for young earth people, what is most common explanation for starlight?
- Thread starter Dan_473
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
we measure time by the distance light travels, originally, as a fraction of a mean solar day, but later it was discovered that there are slight variations and irregularities of the rotation of the earth, so the SI unit is now based on the radioactive decay of cesium.. but physical length is defined by the speed of light, and so is astronomical time
-- do you think the passage of time was inconstant relative to us 'at that time' as well?
The Rapid-Formation Model
http://www.raherrmann.com/rfm.pdf
for context...
DVD Model
DVD Illustration for Universe Creation.
Eden Model
The Eden Model
Dr. Robert A. Herrmann's (GID) Intelligent Design and Considerably More Web Site
http://www.raherrmann.com/rfm.pdf
for context...
DVD Model
DVD Illustration for Universe Creation.
Eden Model
The Eden Model
Dr. Robert A. Herrmann's (GID) Intelligent Design and Considerably More Web Site
Last edited:
F
Christians who accept the Bible as the Word of God can take His omnipotent word by faith when He said He created the world in six days, without having to fully understand how it was accomplished. Can science prove that it's possible for a virgin to give birth? Can it be proven that Jesus raised people from the dead? Is it possible for God who can speak things into exsistance place galaxies billions of light years away from earth if He chose to? What can God do that we fallible humans can prove is not possible? For a Christian to place limtations on God and what He can and can't do is futile.
About your question:
As has been often repeated in creationist literature, the starlight-travel-time problem is particularly important to solve. The problem is simply that in the time available since creation (about 6,000 years) there has not been enough time for light to get to Earth from even the nearest neighbour galaxies (1.5 to 3 million years travel time at constant speed of light c) let alone the most distant galaxies (billions of years travel time at constant c). How then do we see them and how did Adam see them? Read more: A new cosmology: solution to the starlight travel time problem - creation.com
According to the Bible, everything in the universe was made in the span of six days (Exodus 20:11); these are clearly ordinary earth rotation days comprised of one evening and one morning (Genesis 1:5). Moreover, this creation happened a few thousand (roughly 6,000) years ago, as deduced from the genealogies we read in sections of the Bible such as Genesis 5 and 11. The clear biblical teaching therefore is that everything in the universe is a few thousand years old. Since light travels a distance of one light year (about 6 trillion miles or 9 trillion kilometers) in one year, it would seem that we should only be able to see objects within a radius of 6,000 light years. Objects beyond that distance should not be visible, since presumably their light has not yet reached us. Yet, paradoxically, we can see galaxies whose distances have been measured to be many billions of light years away. This apparent mystery has been often addressed in creation literature as “the distant starlight problem.” Read more: https://answersingenesis.org/astron...nchrony-convention-distant-starlight-problem/
About your question:
As has been often repeated in creationist literature, the starlight-travel-time problem is particularly important to solve. The problem is simply that in the time available since creation (about 6,000 years) there has not been enough time for light to get to Earth from even the nearest neighbour galaxies (1.5 to 3 million years travel time at constant speed of light c) let alone the most distant galaxies (billions of years travel time at constant c). How then do we see them and how did Adam see them? Read more: A new cosmology: solution to the starlight travel time problem - creation.com
According to the Bible, everything in the universe was made in the span of six days (Exodus 20:11); these are clearly ordinary earth rotation days comprised of one evening and one morning (Genesis 1:5). Moreover, this creation happened a few thousand (roughly 6,000) years ago, as deduced from the genealogies we read in sections of the Bible such as Genesis 5 and 11. The clear biblical teaching therefore is that everything in the universe is a few thousand years old. Since light travels a distance of one light year (about 6 trillion miles or 9 trillion kilometers) in one year, it would seem that we should only be able to see objects within a radius of 6,000 light years. Objects beyond that distance should not be visible, since presumably their light has not yet reached us. Yet, paradoxically, we can see galaxies whose distances have been measured to be many billions of light years away. This apparent mystery has been often addressed in creation literature as “the distant starlight problem.” Read more: https://answersingenesis.org/astron...nchrony-convention-distant-starlight-problem/
Lol, how does anyone know how far away the stars even are? Have they gone out to the stars and measured the distance? For that matter who knows what stars are made of exactly? There's tons of vain theories. Some people even vainly think the sun is a star and stars are suns. Yet no one can prove the stars are suns. Therefore, if the stars are not suns, but are a unique classification of heavenly objects, then the whole paradigm of stars has to be thrown away and rethought.
J
Hi, Dan. Sorry this is long, but it's some information I saved on my computer, also being interested in all such things over the years.
Young earth creation and starlight, light years, explained in terms of time dilation:
Time dilation
An experimentally verified prediction of Einstein's General Relativity Theory is a phenomenon called gravitational time dilation. It has long been established that gravity affects the rate at which time flows in any particular location in the universe. A graphic example of this phenomenon is the GPS satellite navigation system which is becoming a standard feature in many motor vehicles today.
It has long been established that gravity affects the rate at which time flows in any particular location in the universe. A graphic example of this phenomenon is the GPS satellite navigation system which is becoming a standard feature in many motor vehicles today.
One's position is determined by comparing the time taken for signals from a number of the satellites, which are visible at any one time, to reach the receiver so very high precision timing is needed. The constellation of satellites orbits the earth at an altitude of about 20,000km. At this height, the atomic clocks on board the satellites run faster than the same clocks on earth by 42 microseconds per day. The satellites are travelling at around 12,000 km per hour which produces an opposing relativistic effect of slowing the clocks down by about 5 microseconds per day. The combined effect is that the clocks on the GPS satellites run 38 microseconds per day faster than equivalent earth-bound clocks. Why does this matter? If this time difference was ignored and no compensation made, the position errors would build up at a rate of about 400m per hour which would render the system completely useless!
Another mechanism for time dilation is rapid acceleration of the fabric of space in an expanding universe. This is explained more fully in Hartnett's book referenced above.
God stretched out the heavens
In at least 11 places, the Scriptures speak of God 'stretching out the heavens' (e.g. Job 9:8, Isaiah 40:22 and 42:5, Jeremiah 10:12, Zechariah 12:1) and in Genesis 1:15 the words 'And it was so.' are recorded in connection with the events of Day 4 of Creation Week, implying the completion of the events described on that Day. It is a reasonable conclusion to draw that God stretched out the heavens to the vast extent of the observable universe in just one 24 hour day and then ceased the action of 'stretching out'. This is more rational than the inflation fudge of big bangers. That is, where the universe just happened to expand much faster than light, although there is no known physical cause for starting or stopping this superluminal expansion.
We should also note that God created the Earth first before the sun, moon and stars (and by inference the planets etc) so it would seem reasonable to assume the universe was stretched out with the Earth at or very near its centre. Furthermore, Psalm 147:4 and Isaiah 40:26 imply that there is a finite number of stars in the universe. So, the Bible seems to teach that we live in a finite universe that has, at the very least, our Milky Way galaxy at its centre.
Distant starlight and the biblical timescale
We now have the keys to understanding how starlight can reach us from such vast distances in just a few thousand years of Earth time. The days of the Creation Week were recorded from the point of view of an observer on the earth so the time reference in Genesis is Earth time. On Day 4, as God commenced stretching out the heavens, the mass of the universe (presumably including the 'waters above' which were separated out on Day 2) would have been confined to a much smaller volume of space than is the case today. Assuming the Hartnett–Carmeli theory is correct, the Universe rapidly expanded with massive time dilation as a result of very rapid acceleration of the fabric of space on Day 4. The Humphreys model5 on the other hand, also based on General Relativity, has clocks at the outer edge of the cosmos running much faster than earth-bound clocks because of gravitational time dilation.
By the end of Day 4, when God completed his work of creating the sun, moon and stars, and had stretched out the heavens to their vast extent, billions of years of cosmic time could have elapsed at the outer edges of the cosmos in just one 24 hour earth day. There would have been more than enough time for the light from distant stars to have reached the earth so that when Adam gazed at the night sky on that sixth night he would have seen much the same as what we see today.
6,000 years have passed since the Creation Week. If the models outlined above are correct, the light from any star that is greater than 6,000 light years away from the earth will have originated on Day 4 itself. This would include most of the visible stars, all of which are part of the Milky Way galaxy. We are effectively looking at God's creative activity on Day 4 as we gaze into the universe!
So what do we make of supernova 1987A? At 170,000 light years away we are looking at an event that occurred on Day 4 but whose light did not reach us until 1987.
Is an exploding star consistent with a perfect creation? God said that the stars were created to be for signs and seasons (Genesis 1:14) and God foreknew all that would happen right from the very beginning. What to us seems to be destruction is actually just a physical process which does not necessarily denote any lack of perfection in the original creation. Importantly, there is no loss of biblical life involved.
Young earth creation and starlight, light years, explained in terms of time dilation:
Time dilation
An experimentally verified prediction of Einstein's General Relativity Theory is a phenomenon called gravitational time dilation. It has long been established that gravity affects the rate at which time flows in any particular location in the universe. A graphic example of this phenomenon is the GPS satellite navigation system which is becoming a standard feature in many motor vehicles today.
It has long been established that gravity affects the rate at which time flows in any particular location in the universe. A graphic example of this phenomenon is the GPS satellite navigation system which is becoming a standard feature in many motor vehicles today.
One's position is determined by comparing the time taken for signals from a number of the satellites, which are visible at any one time, to reach the receiver so very high precision timing is needed. The constellation of satellites orbits the earth at an altitude of about 20,000km. At this height, the atomic clocks on board the satellites run faster than the same clocks on earth by 42 microseconds per day. The satellites are travelling at around 12,000 km per hour which produces an opposing relativistic effect of slowing the clocks down by about 5 microseconds per day. The combined effect is that the clocks on the GPS satellites run 38 microseconds per day faster than equivalent earth-bound clocks. Why does this matter? If this time difference was ignored and no compensation made, the position errors would build up at a rate of about 400m per hour which would render the system completely useless!
Another mechanism for time dilation is rapid acceleration of the fabric of space in an expanding universe. This is explained more fully in Hartnett's book referenced above.
God stretched out the heavens
In at least 11 places, the Scriptures speak of God 'stretching out the heavens' (e.g. Job 9:8, Isaiah 40:22 and 42:5, Jeremiah 10:12, Zechariah 12:1) and in Genesis 1:15 the words 'And it was so.' are recorded in connection with the events of Day 4 of Creation Week, implying the completion of the events described on that Day. It is a reasonable conclusion to draw that God stretched out the heavens to the vast extent of the observable universe in just one 24 hour day and then ceased the action of 'stretching out'. This is more rational than the inflation fudge of big bangers. That is, where the universe just happened to expand much faster than light, although there is no known physical cause for starting or stopping this superluminal expansion.
We should also note that God created the Earth first before the sun, moon and stars (and by inference the planets etc) so it would seem reasonable to assume the universe was stretched out with the Earth at or very near its centre. Furthermore, Psalm 147:4 and Isaiah 40:26 imply that there is a finite number of stars in the universe. So, the Bible seems to teach that we live in a finite universe that has, at the very least, our Milky Way galaxy at its centre.
Distant starlight and the biblical timescale
We now have the keys to understanding how starlight can reach us from such vast distances in just a few thousand years of Earth time. The days of the Creation Week were recorded from the point of view of an observer on the earth so the time reference in Genesis is Earth time. On Day 4, as God commenced stretching out the heavens, the mass of the universe (presumably including the 'waters above' which were separated out on Day 2) would have been confined to a much smaller volume of space than is the case today. Assuming the Hartnett–Carmeli theory is correct, the Universe rapidly expanded with massive time dilation as a result of very rapid acceleration of the fabric of space on Day 4. The Humphreys model5 on the other hand, also based on General Relativity, has clocks at the outer edge of the cosmos running much faster than earth-bound clocks because of gravitational time dilation.
By the end of Day 4, when God completed his work of creating the sun, moon and stars, and had stretched out the heavens to their vast extent, billions of years of cosmic time could have elapsed at the outer edges of the cosmos in just one 24 hour earth day. There would have been more than enough time for the light from distant stars to have reached the earth so that when Adam gazed at the night sky on that sixth night he would have seen much the same as what we see today.
6,000 years have passed since the Creation Week. If the models outlined above are correct, the light from any star that is greater than 6,000 light years away from the earth will have originated on Day 4 itself. This would include most of the visible stars, all of which are part of the Milky Way galaxy. We are effectively looking at God's creative activity on Day 4 as we gaze into the universe!
So what do we make of supernova 1987A? At 170,000 light years away we are looking at an event that occurred on Day 4 but whose light did not reach us until 1987.
Is an exploding star consistent with a perfect creation? God said that the stars were created to be for signs and seasons (Genesis 1:14) and God foreknew all that would happen right from the very beginning. What to us seems to be destruction is actually just a physical process which does not necessarily denote any lack of perfection in the original creation. Importantly, there is no loss of biblical life involved.
J
Near stars by the parallax method, more distant stars by something to do with light emitted, which I forget details of. On parallax,
Parallax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It has been proven the near stars are a long ways off, but I can't speak to that incessant quality of the secular scientist to go into the Carl Sagan "billions and billions" mode, sort of like the fossils dated by the layer of rock they're found in, and the rock dated by the fossils in it, never quite getting a real answer to some questions.
Parallax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It has been proven the near stars are a long ways off, but I can't speak to that incessant quality of the secular scientist to go into the Carl Sagan "billions and billions" mode, sort of like the fossils dated by the layer of rock they're found in, and the rock dated by the fossils in it, never quite getting a real answer to some questions.
OK now this may sound dumb but..could someone explain to me what is meant by "young earth". Now I know God created (it's not just something I believe but know is truth) but I am not familiar with the term "young earth". Please send me a private message so it doesn't take up too much room here. Shoot! You can all explain it to me. The more info I have the more I can learn about the subject!
J
"For a Christian to place limtations on God and what He can and can't do is futile."
This is so very true, and the source of much human arrogance and error. He is omnipotent Almighty God, the Creator of the universe, which includes its light, for goodness sake! To state or think God, now that He has created everything, must obey some Einstein equation we finally observed, or, worse, that He needed to obey natural laws we dimly understand, before there was even the nature He created, in the first place, makes no sense. If you accept that God is, indeed, Almighty, created this vast universe, He therefore has power over all things. His power is manifest through many miracles we could not explain, which defy the natural laws scientists pigeon hole everything in. Believer, we are speaking of God here!
2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
This is so very true, and the source of much human arrogance and error. He is omnipotent Almighty God, the Creator of the universe, which includes its light, for goodness sake! To state or think God, now that He has created everything, must obey some Einstein equation we finally observed, or, worse, that He needed to obey natural laws we dimly understand, before there was even the nature He created, in the first place, makes no sense. If you accept that God is, indeed, Almighty, created this vast universe, He therefore has power over all things. His power is manifest through many miracles we could not explain, which defy the natural laws scientists pigeon hole everything in. Believer, we are speaking of God here!
2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
I like all that has been said and it is interesting....I will add another thought into the mix.....
1. Perception is reality
2. The things made are not made of what they appear to be made of.....
3. Maybe our perception and or gnosis are flawed a bit
Or maybe God made it all and it had been in existence for eons and when Lucifer fell he wrecked the material creation (AS HE WANTED TO ASCEND ABOVE THE STARS OF GOD and EXHALT HIS THRONE ABOVE GOD and then God renovated/reconstructed what had been wrecked....
What was already here when God picks up with his spirit HOVERING/BROODING over what exactly.....?
1. Perception is reality
2. The things made are not made of what they appear to be made of.....
3. Maybe our perception and or gnosis are flawed a bit
Or maybe God made it all and it had been in existence for eons and when Lucifer fell he wrecked the material creation (AS HE WANTED TO ASCEND ABOVE THE STARS OF GOD and EXHALT HIS THRONE ABOVE GOD and then God renovated/reconstructed what had been wrecked....
What was already here when God picks up with his spirit HOVERING/BROODING over what exactly.....?
Well firstly I don't think I trust much this paralax technique though it is somewhat less janky than the redshift nonsense. The first big problem with this is you have to compare the distance of one star to another star though. Lol well that's a problem if you have never gone out and actually measured the star distance. Also of course this follows the fantasy of the Copernicus model, but that's a whole other topic.
However if we play into the parallax paradigm, you have a few fun facts to sling around to slay the old earth mythology with its own arguments. That according to this page (Stellar parallax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) stars can only be measured up to 100 parsecs (326 light years). And because of a supposed satellite we extend ability to try to measure parallax's to 1,600 light years.
Lol so either the stars are a lot closer and the universe is a lot smaller and younger than imagined (relatively) or there is a problem with this model and basically we know actually very little about the cosmos, much less than scientists mythologize and claim. Either way seems to me there is no conflict at all with starlight and the young creation model.
However if we play into the parallax paradigm, you have a few fun facts to sling around to slay the old earth mythology with its own arguments. That according to this page (Stellar parallax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) stars can only be measured up to 100 parsecs (326 light years). And because of a supposed satellite we extend ability to try to measure parallax's to 1,600 light years.
Lol so either the stars are a lot closer and the universe is a lot smaller and younger than imagined (relatively) or there is a problem with this model and basically we know actually very little about the cosmos, much less than scientists mythologize and claim. Either way seems to me there is no conflict at all with starlight and the young creation model.
F
In The Genesis Record, Dr. Henry Morris concluded that the light from distant stars could have been created in transit so that the universe only appears to be old, having the appearance of maturity. Lisle describes a problem with this view. “We see things happen in space. For example, we see stars change brightness and move. Sometimes we see stars explode. We see these things because their light has reached us.” Yet, if the light were created in transit, then we are observing events—novae and supernovae, for example—that never actually happened. It doesn’t seem reasonable that God would create“movies” of fictional events. Read more: https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-creation-models-be-wrong/