"Losing Salvation"

sealabeag · Aug 31, 2014

So I have seen countless threads on here discussing "being saved", "Losing your salvation", etc.

So I want to try to ask this question without using those terms.

I want to know this:
Do you believe that someone who becomes a believer in Christ, and a follower of His, i.e A Christian, can for any reason NOT go to heaven?
Some examples would be;
1. A person becomes a Christian but then they decide they want to commit sin, e.g Murder, Rape, whatever. They die unrepentant.
2. A Christian, for one reason or another, consciously decides that they no longer want to follow Christ. So they turn from Him and, although they know He exists, don't want Him in their life.

Would either of these people potentially not go to Heaven?
Why would Christ force someone, even a former Christian, to live with Him eternally if they decide they don't want to?

Responses please.

P.S. It would be great if people could just answer my question without this thread descending into chaos.

Thanks.

T_Laurich · Aug 31, 2014

It all relies in the heart... Is your heart centered on Christ... Do you want Christ more than anything else...
I commit more sins than I can count... And I have forgotten every time I have lied... But if I turn from those sins and seek Christ I am saved...

If they die without their heart given to Christ then yes they will not be saved... If they die given their heart to Christ then they are saved...

If you consciously turn from Christ most likely you have also turned your heart from Him. He sits and knocks at the door and all we have to do is answer... Salvation is not based off of sin. Salvation is based off of grace alone.

Your sins are you separating yourself from God, no many how many you commit you are still separated... Christ is the bridge, through the death on the cross...

Everything resides on you enacting your free-will to accept Christ into your heart... He does not force anyone. Some atheists have said; living with God would be more of a hell then hell itself for them...

You have to turn from your sin/ repent to be saved... A change in heart is required...

sassylady · Aug 31, 2014

Only God knows the answer to that, and it is dangerous to presume upon Him by such a break in fellowship. It is by far better to just never commit those acts.

BlackPlatypus · Aug 31, 2014

Jesus promise of eternal life and salvation is irrevocable.
This doesn't mean someone can never make their free choice to walk away from God, Christ, and live the ways of the world. That's called, backsliding.

However, that doesn't mean Jesus turns his back on you. The parable of the prodigal son is like unto what you're asking here.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We can not work our way into Heaven. Our work, righteous as it may be, does not gain us eternal life. Nor does it retain the grace of God's eternal salvation. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

(Link)John 15:1-6

(Link) Luke 10 Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two

psychomom · Aug 31, 2014

sealabeag said:

it would be great, wouldn't it?

mailmandan · Aug 31, 2014

sealabeag said:

No.

Oxymoron. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In the latter part of John chapter six, after Jesus' hard sayings about partaking of His flesh and blood, some of His disciples complained. We are told that Jesus knew from the beginning who did not believe (v. 64). In verse 66 it says, "From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more." This group had been called 'disciples', but Jesus said they did not believe, and finally they left. From Jesus' very words, we know that they were not saved in the first place.

Why would a genuine born again Christian decide they don't want to live with Christ eternally and end up being forced to? It sounds to me like this describes someone whose faith was never firmly rooted and established in Christ to begin with. That is not a genuine former Christian but a nominal (in name only) Christian.

No chaos from me!

Jimbone · Aug 31, 2014

mailmandan said:

I agree with you 100% on this. I mean it's hard to say for sure but I don't see how anyone could be filled with the true power of the Holy Spirit and then choose to walk away from it later. To me that just like saying God wasn't powerful enough, and to know God and the sacrifice of His only son and say it isn't enough for you (who ever it may be) seems like an impossible situation to me. His power is just too great and once you are transformed by His grace I don't see that as a two way street. That's my personal view on the question.

BlackPlatypus · Aug 31, 2014

psychomom said:

So far so good.

Stephen63 · Aug 31, 2014

sealabeag said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (of the church), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There it is.... so the answer is yes. When others try to refute that, it will only solidify this truth, for many of them will show a bad attitude as they are disputing it. Paul in his epistles is speaking only to the church about these things..... because it can happen to them. It would be ridiculous & vain to warn them about these things if it could never happen to them, yes?

JesusIsAll · Aug 31, 2014

The prodigal son saw from where he had fallen, was sorrowful over what he had done and his condition. The prodigal son went humbly back to his father, willing to be a lowly servant, was not dragged back by his father.

You turn your back on God or feel He is mocked that you can practice sin, that you can be a hypocrite that cheapens the blood of Jesus Christ, be prepared for hell. Also, it would be foolish to argue that all prodigal sons come back. I'm sure, to extend the example, there are many grief stricken parents whose once Christian children came to bad ends for sin. And, please, just put away the old canard, "Well, they were never really saved!" Why? Because you don't know that they were never saved, you can't know that, and unsubstantiated ignorance is nothing to base any doctrine on. I can't count the times people bereft of any real evidence fall back on that "plug the button hole" phrase that has no substance in reality, no actual knowledge behind it. It's also arrogant to the point of stupidity. So you know the hearts and minds of others, the status of their salvation, can divine God's judgment as to other people? So YOU say they were never really saved? Now, who are you?

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

JesusIsAll · Aug 31, 2014

But the way, I saw one of these easy believism people here the other day state, outright, that we should enjoy our sin, I suppose since some lip service to Jesus provides a "get out of hell free" card. This is the first time I've ever seen anybody claiming Christianity state we should rejoice in sin, since it's paid for, could not believe what I was reading.

JesusIsAll · Aug 31, 2014

JesusIsAll said:

BY the way... sorry. Desperately need some coffee.

sealabeag · Aug 31, 2014

Okay so differing opinions, but civil so far! Thanks for the replies.

Personally I am very much of the opinion that a Christian can fall away into sin and it is possible for them to die unrepentantly in that state, and therefore to go to Hell. Now I'm in no way judging who or who will not go to Hell.
But I do not agree that you can say "Well that person was never REALLY a Christian, or was never REALLY `saved`.
Only God knows their heart.

For the "you cannot lose salvation" people, here's a scenario:

I am a Christian. Tomorrow I become sick or suffer some very painful situation, maybe I am raped, who knows. I decide that I cannot love God , because He has allowed this suffering to happen to me. I know He exists but I don't love Him anymore. I don't want to be with Him. So I consciously decide that I no longer want anything to do with God. I don't want to be with Him in eternity. What happens?

Thanks in advance

JesusIsAll · Aug 31, 2014

sealabeag said:

Renouncing your faith, you are rejecting Jesus Christ. Clearly, Jesus Christ is no longer your Lord. You don't love God, are rather even allied with Satan then. You have rejected to walk in the light of your Lord by the Holy Spirit. You are a dog, returned to his vomit. You live and die this way, you do not repent of being without faith, you will be judged and thrown in the lake of fire, where unbelievers go. But I also believe the Lord would do all things to draw such a hurt person back, yet only in one's individual will to abide in Him, free will of all a fact of our lives, and our God not one of compulsion. Whatever the case, a faithless ally of Satan will have no place in the kingdom of heaven. This would be such a mockery of God, otherwise, an insult to any believer who suffered for their faith, especially the Lord Jesus, whose very blood is trampled on.

gb9 · Aug 31, 2014

o.k, so the above is true if you were to die without coming back to Christ. but everyday you are alive you have a chance to come back. the lose salvation, or not comes down to this: no one other than you and God can truly know what you think at the deepest levels. because that is where it counts.

biscuit · Aug 31, 2014

1. A person becomes a Christian but then they decide they want to commit sin, e.g Murder, Rape, whatever. They die unrepentant.
2. A Christian, for one reason or another, consciously decides that they no longer want to follow Christ. So they turn from Him and, although they know He exists, don't want Him in their life.

Would either of these people potentially not go to Heaven?
Why would Christ force someone, even a former Christian, to live with Him eternally if they decide they don't want to?

The answer is NO!!! It is Christ who chooses who He wants in heaven. He is not going to allow so-called Christians who doesn't believe in Him or have no desire to be with Him, be given a free pass. Secondly, these individuals were probably never 'saved' in the first place.

psychomom · Aug 31, 2014

sealabeag said:

because that happened...and again i was a bit traumatized (and angry) when my 9 yo nephew died 3 days before Christmas of exposure...and my sister (a widow) suffered so...
because close friends had a baby with Trisomy 18 who died at 4 months and i saw what her (Christian) parents went through...

God was with us through the anger, but we never lost belief in Him. we never were able to make a conscious decision to say we didn't want to be with God anymore. He caused us to persevere in those trials.

or as my friend Anna put it when she was so angry after her daughter died,
"He's God. What am i gonna do, break up with Him?"

God is fully able to keep those whom He has saved.

oldhermit · Aug 31, 2014

sealabeag said:

So I have seen countless threads on here discussing "being saved", "Losing your salvation", etc.

So I want to try to ask this question without using those terms.

I want to know this:
Do you believe that someone who becomes a believer in Christ, and a follower of His, i.e A Christian, can for any reason NOT go to heaven?
Some examples would be;
1. A person becomes a Christian but then they decide they want to commit sin, e.g Murder, Rape, whatever. They die unrepentant.
2. A Christian, for one reason or another, consciously decides that they no longer want to follow Christ. So they turn from Him and, although they know He exists, don't want Him in their life.

Would either of these people potentially not go to Heaven?
Why would Christ force someone, even a former Christian, to live with Him eternally if they decide they don't want to?

Responses please.

P.S. It would be great if people could just answer my question without this thread descending into chaos.

Thanks.

The short answer to you question is No. They would not go to heaven.

Grace-Like-Rain · Aug 31, 2014

sealabeag said:

There are two possibilities here.

One is that you never really knew Christ. It is sadly common for people to believe they are saved - perhaps because of how they were raised, or because they affiliate themselves with a particular denomination, or repeated a prayer - when in reality they have no personal relationship with God or Christ at all.

The other is that you are, for whatever reason, being allowed to wander for a while. The Israelites went through long periods of wandering. Jonah ran away. The "lost sheep" became lost. The prodigal son left. All were returned - by God - in the end. His word shall not return void. (Isaiah 55:11) Jesus says, "Of those whom you have given me, I lost not one." (John 18:9)

The simple truth of the matter is that you did nothing of yourself to earn your salvation. And you can do nothing to lose it once you have been bought and redeemed. Your salvation rests in the hand of God. We have no power to "keep it". Praise God for his mercy and faithfulness. "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)

vic1980 · Aug 31, 2014

John 1:11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,but of God.

One more time

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

May God Bless you all

"Losing Salvation"

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