Convoluted Calvinism: Or Reason Thrown Out The Window

[Elin]

Since you're doing Skinski's post, would you like to address Ro 4:5, 8:7-8 for him, without violating the texts?

No. . .Thanks anyway.

I didn't think so.

Kidding around with you is fine with me, but anything more than that would be against the Word since you have proven yourself as being undeniable. "Now I beseech you, brethren,
mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned ; and avoid them."

Agreed.

Is romans 4:5 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
I might be wrong there, just trying to put things in proper perspective.

You don't know what is Ro 4:5, and yet you present a misrepresentation of it?

The intellectually dishonest methodology never changes with those of your religious persuasion.

 

[just-me]

You don't know what is Ro 4:5, and yet you present a misrepresentation of it?

The intellectually dishonest methodology never changes with those of your religious persuasion.

James and Paul are not at odds with each other. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James2:20 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Can't have one without the other. Context my dear, context.

 

[Elin]

Is romans 4:5 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

You don't know what is Ro 4:5, and yet you present a misrepresentation of it?

The intellectually dishonest methodology never changes with those of your religious persuasion.

James and Paul are not at odds with each other.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on
him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James2:20 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Can't have one without the other. Context my dear, context.

More intellectually dishonest methodology. . .

You don't even know, much less understand, what the issue of the discussion is, do you?

The same goes for context.

Sure explains a lot.

 

[just-me]

It's not my theology, it's Paul's theology.
Your disagreement is not with me, it is with Paul.

Ro 8:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked,"

And if I may add, the fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is unbelief of Ro 8:7-8, 4:5.

Your humanreasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount to the spiritual powerlessness of unregenerate man

are based in your human rational inability to reconcile

Ro8:7-8, 4:5 with the righteousness of man requiredby God for salvation.

That's because you measure God by you.

God justifies the wicked (Ro 4:5).

If you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
turning him from his wickedness to repentance,
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey, and
and you don't really know God.

Your notions of God are too human, and you make God too small.

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." (Mt 22:29)

And we are agreed: the mercy of God throws human reason right out the window,

for it is based in divine wisdom, not human reason.

.
All your palaver is just to avoid dealing with the word of God in the following:

Spare us all the palaver of unbelief and deal with the word of God above.

Your ridicule is simply an overly obvious attempt to mask your FAIL in presenting a demonstration
of the meaning of Ro 4:5, without violating the text.

Your ridicule manifests the last refuge of your failed argument of unbelief.

And in your futility you do not even realize that setting Scripture against itself only proves
your misuderstanding of it, for God does not contradict himself.

Spare us all the futile attempt of your unbelieving palaver to beguile,

and deal with Ro 8:7-8, 4:5 without violating the two texts.

Agreed, apart from the word of God I don't have much to say. . .unlike you.

Nor is it about Calvin, it's about the word of God in Ro 4:5, 8:7-8, which you do not believe.

It's no bigger than that.

And all your palaver doesn't mask or alter that.

More intellectually dishonest methodology. . .

You don't even know, much less understand, what the issue of the discussion is, do you?

The same goes for context.

Sure explains a lot.

I only read your issues coupled with demeaning descriptions of others reasoning. OOPS

 

[Elin]

All your palaver is just to avoid dealing with the word of God in the following:

It's not man's theology, it's Paul's theology.

Your disagreement is not with me, it is with Paul.

Ro 8:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked,"

The fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is unbelief of Ro 8:7-8, 4:5.

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount to the spiritual powerlessness of unregenerate man

are based in your human rational inability to reconcile

Ro 8:7-8, 4:5, above, with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

Spare us all the palaver of unbelief and deal with the word of God above.

That's because you measure God by you.

God justifies the wicked (Ro 4:5).

If you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
turning him from his wickedness to repentance, faith and obedience.
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey, and
and you don't really know God.

Your notions of God are too human, and you make God too small.

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." (Mt 22:29)

And we are agreed: the mercy of God "throws human reason right out the window,"

for it is based in divine wisdom, not human reason, which thinks divine wisdom is foolishness (1Co 1:24-25, 3:18-20).

Your ridicule is simply an overly obvious attempt to mask your FAIL in presenting a demonstration of the meaning of Ro 4:5, above, without violating the text.

Your ridicule manifests the last refuge of your failed argument of unbelief.

And in your futility you do not even realize that setting Scripture against itself only proves
your misunderstanding of it, for God does not contradict himself.

Spare us all the futile attempt of your unbelieving palaver to beguile,

and deal with Ro 8:7-8, 4:5, above, without violating the two texts.

Agreed, apart from the word of God I don't have much to say. . .unlike you.

Nor is it about Calvin, it's about the word of God in Ro 4:5, 8:7-8, above, which you do not believe.

It's no bigger than that.

And all your palaver doesn't mask or alter that.

The record speaks for itself.

And you still don't know, or understand, what the issue of the discussion is.

 

[just-me]

The record speaks for itself.

And you still don't know, or understand, what the issue of the discussion is.

OK I repent. Are you a Calvinist?

 

[thecreationtutor]

Is God not Just if He does this - yes He is just always

 

[Elin]

OK I repent. Are you a Calvinist?

I don't do "ists" and "isms."

I do Bible.

I am a Biblicist.

 

[just-me]

I don't do "ists" and "isms."

I do Bible.

I am a Biblicist.

Good news, neither am I a Calvinist, we finally have something in common. I'm Biblistic which is a little different than you.

 

[Elin]

As for Romans 4:5
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I have already addressed that clearly. God reckons "faithfulness" as righteousness. A faith which has a walk (Rom 4:12), a faith which has an obedience (Heb 11:8) and a faith which has deeds (Joh 8:39).

Are you serious?

First, you twist the text from "faith" to "faithfulness,"
which is standard methodology in justifying your contra-NT teaching.

And secondly, ungodly = Gr: asebia, "disregard for and defiance of God's person," which is wicked.

Those in "defiance of God's person" do not have faith, a walk, nor obedience.

And you do both of the above simply for the sake of denying the plain meaning of Ro 4:5, above, which

separates faithfulness/good deeds from God's justification of the "defiant," who are not faithful,

placing justification solely on faith in Jesus Christ, which then results in faithfulness, a walk and obedience.

Faithfulness does not bring God's justification, God's justification brings faithfulness.

You've got Paul's cart before Paul's horse.

Your theology completely destroys Biblical repentance.

It's not my theology, it's the apostle Paul's theology.

And if in measuring God by you,
you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
turning him from his wickedness to repentance, faith and obedience in the Spirit,
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey, and
and you don't really know God.

Your notions of God are too human, and you make God too small.

the fundamental foundational flaw of this theology is "inability."

It's not man's theology, it's the apostle Paul's theology.

Your disagreement is with Paul.

The fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is unbelief of Ro 8:7-8, 4:5.

Ro 8:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked," not the righteous, for there are none righteous (Gal 3:22; Mt 5:1 w/ 7:11, 19:17).

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount to the spiritual powerlessness of unregenerate man

are based in your human rational inability to reconcile

Ro 8:7-8, 4:5 with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

And yes, the mercy of God throws "human reason out the window" because it is
based in divine wisdom, which human reason thinks is foolishness (1Co 1:24-25, 3:18-20),
and which you are amply demonstrating.

 

[nowyouseem033]

Calvinists believe that God condemns people for not loving him when God hasn't given them the power, in the first place, to do so.

Okay first of all Im a calvanist and I will attempt to answer your question or statement adequately as I know how.

God condemns people for their SIN... we both agree on that statement.

the second part is touchy.
I would say God is not obliged to give us any power whatsoever, and the fact that he has given some that power is a pure testimony to his grace. Whats the reason why?
Because God before time orchestrated a plan for a people. This people is specific and aligned to his choosing and purpose.
Why not all?
Because Gods Glory is not only demonstrated in His saving work through Jesus Christ but also Gods Glory is demonstrated in his righteous indignation of sinners.
Why should a holy God choose to give us any power whatsoever when we justly deserve hell?

 

[nowyouseem033]

God has the power to set you free.

Why should he give you the power????

 

[Elin]

The fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is unbelief of Ro 8:7-8.

Ro 8:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the
NT Word of God with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount to the spiritual powerlessness of unregenerate man

are based in your human rational inability to reconcile

Ro 8:7-8 with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

And yes, the mercy of God throws "human reason out the window" because it is
based in divine wisdom, which human reason thinks is foolishness (1Co 1:24-25, 3:18-20),
and which you are amply demonstrating.

The above is still on the table unaddressed.

 

[JesusIsAll]

The above is still on the table unaddressed.

Addition to the "This is what Elin says" closure section,

The above is still unaddressed.
The answer is non-responsive.
Just curious, who taught you to read?

Conservation of one's fingers and keytops can come into play, when touring the rabbit hole.

 

[Elin]

Addition to the "This is what Elin says" closure section,

The above is still unaddressed.
The answer is non-responsive.
Just curious, who taught you to read?

Conservation of one's fingers and keytops can come into play, when touring the rabbit hole.

You got da point. . .stayin' outta' da circular hole to nowhere.

Really like the last one on the list here!