Convoluted Calvinism: Or Reason Thrown Out The Window

[Skinski7]

Calvinists believe that God condemns people for not loving him when God hasn't given them the power, in the first place, to do so.



Westminster Confession
Chapter Six
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment Thereof

Chapter VI

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.

VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal.

Westminster Confession of Faith

 

[Elin]

Calvinists believe that
God condemns people for not loving him when God hasn't given them the power, in the first place, to do so.

You really don't understand the NT meaning of unregenerate, do you?

the fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is "inability."

It's not my theology, it's Paul's theology.
Your disagreement is not with me, it is with Paul.

Ro 8:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked,"

And if I may add, the fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is unbelief of Ro 8:7-8, 4:5.

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount to the spiritual powerlessness of unregenerate man

are based in your human rational inability to reconcile

Ro 8:7-8, 4:5 with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

 

[jdbear]

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Rom.7:9

This statement refutes the Westminster Confession of Faith.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Calvinists believe that God condemns people for not loving him when God hasn't given them the power, in the first place, to do so.

I don't usually give a title to a post, but would like to give this one a title, "Duh!"

Duh!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[BlackPlatypus]

John Calvin was an attorney first. He later decided he was a man of God and became a theologian and reformer. In truth he was a heretic.
There are Calvinist disciples that hope to lead the body church astray all throughout the internet and on Christian forums.

Calvin taught selective salvation and irresistible grace. I.E. part of his T.U.L.I.P doctrine. Irresistible grace was number 4, the I, in TULIP. That call that God makes only to the elect whom he has chosen to save.

Calvin was partly responsible for the Inquisitor General of Lyon being able to take Michael Servetus, who referred to Jesus as the Light of the World, into custody. Servetus was ultimately burned at the stake, using green wood, which made for a very slow torturous death, and with the acquiescence of John Calvin.

Calvinists believe that God condemns people for not loving him when God hasn't given them the power, in the first place, to do so.



Westminster Confession
Chapter Six
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment Thereof

Westminster Confession of Faith

 

[Skinski7]

Augustine of Hippo taught that un-elect infants go to hell.

...let us suppose certain twins, born of a certain harlot, and exposed that they might be taken up by others. One of them has expired without baptism; the other is baptized. What can we say was in this case the “fate” or the “fortune,” which are here absolutely nothing? What “acceptance of persons,” when with God there is none, even if there could be any such thing in these cases, seeing that they certainly had nothing for which the one could be preferred to the other, and no merits of their own,—whether good, for which the one might deserve to be baptized; or evil, for which the other might deserve to die without baptism? Were there any merits in their parents, when the father was a fornicator, the mother a harlot? But of whatever kind those merits were, there were certainly not any that were different in those who died in such different conditions, but all were common to both. If, then, neither fate, since no stars made them to differ; nor fortune, since no fortuitous accidents produce these things; nor the diversity of persons nor of merits have done this; what remains, so far as it refers to the baptized child, save the grace of God, which is given freely to vessels made unto honour; but, as it refers to the unbaptized child, the wrath of God, which is repaid to the vessels made for dishonour in respect of the deservings of the lump itself? But in that one which is baptized we constrain you to confess the grace of God, and convince you that no merit of its own preceded; but as to that one which died without baptism, why that sacrament should have been wanting to it, which even you confess to be needful for all ages, and what in that manner may have been punished in him, it is for you to see who will not have it that there is any original sin.

St. Augustine: Anti-Pelagian Writings
NPNF1-05. St. Augustine: Anti-Pelagian Writings - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

and...

Chapter 15.—The Apostle Meets the Question by Leaving It Unsolved.
Since in the case of those two twins we have without a doubt one and the same case, the difficulty of the question why the one died in one way, and the other in another, is solved by the apostle as it were by not solving it; for, when he had proposed something of the same kind about two twins, seeing that it was said (not of works, since they had not as yet done anything either of good or of evil, but of Him that calleth), “The older shall serve the younger,” 2644 and, “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated;”2645 and he had prolonged the horror of this deep thing even to the point of saying, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will, and whom He will He hardeneth:”2646 he perceived at once what the trouble was, and opposed to himself the words of a gainsayer which he was to check by apostolical authority. For he says, “You say, then, unto me, “Why doth He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?” And to him who says this he answered, “O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Doth the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power of the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?”

St. Augustine: Anti-Pelagian Writings
NPNF1-05. St. Augustine: Anti-Pelagian Writings - Christian Classics Ethereal Library



John Calvin (who was an avid supporter of Augustinian theology) also taught that un-elect infants go to hell and labels such a thing as the 'dreadful decree'...

Scripture proclaims that all were, in the person of one, made liable to eternal death. As this cannot be ascribed to nature, it is plain that it is owing to the wonderful counsel of God. It is very absurd 2232in these worthy defenders of the justice of God to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree. Should any one here inveigh against the prescience of God, he does it rashly and unadvisedly. For why, pray, should it be made a charge against the heavenly Judge, that he was not ignorant of what was to happen? Thus, if there is any just or plausible complaint, it must be directed against predestination. Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. For as it belongs to his wisdom to foreknow all future events, so it belongs to his power to rule and govern them by his hand. This question, like others, is skillfully explained by Augustine: “Let us confess with the greatest benefit, what we believe with the greatest truth, that the God and Lord of all things who made all things very good, both foreknow that evil was to arise out of good, and knew that it belonged to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil, rather than not permit evil to be, and so ordained the life of angels and men as to show in it, first, what free-will could do; and, secondly, what the benefit of his grace and his righteous judgment could do,” (August. Enchir. ad Laurent).

Institutes of the Christian Religion
Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


Calvinists believe that God condemns people for not loving Him when God hasn't given them the power, in the first place, to do so.

Calvinists logically also believe that God condemns babies for not loving Him.


Is this the kind of stuff Jesus taught? It is not even close. These Calvinists are totally deluded and they often shy away from discussing this stuff because it is so obviously without reason. When stuff like this is brought up they usually dismiss it by presenting out of context snippets of scripture.

Calvinism is convoluted and requires it adherents to throw reason out the window. Come let us reason together? Not with a Calvinist, for they worship the philosophical doctrines of men, specifically Augustinian philosophy as refined by Martin Luther and John Calvin.

 

[Skinski7]

Here is a passage from Genesis 4 where God clearly gives Cain a choice as to whether he rule over sin or let sin rule over him.

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Bible butcher John Calvin cannot assent to such sentiment so here is what he said...

And unto thee shall be his desire . Nearly all commentators refer this to sin, and think that, by this admonition, those depraved hosts are restrained which solicit and impel the mind of man. Therefore, according to their view, the meaning will be of this kind, 'If sin rises against thee to subdue thee, why dost thou indulge it, and not rather labor to restrain and control it? For it is thy part to subdue and bring into obedience those affections in thy flesh which thou perceivest to be opposed to the will of God, and rebellious against him.' But I suppose that Moses means something entirely different. I omit to notice that to the Hebrew word for sin is affixed the mark of the feminine gender, but that here two masculine relative pronouns are used. Certainly Moses does not treat particularly of the sin itself which was committed, but of the guilt which is contracted from it, and of the consequent condemnation. How, then, do these words. suit, 'Unto thee shall be his desire?' There will, however be no need for long refutation when I shall produce the genuine meaning of the expression. It rather seems to be a reproof, by which God charges the impious man with ingratitude, because he held in contempt the honor of primogeniture. The greater are the divine benefits with which any one of us is adorned, the more does he betray his impiety unless he endeavors earnestly to serve the Author of grace to whom he is under obligation. When Abel was regarded as his brother's inferior, he was, nevertheless, a diligent worshipper of God. But the firstborn worshipped God negligently and perfunctorily, though he had, by the Divine kindness, arrived at so high a dignity; and, therefore, God enlarges upon his sin, because he had not at least imitated his brother, whom he ought to have surpassed as far in piety as he did in the degree of honor. Moreover, this form of speech is common among the Hebrews, that the desire of the inferior should be towards him to whose will he is subject; thus Moses speaks of the woman, (Genesis 3:16,) that her desire should be to her husband. They, however, childishly trifle, who distort this passage to prove the freedom of the will; for if we grant that Cain was admonished of his duty in order that he might apply himself to the subjugation of sin, yet no inherent power of man is to be hence inferred; because it is certain that only by the grace of the Holy Spirit can the affections of the flesh be so mortified that they shall not prevail. Nor, truly, must we conclude, that as often as God commands anything we shall have strength to perform it, but rather we must hold fast the saying of Augustine, 'Give what thou commandest, and command what thou wilt.'

John Calvin's Bible Commentary
John Calvin's Bible Commentary - Genesis 4

So instead of believing what the scripture teaches John Calvin thought it prudent to butcher the text and impose a meaning which upholds the teachings of Augustine of Hippo.

John Calvin considers it childish to believe that Cain had a responsibility to apply himself and do that which is right. He instead believes that Cain was born a sin robot and had no choice in the matter. So just like un-elect infants being sent to hell, Cain was doomed from the start.

All this serves to glorify God somehow in the mind of the Calvinist. Again they just throw reason out the window and then somehow think it is "unreasonable" to reason.

 

[Skinski7]

The above theology is why pastors answer questions in this way...

Question

Hi there,

I was hoping you would be able to answer a question I have.

Is there any sin or sins that must be stopped before one can be forgiven by God? Is salvation related to actually stopping sin?

Thank you,

Scott

Answer

Wow, that’s a big question!
Most basically, of course, we must stop the sin of unbelief by believing the gospel message and trusting in God’s grace to save us. Other than that, I think that we must be willing to acknowledge and repent of any KNOWN sin. As we continue to grow in Christ, of course, He will make us aware of other sin in our lives, which, when confronted with them, we must be willing to confess and repent.
That’s a short answer to a big question, but I hope it’s helpful in some way.


Also: to be willing to TURN FROM our sin is different from actually being able to TOTALLY STOP sinning. We will continue to sin as long as we live. We receive salvation when we are willing to acknowledge we are sinners, trusting in Christ alone for our salvation.

In other words you can be raping babies and murdering people and all you have to do is "confess your sinfulness" and "want to stop." As far as actually stopping such things it is not necessary nor even possible in many cases. These people believe that Christian's will continue to engage in sins like this so long as they live.


Are news reports like the following of really of any surprise then?

August 28
Bastrop Youth Pastor Charged In Sex Assault Case
Bastrop youth pastor charged in sex assault case | KXAN.com

August 28
Former NC pastor gets at least 16 months for molesting boys
Former NC pastor gets at least 16 months for molesting boys | myfox8.com

August 26
Tabernacle Missionary Baptist Church settles child sex abuse lawsuit out of court
Tabernacle Missionary Baptist Church settles child sex abuse lawsuit out of court | Q13 FOX News

August 26
Report: Charlotte pastor hit with additional child sex charges
Report: Charlotte pastor hit with additional child sex charges - WNCN: News, Weather


I could post articles like that all day. News story after news story of utter corruption in the churches. What does Calvinism teach about such things? Well it teaches this...

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

Ch. 13 - Of the Perseverance of the Saints
Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminster Confession of Faith

Calvinists believe that one can remain justified (and thus enter the kingdom) even if engaged in child molestation and sexual abuse. Not to mention embezzlement, murder, lying, stealing, cheating and idolatry.

Check this out...

V. God does continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.

Ch. 9 - Of Justification
Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminster Confession of Faith


What's going on? The wolves are in the pulpits is what is going on and most professing Christian's are asleep at the switch, lapping up a meal of filthy doctrine which they perceive as the truth. It is time many of us woke up. Satan's minsters appear as ministers of righteousness, not in devil costumes.

[video=youtube;XPuhbm74JRU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPuhbm74JRU[/video]

 

[Elin]

I find it absolutely incredible beyond belief that people can actually believe that God would declare a child molester, rapist, murderer as righteous whilst they are still engaged in the very act.

That's because you measure God by you.

God justifies the wicked (Ro 4:5).

If you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
turning him from his wickedness to repentance,
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey, and
and you don't really know God.

Your notions of God are too human, and you make God too small.

These people believe that Christian's will continue to engage in sins like this so long as they live.

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." (Mt 22:29)

And we are agreed: the mercy of God throws human reason right out the window,

for it is based in divine wisdom, not human reason.

 

[Skinski7]

Elin,

It doesn't seem you have much to say?

Everything I have referenced above is pretty condemning of Calvinist philosophy so what do you do?

You ignore it and then answer within the confines of the little box which ensnares you.

Paul wasn't a sin robot lacking the ability to yield to God. Jesus confronted him on that road to Damascus yes and Paul heeded the message of that confrontation.

In fact you're double-tongued because you believe that Paul did not turn from his wickedness because you uphold the Romans 7 wretch to be Paul post conversion and regeneration. Even the Westminster Confession quotes referenced above plainly state that the sin continues.

My notions are too human and I make God too small because I believe we have a choice as to whether we yield ourselves to God or not? My notions are too human and I make God too small because I believe a child molester, rapist, liar and thief must forsake their wickedness in turning to God?

On the other hand you must believe that you are godly and presenting a big God because you believe that un-elect babies go to hell, that Cain had no choice and was doomed from the start, and that child molesters can be justified and yet still molest children?

The mercy of God throws human reason out the window? No. Your theology throws reason out the window and that is why people like you "snip scripture tidbits" out of their context and then force a twisted meaning upon them.

Jesus said this...

Luk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
Luk 14:17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Luk 14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
Luk 14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

You would have to believe that these people who were bidden but did rejected the invitation actually lacked any real ability to accept.

Do you just read passages like that and think "God's mercy cancels out human reason so it cannot really mean what it says?"

On the one hand you claim to believe the Bible but then on the other you deny what it says in many places. I suppose thinking "God's mercy cancels out human reason" is an effective way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance that such a position produces.

Jesus said this...

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Not "ye could not" but "ye would not."

 

[Kerry]

Calvinism is just that faith in Calvin. I would rather have my faith in the Cross.

 

[Fishbait]

Knowing what a person believes we can better understand why.

"What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?"

The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs:

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).



Read more: What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?​

 

[Skinski7]

So God justifies the wicked.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Calvinists love that verse. They love to snip it and show it off and pretend that they believe what the Bible teaches.

Yet they will never show you this...

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Where Paul is quoting David...

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

These wolves will always skip over the "no guile" part because it contradicts their belief that one is justified whilst in a manifest wicked state full of guile.

They will also ignore this...

Psa 32:11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

Due to believing in Total Depravity and the associated Total Inability being upright in heart is impossible.

So when Paul writes in Romans 4...

om 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

They are forced to disconnect that statement from...

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Faith being reckoned as righteousness has nothing to do with a faith that has a certain walk. This is why they ignore verse 12. They snip the earlier verse and ignore the context. They also ignore the last section of Romans 3 which states...

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Faith has nothing to do with establishing righteousness in the heart with these people. They view faith as "trusting in a legal transaction" where the "obedience of Jesus" is credited to the wicked persons account. It is so twisted what these people teach.

They ignore this...

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

So here was Abraham totally believing God and therefore yielding himself to God...

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

...this faith of Abraham being a clear example of genuine working faith, a faith that God reckons as righteousness apart from the deeds of the law (Rom 3:28), a faith that purifies the heart (Act 15:9), a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6), a faith which produces righteous deeds (Joh 8:39).

Yet the Calvinists ignore all that and teach that "Jesus obedience" is "credited to the sinners account" and that this is accessed by "trusting in the Finished Work of the Cross."

They think it is not "faith that is being reckoned as righteousness" like the Bible actually says but that it is "by faith that God reckons the righteousness of Jesus to the sinners account."

What did Jesus teach? Did He teach that His obedience was going to be a substitute for obedience of the elect? Did Jesus teach that people are born sin robots and lack the ability to follow Him? Did Jesus teach that He was going to pay their sin debt and thus cancel it out?

None of that stuff is in the Bible, yet by snipping little bits here and there (like Rom 4:5) above these wolves craft a message of death and make it look biblical to those who refuse to dig deep into what the Bible really teaches.

It is foolish to buy into these deceptions. I was a fool for years buying into a lot of this stuff, blindly believing the "experts" instead of digging for myself. It's time to wake up from this mess as there is massive theological deception everywhere.

 

[Skinski7]

Knowing what a person believes we can better understand why.

"What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?"

The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs:

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).​

Classic bible butchery in action. Snip, snip, snip.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Is Gen 6:5 teaching Total Depravity? The Bible says Noah was righteous.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Was Noah born Totally Depraved?

Genesis 6 says NOTHING about human beings being born totally depraved yet the Calvinists use it as a proof text.

How about...
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jeremiah opens with...

Jer 17:1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars;

Was Jeremiah's heart deceitful above all things, was Jeremiah deceitfully wicked? Of course not, he was a man of God. Jeremiah is making a general statement about the people of Judah. He is not making a declaration teaching that all human beings are born Totally depraved.

Was Abel's heart deceitful above all things and desperately wicked?

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

How about the parents of John the Baptist...

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Job? Was Job's heart deceitful above all things and desperately wicked?

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


Let's look at the last proof text...

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

As it is written. Where is that written? In Psalm 14...

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

These Bible butchers ignore the context. In Psalm 14:1 it speaks of the FOOL. It is the fool who is corrupt, who does no good. It is the fool who denies God who has gone aside and is filthy. Not one of these fools do good.

We see the same sentiment in Psalm 53...

Psa 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Psa 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.
Psa 53:5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.
Psa 53:6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

It is the workers of iniquity of which there are none righteous, not one. Not babies and not those who yield themselves to God in spirit and truth.

That is just the three references given for Total Depravity in the above quote. It is the same for every single verse and passages that these people cite. They are experts at snipping tidbits out of their true context in order to substantiate a lie and such activity easily fools many people who don't think or study independently.

Jesus taught...

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

There is such a thing as an honest and good heart. It is through repentance and faith that our hearts are changed which is why we must lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the implanted word which is able to save our souls.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It's simple. Turn from evil and yield to God. Read the words of Christ and obey them. He is the way, the truth and the life. Stop listening to all the voices who claim that you cannot or that you do not need to.

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that we are to simply "confess our sinfulness" and "trust in the finished work of Christ" and hey presto God suddenly counts us as righteous cos Jesus paid our sin debt and obeyed in our place. That is Satanic doctrine for workers of iniquity who want their ongoing sin cloaked.




​

 

[Elin]

.
All your palaver is just to avoid dealing with the word of God in the following:

the fundamental foundational flaw of this theology is "inability."

It's not man's theology, it's the apostle Paul's theology.
Your disagreement is with Paul.

Ro 8:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked," not the righteous, for there are none righteous.

The fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is unbelief of Ro 8:7-8, 4:5.

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount to the spiritual powerlessness of unregenerate man

are based in your human rational inability to reconcile

Ro 8:7-8, 4:5 with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

Yes, the word of God throws "human reason out the window" because it is
based in divine wisdom, which human reason thinks is foolishness (1Co 1:24-25, 3:18-20),
and which you are amply demonstrating.

Spare us all the palaver of unbelief and deal with the word of God above.

 

[Elin]

So God justifies the wicked.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Calvinists love that verse. They love to snip it and show it off and pretend that they believe what the Bible teaches.

Your ridicule is simply an overly obvious attempt to mask your FAIL in presenting a demonstration
of the meaning of Ro 4:5, without violating the text.

Your ridicule manifests the last refuge of your failed argument of unbelief.

And in your futility you do not even realize that setting Scripture against itself only proves
your misuderstanding of it, for God does not contradict himself.

Spare us all the futile attempt of your unbelieving palaver to beguile,

and deal with Ro 8:7-8, 4:5 without violating the two texts.

 

[Elin]

I find it absolutely incredible beyond belief that people can actually believe that God would declare a child molester, rapist, murderer as righteous whilst they are still engaged in the very act.

That's because you measure God by you.

God justifies the wicked (Ro 4:5), not the righteous, for there are none righteous.

If you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
turning him from his wickedness to repentance, faith and obedience,
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey, and
and you don't really know God.

Your notions of God are too human, and you make God too small.

These people believe that Christian's will continue to engage in sins like this so long as they live.

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." (Mt 22:29)

And we are agreed: the mercy of God throws "human reason right out the window,"

for it is based in divine wisdom, not human reason,

which thinks divine wisdom is foolishness (1Co 1:24-25, 3:18-20)

and what you are amply demonstrating.

Elin,

It doesn't seem you have much to say?

Everything I have referenced above is pretty condemning of Calvinist philosophy

Agreed, apart from the word of God I don't have much to say. . .unlike you.

Nor is it about Calvin, it's about the word of God in Ro 4:5, 8:7-8, which you do not believe.

It's no bigger than that.

And all your palaver doesn't mask or alter that.

 

[just-me]

Agreed, apart from the word of God I don't have much to say. . .unlike you.

Nor is it about Calvin, it's about the word of God in Ro 4:5, 8:7-8, which you do not believe.

It's no bigger than that.

And all your palaver doesn't mask or alter that.

Palaver=Misleading or beguiling speech. Thats' quite impressive. I have the right to reciprocate to the love of God and to be brought into a new life through Christ Jesus. I was created that way from my conception. Some may believe they have no choice, and some may think of themselves as being undeniable.

 

[Elin]

Elin,

It doesn't seem you have much to say?

Everything I have referenced above is pretty condemning of Calvinist philosophy

Agreed, apart from the word of God I don't have much to say. . .unlike you.

Nor is it about Calvin, that's just distraction

from the word of God in Ro 4:5, 8:7-8, which you do not believe.

It's no bigger than that.

And all your palaver doesn't mask or alter that.

Palaver=Misleading or beguiling speech. Thats' quite impressive

You're easily impressed.

And since you're doing Skinski's post, would you like to address Ro 4:5, 8:7-8 for him, without violated the texts?

 

[just-me]

You're easily impressed.

And since you're doing Skinski's post, would you like to address Ro 4:5, 8:7-8 for him, without violated the texts?

No. I don't want a confrontation. Thanks anyway. Kidding around with you is fine with me, but anything more than that would be against the Word since you have proven yourself as being undeniable. "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned ; and avoid them."

Is romans 4:5 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead? I might be wrong there, just trying to put things in proper perspective. (spiritually speaking) as I remember Romans 8:7-8

Have a blessed day gal.