Works and Faith

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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#1
James 2:23-26Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Which is first, Faith or works of Faith?

And does anyone of us, have to tell others of our works we have done by Faith?
If we do, can and does that set one up for pride and arrogance as if one is better than another?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,888
86
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#2
So the works justifies ones Faith as ex: the good Samaritan is works that justified Faith
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#3
Well you certainly can't have works of faith without being of faith in the first place.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#4
James 2:23-26Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Which is first, Faith or works of Faith?

And does anyone of us, have to tell others of our works we have done by Faith?
If we do, can and does that set one up for pride and arrogance as if one is better than another?
Here we have Abraham being in the right standing with God because of his deed of placing faith in God.

Here we have Rahab being in the right standing with the Hebrews because of her deed of not reporting the spies.

Neither of the two would have had the right standing (righteousness: state of being considered righteous before another) if neither would had performed their particular deed first.

That is, before one can perform the deed of following Christ's faith (religious system), they would first have to trust in (have faith in) God, just as Abraham.

And if this is true, then I must perform an act of faith (of trusting) before I am righteous before God, just as Abraham performed the act of trusting in God before it was accounted as righteousness for him.

But, I gather you are talking about the fruits of the Spirit which comes after placing one's trust in Christ. But, then again, one must first believe before receiving the Spirit and thus, producing works belonging to (of) faith.

P.S. No and then yes to your last two questions......
 
H

hishealingred

Guest
#5
Well if you READ the whole chapter you will know.

"2 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2
 
R

roaringkitten

Guest
#6
Part of the problem with people misinterpreting James is that people need to realize that man is justified in the eyes of man by his works but justified in the eyes of God by faith. Note the way this part of James 2 is written:

''...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.'' James 2:18

This is man's testimony to man. God sees the heart of faith and his works, man sees the results of his faith-works. Man has every right to question the validness of one's faith if such a person produces no good works.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#7
Some good answers.. the issue I see is that no amount of works will bring about faith...But real faith will bring about good works (fruit of the spirit).
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#8
Well if you READ the whole chapter you will know.
Perhaps, he was merely trying to dig deeper into God's written word? Even perhaps, trying to get some Light shined on it?
 
H

hishealingred

Guest
#9
Perhaps, he was merely trying to dig deeper into God's written word? Even perhaps, trying to get some Light shined on it?
Hahaha, I was thinking "Either he is trying to get me to read this or he is just trying to justify works without faith" but I know we are not to judge but I admit I thought it. I tried to say that as un-judgemental as I could but bless you for seeing through it and catching me trying to hide it.
 
H

hishealingred

Guest
#10
Also sorry for thinking that, it was wrong.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#11
James 2:23-26Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Which is first, Faith or works of Faith?

And does anyone of us, have to tell others of our works we have done by Faith?
If we do, can and does that set one up for pride and arrogance as if one is better than another?
Look at the story again. James is referring to Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac (''And the scripture was fulfilled''), but Abraham had faith from the start when he first believed the promise and was justified.

Genesis 15:5-6 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#12
Hahaha, I was thinking "Either he is trying to get me to read this or he is just trying to justify works without faith" but I know we are not to judge but I admit I thought it. I tried to say that as un-judgemental as I could but bless you for seeing through it and catching me trying to hide it.
Bless you for being a wise person.

I just want to add this little proverbial statement: Only God knows the heart and its intent. All we can do is assume.
 
Jan 6, 2014
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#13
The Pharisees did many works, but they did not do them to please God, but rather to please man. They sought to promote themselves in the religious system they had created, losing sight of God, to the point they had no relationship with God. Paul is the example of this, he became the perfect Pharisee but did not know God or recognize God in Jesus Christ. So from what scripture reveals to me faith without works is dead and also works without faith is dead. God has called himself our Father he wants to have a relationship with us. Love of God is the most important thing, faith and works without love means nothing.
 
R

roaringkitten

Guest
#14
You can generally label each Bible character(during any part of their lives) into one of these 4 camps:
1)justified in the eyes of God, not justified in the eyes of man
2)justified in the eyes of man, not justified in the eyes of God
3)justified in the eyes of both man and God---*good example Job*
4)not justified in the eyes of both man and God

Just an observation I have made through Bible reading.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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#15
James 2:23-26Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Which is first, Faith or works of Faith?

And does anyone of us, have to tell others of our works we have done by Faith?
If we do, can and does that set one up for pride and arrogance as if one is better than another?


James 2.21 -26




Was not our father Abraham justified by works offering up his son Isaac on the altar?You see that faith worked with his works; and out of the works the faith was made perfected.(Gen 22.9)


And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying, ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was counted for righteousness to him;’ and he was called, Friend of God. You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only. (Gen 15.6)


But in the same way Rahab the harlot was also justified out of works, having received the messengers, and sending them out by another way. For as the body is dead apart from the spirit, so also faith is dead apart from works.(Joshua 5-6)






James’ references three separate OT events in these NT verses.


His first example is regarding Abraham and whom he encountered, talked with, and what he did as a result of this encounter, at the time of his offering of son Isaac as a sacrifice to Yahweh. When we read the OT Genesis account, we are informed that Abraham’s discourse was with Malek Yahweh the entire time. Malek Yahweh is Yahweh The Son, the Second Person of The Trinity, in the OT.Abraham’s FAITH was in God The Son, and his works reflected a belief in The Trinity.


The second example also refers to Abraham’s encounter with The Second Person of The Trinity, The Word of Yahweh, as recorded in Gen 15. In this encounter, God The Son informs Abraham that his very own seed will become heir.Again, Abraham’s FAITH was in God The Son, and his works reflected a belief in The Trinity.


The third example of Rahab is recorded in the Book of Joshua in chapters 5 & 6.Here, we learn that The Second Person of The Trinity is seen in the image of a man, and leads the army of Yahweh (chapter 5). In chapter 6, this same commander-man is called Yahweh and he instructs the march around Jerico until the walls fall down – sparing only Rahab and her immediate family, as she believed in Malek Yahweh as detailed in chapter 2. Again, Rahab’s FAITH was in God The Son, and her works reflected a belief in The Trinity.




Astoundingly, ALL three of James’ examples demonstrate a faith in God The Son, and works based around this belief.






 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,888
86
48
#16
Perhaps, he was merely trying to dig deeper into God's written word? Even perhaps, trying to get some Light shined on it?
Tanks Brother, that is correct, and the light is shinning. Great answers
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,888
86
48
#17
Hahaha, I was thinking "Either he is trying to get me to read this or he is just trying to justify works without faith" but I know we are not to judge but I admit I thought it. I tried to say that as un-judgemental as I could but bless you for seeing through it and catching me trying to hide it.
gets us thinking, an that is good to grow in Spirit and truth
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#18
works of faith, HMM, is there a work we can do in faith? we can walk in faith and trust God that what we are doing is His will. But, I think it's a fine line between works and the result of faith. I think that the work we do is the result of faith in the work of the cross and not the means. We must be careful to not rely on our work but rely on the work that God performed for us no matter how knowledgeable we are.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,888
86
48
#19
Also sorry for thinking that, it was wrong.
Be aware. know what it could be, ask, test take all in to Father who lives in you, your teacher to all truth
Hebrews 8:11
and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

John 4:24

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,888
86
48
#20
Look at the story again. James is referring to Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac (''And the scripture was fulfilled''), but Abraham had faith from the start when he first believed the promise and was justified.

Genesis 15:5-6 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Absolutely so, excellent noticing