a red warning light, as heaven and hell is a reality which is in line with God's Word, the Bible. Go and check it out, you might just learn something.

Oh I'm checking things out and learning all the time. No matter how much (we think) we know, today is not the day to stop learning. Or experiencing. You've learned the verses, have you experienced them in action? It's one thing to memorize a pilot's manual, it's another thing to fly the plane. Sometimes lack of experience constricts one's views.

 

[Cycel]

I do not believe in the death= translation to heaven/hell myth.
Gehenna (Hell/Lake of Fire) is not currently in use.

You mean it is temporarily closed? You believe it will reopen during the end times? It seems to me there are plenty of people who believe Hell is fully operational.

This is the first I've heard the term: Gehenna. Naturally I looked it up in Wikipedia.

"In Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[2] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell." (Wikipedia: Gehenna)

I thought the above was interesting as well.

Jesus is currently preparing a place for Believers, to be received after the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
These places are put into use AFTER the Judgement.

I am not sure why the entire universe can be created in six days, but it takes close to 2000 years to prepare a place for the dead. In your view does this suggest that each day in the creation story might be much longer than a 24 hour day? Just curious how you rationalize the discrepancy. Also, am I thinking correctly that the last days can't occur until the preparations you mention are complete?

Rest does not equal soul-sleep.

It sounds like you have rejected the notion of soul-sleep, yet I seem to recall Paul saying something about a trumpet blowing and waking the souls the sleeping dead? Ring any bells?

 

[RickyZ]

I can see that you (TinTin) and RickyZ are on the same wave-length.

By the way thank you for one of the better compliments I've received in a while. To be put on a level with TinTin is an honor!

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Isn't Spiritualism the whole point of the Bible, to reunite the physical (which we are bound to) with the Spiritual (which we are exiled from)? If you're thinking divination then yes that's something to be wary of.

Definitely not.

 

[prove-all]

if we die and go up to heaven,

how can we be raised up from earth when he comes.

do we play harps forever in heaven, that would get old quick.


no more tears or hurting the bible says,

if you where in heaven looking down on loved ones,

i would be filled with tears seeing my loved ones suffer on earth.

i believe when Christ arose, he raised those saints from the old testament,

but after that the gate to heaven was closed off till his return.

 

[prove-all]

- what happens to people who never heard the name Jesus

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

- God blinded Isreals eyes now, does that mean not saved because they are not called now.

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber,
eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people,
I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

5Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you,
and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel:
behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

13And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves,
O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

- gentiles too will be resurrected to mortal life.

55When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate,
and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate,
then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

62And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:
and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

-the greek word for books is biblia, the books her is the bible.

they are given understanding of the bible,
two books are opened, book of judgement, but also the book of life is opened.

-i think people are given an opportunity to have there name wrighten in the book of life.
those not called, those who never heard the name Jesus, or died young before learning.

17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

-so where should we insert this verse at, those died in past ignorants or unknowing.

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days:
for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight

 

[skye51]

"The dead unsaved ones will be resurrected " My Bible say all the dead are dead there is no saved or unsaved dead the dead are just dead and do not exist in any form at this time.The surface of the earth will indeed be remade by melt down and a few who rejected God will be tossed into the melt and that is called the second death. Then the Earth with more land then water will have room for all the Saints and they will be living and walking on the ashes of the dead guys just like the Bible says.I skipped over many things sorry but just to many things to talk about.Mac

what about the evil spirit, how can it return with seven other spirits. Also what about those who actually had spirits living inside them. What did jesus mean when he told the apostles to raise the dead, and to go out and preach that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt 10:7&8

 

[Mac4Yuma]

Hi Mac, the Bible talks about TWO different resurrections, the first one being just before the 1000 years and the second one just after the 1000 years. The first one will be for the living 'saved' and the dead 'saved'. The second resurrection will be for the dead 'unsaved'. You want texts to prove that? Just ask and it will be given.

Well there are really four that have lots of meaning, the first was about Jesus living again after death the second is when Jesus returns and the third is at the end of the 1000 years and the fourth starts at the end of the 1000 years.

You did better then most about how many and I do thank you for the reply I was getting ready to drop this forum from my help list but now I will wait a bit to see how things go.

Mac.