Could anyone explain this?

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Channa

Senior Member
Mar 1, 2014
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#1
Dear people,

A while ago I read Hebrews 6:4-6
' 4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.'
Does that mean that a man, first christian, then atheist, then christian again couldn't be bring to repentence again?

Thanks for reading,
Channa
 
Jun 4, 2014
1,849
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#2
Not at all. It means that for anyone who have tasted of the truth and fall back, they cannot ever be saved. The question should be then, is the truth really taught?

I believe all men will be saved when it is all said and done. For me to then fall away after the tasting of that heavenly gift, there would remain no more sacrifice for my sins. But it also works both ways! After tasting of this wonderful truth that all will be saved as Christ came to do, how can I go back? To fear? It is impossible for me to accept anything less!

It is that inner belief that gives me the courage to speak as I do about the world I presently see in the riddance of what we call money.
 
Jun 13, 2014
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#3
Whoa! Please read the whole book of Hebrews and understand that it was directed to a sect of Jews who tried to mix the law with the 'Way'. Which is the New Covenant. The Author of Hebrews was digressing on pointless Levitical practices to earn salvation through the continual sacrificing of animals blood. Paul campaigned with these individuals who found it hard to abstain from Mitzvah or commonly known as the Law of Moses. This scripture is used as a weapon to still the hope of others and it contradicts this scripture alone....

Matthew 12:31 [TABLE="class: bibleTable"]
[TR]
[TD]


[/TD]


[TD]“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Therefore we can conclude that ALL MANNER OF SIN WILL BE FORGIVEN, however one sin will not have forgiveness and that's and blaspheme against the Spirit





Dear people,

A while ago I read Hebrews 6:4-6
' 4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.'
Does that mean that a man, first christian, then atheist, then christian again couldn't be bring to repentence again?

Thanks for reading,
Channa
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#4
Lets use a little biblical logic here....

1. If we say we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us.
2. If we say that we have not sinned we are liars...

So...if this teaches that one can be saved and then sin to the point that you loose salvation that cannot be re-gained then ALL are LOST and will cook.

It simply means that it is IMPOSSIBLE to KNOW JESUS biblically and then do something that causes you to loose your salvation......because it is IMPOSSIBLE to be renewed into that faith.

Concerning superman9's comment...boiled down blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is UNBELIEF as they had attributed the work of Christ dia the Holy Spirit to the work and power of the devil which is a state of UNBELIEF into Jesus and his work...

If you do not believe that I am not HE...you will dies in your sins<----unbelief into Jesus = LOST

It is impossible to be renewed unto saving repentance because YOU CANNOT LOOSE YOUR SALVATION.......as it is SECURE in the PERFECT FAITH OF JESUS and HIS COMPLETED work which SATISFIED the Heavenly Father..........It is the SPIRIT that is BORN again and It does not sin, cannot sin and is eternally sealed and secure in Christ.....!

What is tragic is three things....
1. People who teach you can loose your salvation take this out of context to support their heretical views..
2. People who teach you can loose your salvation NEVER SIN and OR LOOSE THEIR SALVATION
3. People who teach you can loose your salvation have never been re-saved.........because the have NEVER LOST IT because they are so RIGHTEOUS in their OWN WORKS!
 
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Channa

Senior Member
Mar 1, 2014
381
2
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#5
Thanks! I asked it bc it didn't make sense. That's all. I understand what you say, right? :)
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
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#6
Dear people,
A while ago I read Hebrews 6:4-6
' 4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.'
Does that mean that a man, first christian, then atheist, then christian again couldn't be bring to repentence again?

Channa
First, an issue. This is only part of a quote, "part" of the context. Getting the truth from a small selection, when we do not take the rest of it into consideration always leads to problems, even if you get that particular passage right, by luck, the habit will cause you to misinterpret 95% of them or more. Here’s some more of the context that gives us some clues:

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits.

(Ok, as was stated before, we are talking about Jewish “Believers”. Some won’t give that point, although they should, considering the next verse.)

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

(Ta da. These ARE Christians, notice I didn’t say were. I said ARE. There is a good reason. Primarily, because I do not believe in altering the meaning of words because I have a doctrinal axe to grind, so I won’t practice hermeneutical contortionism to get things to fit with my beliefs. I will use logic, reason, a meaning for words that fits everywhere the same word/root word is used in the scripture(Septuagint and all the major documents for the N.T. combined, which prevents the, but this meaning is better in this part(Because I can make it fit my beliefs) methodologies.)

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

(Again, CHRISTIANS.)

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

(To have TRULY known Christ, to TRULY have truth, to KNOW, to have ACCEPTED, to BE CHRIST’S and then … to turn away is not a good thing.)

7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

(This is what SHOULD BE. This is what a true Christian’s life should result in. Unfortunately, this is not the case for these people. Nor is it for those that repeat it for today.)

8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


(I know, see … they end up being burned, just as it says. But actually, no it doesn’t. It says “It” ends up being burned. Could be referring to the context, right. Thorns and thistles though? Are those “its” yes. Are we talking about what the Christians have done with their lives, their “fruits” so to speak? Those are the “thorns and thistles”, Right? Be honest. Have integrity. People are never referred to as “its” in scripture, are they? Check to be sure, don’t take my word for it.

There’s another hint that tells us that the people aren’t burning. Does it say “These men are cursed”. Read it again. Doesn’t “quite” say that, does it. There is a word that is very important, that is in the text, but that many don’t like because they want the verse to support their beliefs with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, and will go to great lengths to “use” passages that aren’t clear without a good amount of work and study, mean what they want it to mean. That is the word “close”. They aren’t “cursed”. They are “Close” to being cursed. If I said that I was close to having an accident, did I have an accident? If I say I was close to winning the lottery, did I win? If I am close to being cursed, am I cursed? Sorry for those who dislike the words used, but no. These people are not “cursed”. These people are not lost and headed for hell.


But something, “It”, is going to be burned. Yes, from the context it is the thorns and thistles that they grow in their life that should be bringing forth something good. What a ludicrous concept right? Things people do with their lives being burned, resulting in people not being cursed, but being close to being cursed? Who teaches such things? Well, when you find difficult concepts, not only is the meaning of words, what they refer to, all of the conversation, flow of thought, flow of discussion … surrounding them important, but also any other passages that “might” apply to the topic at hand. But where are we going to find another topic where people grow thorns and thistles in their lives, don’t grow what they should be growing, and that the thorns and thistles end up being burned even though the person is still a Christian and is still going to end up in heaven, albeit without any rewards whatsoever? This is why doing your homework is so important. Here you go:

1Co 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.

(hmm. What is growing … could be similar. Let’s see.)

7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

(Ok, planting, watering, growth … men plant, God causes the growth … starting to lose the connection, right?)

8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

(We are God’s field. Ok, that works a bit. We have another analogy starting, that of creating a building. That’s new.)

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

(ahh, of, so instead of the field analogy, we shifted to a building analogy, instead of planting, we are building. Paul laid a foundation into men’s lives, but the responsibility for what gets built on that foundation is the responsibility of each individual man. Could fit, a little different, but could fit.)

1Co 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

(No, we cannot lay another foundation. Once Christ is laid, that’s it. The only choice is what we, (each man) builds on that foundation with. So what are the options? )

1Co 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

(thorns, thistles … hmm building on a life with good, or evil, right, wrong, according to the word of God, or in spite of it, contrary to what God says and means … each man chooses what he does with his own life, right? Thorns and thistles “might fit perfectly. Let’s see.)

1Co 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

(It will be revealed with fire. Now we are talking. That fits. More burning in hell for all eternity because Christians left figuring out and serving the truth to doing their own thing, right?

1Co 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

(Whoa, whoa, being burned, and getting “rewards” afterwards? How does a person go to hell and get rewards. Are we talking purgatory here? Pain and agony, but not permanently? Some think so. I don’t, but some think so. What gets burned up by the way? The “its”, the wood, hay, stubble … that men build on the foundation with, or the man? Or the foundation for that matter? What gets burned up? What is left?)

1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

(Boy, what a nice fit. “Close to being cursed” If any man’s works are burned up he will suffer loss. Note: not pain, not agony … not loss of salvation. HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED. But without anything to show for it, he will be as “close” to being cursed as he can get.)

Admittedly, getting to truth is much more work than interpreting passages in the light of our beliefs and holding fast to our beliefs because we have gathered the passages, facts, data … that we can “use” to “prove” our “beliefs” true to ourselves, and the passages, facts data … that we can “use” to “prove” all “opposing beliefs” false. But the question is, are we going to leave out words, alter meaning of words and passages from the full context, ignore other passages that might apply and their context and the meaning of the words used there … or do we want to get to the truth of what the word of God says, regardless of what it does to our beliefs? What we do, as a habit and way of life, shows where we are.
As with everything, check to see if this fits with the verses, passages, all of scripture, with all of it cut straight, all of the words interpreted as they should be, all similar passages considered and also rightly divided in the context they are found in … If I have distorted the meaning of the word of God, point out where I goofed.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#7
Thanks! I asked it bc it didn't make sense. That's all. I understand what you say, right? :)
Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians who were considering returning to Judaism because of the rejection and persecution by their families and former friends.

The writer of Hebrews is warning them that to return to Judaism is to reject Christ and the only sacrifice for their sin, leaving them with no forgiveness of their sin, and no sacrifice to forgive them.
If they return of Judaism they will die in their sin.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
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#8
Elin,

To believe that you must change the meaning of scripture, and change the meaning of the word of God. You might be able to use a different passage for that, but most definitely, unless you want to ignore meaning, leave out words, change what is being referred to in the sentence's, you cannot say these people are going to hell in EITHER of the passages listed. If you can, show me how those words aren't there. Show me that the burning does not refer to the thorns and thistles. I am open to altering my beliefs. Show me how Close to anything means that, you actually ended up with it. You are "close" to the kingdom of heaven for example. Did that mean that the person was a Christian at that moment? Look up all of the places that same word/root word is used throughout the Old Testament Septuagint and the N.T. manuscripts. It is always there. Sorry, not changing scripture for you.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#9
This goes along with other scriptures that talk about those who have heard the good news/truth, but continue to walk in darkness or willful sin it is impossible to bring them to repentance because they choose not to stop doing their wrongful acts.
So they put to shame what our Lord told them about repentance, baptism, confession, and forgiveness by throwing them away as if they don't matter or are not important.

Jesus would not have mentioned all these topics if they did not matter, true believers in Him observe and follow all His teachings as He commanded in the Great Commission. These people have just tasted ( mere belief ) but choose not to follow His teachings. So they put what He taught to an open shame.
 
K

Kaycie

Guest
#10
I will give an example of what I think it means...

Let's say Bobo the clown reads the bible, genuinely believes it, gets baptized, and attends church faithfully for years. Then one day Bobo the clown watches a movie, and in that movie someone is worshiping a statue called Buddha. He is impressed with the self-disciplinary practices and the uniforms of the people who worship Buddha. So he calls up his (old) church and says, "I'm leaving the life of Christ to worship Buddha, bye-bye! And then he goes out and purchases this statue, sets it up in his home, and worships it faithfully for years. Until one day it's just not for him anymore. He goes back to his old church and says, "Can you treat me like a worldly person that you evangelize to and allow me to get baptized back into the church? And they say to him, "You cannot get baptized again and have Christ die again for your sake- He already did and you left." Well, says Bobo the clown, "Can I come back like the prodigal son came back?" And they said, "The prodigal son came back to his father- but you have divorced your father from being your father. He adopted you and you subjected him to public disgrace by leaving that adoption. Therefore, even if WE allowed you back physically, God will not allow you back spiritually- so it would be of no effect for you."
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#11
Elin said:
Channa said:
Dear people,

A while ago I read Hebrews 6:4-6
' 4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away,
it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing
they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.
'
Does that mean that a man, first christian, then atheist, then christian again couldn't be bring to repentence again?
Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians who were considering returning to Judaism because of the rejection and persecution by their families and former friends.

The writer of Hebrews is warning them that
to return to Judaism is to reject Christ and the only sacrifice for their sin, leaving them with no forgiveness of their sin, and no sacrifice to forgive them.
If they return of Judaism they will die in their sin
.
Elin,

To believe that you must change the meaning of scripture, and change the meaning of the word of God. You might be able to use a different passage for that, but most definitely, unless you want to ignore meaning, leave out words, change what is being referred to in the sentence's,
you cannot say these people are going to hell in EITHER of the passages listed. If you can, show me how those words aren't there.
Show me that the burning does not refer to the thorns and thistles
. I am open to altering my beliefs. Show me how Close to anything means that, you actually ended up with it. You are "close" to the kingdom of heaven for example. Did that mean that the person was a Christian at that moment? Look up all of the places that same word/root word is used throughout the Old Testament Septuagint and the N.T. manuscripts. It is always there. Sorry, not changing scripture for you.
Okay, I'm not understanding you.

So let's start with that other passage you refer to above.

What is the passage?
 
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EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
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#12
Elin,

Read my complete post on the meaning of the Hebrews passage in the rest of the context, and the parallel passage that applies. What I am saying is that the meaning of the words in that Hebrew passage completely prevents the possible option of believing that these people end up lost and headed for hell. You don't have to agree, but at least go through what I wrote, examine the scriptures to see if what I say about the passage, and the parallel passage is so, and let me know. If I have left out any words, or altered the meaning of any of them, in the context in which they are found, or changed the meaning so that it doesn't fit with everywhere the same words/root words are used, again point that out.

What I am saying is that, from what is actually said, there is no way to claim ANY ONE loses their salvation based on the wording in the Hebrews passage. If you want to prove that belief true, you will have to use a different verse. This passage CANNOT take on that meaning. It is impossible given the meaning of the words used, the constructs of the sentences ... so, if you want to support losing your salvation, you must go elsewhere. Bring up a different passage, or show where I misinterpreted this one in my first post.

The other passage that is a direct parallel to the Hebrews passage is listed. If you need me to repost the entire thing, I suppose I can, but it is about 5-6 posts above this one.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
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#13
Kaycee,

Really interesting thinking. Renewing someone to repentance means that it is impossible to get them to want to come back, to get them to want to give up what they have left Christ for, ... They already had the full truth, and they willfully gave it up. No, they didn't give up salvation or they would be "cursed". They aren't "cursed", just "close".

The point is, they aren't coming back, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Please note that this is different from those that "Went out for they were never of us." or those of which Jesus says n Mat. 7, "Depart from Me ye who work iniquity for I never knew you.". Those would be different groups.
 
K

Kaycie

Guest
#14
So what you're saying is that they are not FORBIDDEN to come back- just that they won't want to? Well it doesn't matter what the reason is, they will not come back. But I still believe that no one is ALLOWED (and therefore is forbidden) to put Christ to death more than once per person.

Kaycee,

Really interesting thinking. Renewing someone to repentance means that it is impossible to get them to want to come back, to get them to want to give up what they have left Christ for, ... They already had the full truth, and they willfully gave it up. No, they didn't give up salvation or they would be "cursed". They aren't "cursed", just "close".

The point is, they aren't coming back, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Please note that this is different from those that "Went out for they were never of us." or those of which Jesus says n Mat. 7, "Depart from Me ye who work iniquity for I never knew you.". Those would be different groups.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#15
Elin,

Read my complete post on the meaning of the Hebrews passage in the rest of the context, and the parallel passage that applies. What I am saying is that
the meaning of the words in that Hebrew passage completely prevents the possible option of believing that these people end up lost and headed for hell. You don't have to agree, but at least go through what I wrote, examine the scriptures to
see if what I say about the passage, and the parallel passage is so, and let me know. If I have left out any words, or altered the meaning of any of them, in the context in which they are found, or changed the meaning so that it doesn't fit with everywhere the same words/root words are used, again point that out.

What I am saying is that, from what is actually said,
there is no way to claim ANY ONE loses their salvation based on the wording in the Hebrews passage
.
Correct, if you are truly saved, you cannot lose your salvation.

But if these guys "go out" from Christianity, they show they were never really saved in the first place (1Jn 2:19).

If you want to prove that belief true, you will have to use a different verse. This passage CANNOT take on that meaning. It is impossible given the meaning of the words used, the constructs of the sentences ... so,
if you want to support losing your salvation, you must go elsewhere.
Agreed. . .and there is no where else to go because you cannot lose your salvation.

1Jn 2:19 shows the meaning of to apostasize, or fall away.
"They went out from us because they did not belong to us (they were not true believers)."

Bring up a different passage, or show where I misinterpreted this one in my first post.

The other passage that is a direct parallel to the Hebrews passage is listed. If you need me to repost the entire thing, I suppose I can, but it is about 5-6 posts above this one.
Okay, I read your other post, and Heb 6:7-8 seems to be the crux of your argument.

Heb 6:7-8 is a short parable illustrating the warning just given in vv. 4-6 (as in Jn 15:5-6).
As a parable it applies to the situation.
The parable compares the Hebrews of vv. 4-6, who do not combine the word of the gospel with faith (4:2),
to land that drinks rain but produces worthless thorns and thistles, is in danger of being cursed,
and in the end will be burned.

So Heb 6:7-8 does apply to those in Heb 6:4-6, who would show by their going out (1 Jn 2:19)
that they were never saved in the first place.

You cannot lose a salvation you never had.
 
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EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
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#16
Elin,

The problem is that these people are indeed Christians, and no, they do not lose their salvation. Read the rest of the long post above where it goes through the details and then goes through the parallel passage. No, this is not about losing salvation. It is not about them going out from us for they were never of us in the first place. THESE PEOPLE ARE FELLOW PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and are not cursed and headed for hell for their decisions, they are "CLOSE" to being cursed, but not cursed, and all of their potential rewards are lost as through fire, even though they themselves are still saved.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
(Ta da. These ARE Christians, notice I didn’t say "were". I said ARE. They are partakers of the Holy Spirit! Who gets the Holy Spirit? When? Only Christians, right? According to Ephesians 1, the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge of our future inheritance. You can't get the pledge if you aren't going. Shoot, if you don't make it, for any reason, you keep the pledge. that's what a pledge is.)
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
(Again, CHRISTIANS.)

You can't get beyond the partakers of the Holy Spirit part. Again, I don't want to "Change" the meaning of the word of God in any way. Just teach what it says and means. If you can show me one person "AFTER Pentecost", who was made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" and is not Christian, I will change my view. If not, then as I will not remove the word "close" for those that want to believe these people are "cursed" and headed for hell, and I will not change the fact that what is burnt up is the works that they build on the foundation, as that is the meaning of the wording used, nor can I change the fact that their being "close" to being cursed, but not "cursed" requires that they still be headed for heaven as the other parallel passage listed confirms.

The passage says what it says, means what it means, and no one, not me, not you, not anyone else, has the right to alter what it says and means to force it to conform to our beliefs. If it doesn't say what I say it does, let's go over the passage together and you can show me where I have missed the context, flow of thought, flow of discussion, or that I have altered the meaning of the words/root words from their consistent meaning that they have throughout the scriptures. I am open to being wrong. Just prevent undistorted evidence.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#17
Elin,

The problem is that these people are indeed Christians, and no, they do not lose their salvation. Read the rest of the long post above where it goes through the details and then goes through the parallel passage. No, this is not about losing salvation. It is not about them going out from us for they were never of us in the first place. THESE PEOPLE ARE FELLOW PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,
But doesn't Jesus also show (Mt 7:21-23) some who say they believe in him and who
partake of the Holy Spirit in gifts of prophesying, driving out demons, and performing miracles,
but who are not saved?

We find the same in Ac 19:13-20.

Jesus cautions his disciples about rejoicing that the spirits submit to them (Lk 10:20),
because that does not always mean one is born of God and saved.

Extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit do not necessarily mean one is saved.
Only fruits of the Spirit show one is saved, as Paul cautions in 1Co 13:2.
And every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (Mt 7:19).


and are not cursed and headed for hell for their decisions,
they are "CLOSE" to being cursed, but not cursed,
Not yet cursed because they are only considering a return to Judaism,
which would be a rejection of Jesus Christ and his saving sacrifice for sin.

If they make a decision to return to Judaism, they would be cursed,
and would be as the parable of vv. 7-8, land that drinks the rain but produces
worthless thorns and thistles, good only for burning in the fire.


and all of their potential rewards are lost as through fire, even though they themselves are still saved.
That is 1Co 3:13-15 which applies to the saved, but anyone who actually abandons Christ
and his saving sacrifice, as these Hebrews were thinking of doing, is not really saved,
they are branches who do not remain in the vine, but who wither, and are
thrown into the fire and burned (Jn 15:5-6).

You can't get beyond the partakers of the Holy Spirit part. Again, I don't want to "Change" the meaning of the word of God in any way. Just teach what it says and means. If you can
show me one person "AFTER Pentecost", who was made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" and is not Christian, I will change my view.
I understand your certainty on this point, and your requirement is a true one.

But would that not be those of Mt 7:21-23?

And I can certainly appreciate your inflexibleness regarding the word of God written.
 
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D

Delivery

Guest
#18
Dear people,

A while ago I read Hebrews 6:4-6
' 4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.'
Does that mean that a man, first christian, then atheist, then christian again couldn't be bring to repentence again?



Thanks for reading,
Channa
Yes. That's exactly what it means. It means exactly what it says. If you read the whole book of Hebrews in context you'll see why the writer says this.

10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

In the above verses in Hebrews 10 it's talking about how the Jews in old testament times had to come every year to make sacrifices of bulls and goats etc. for the sins of the people. The reason they had to keep coming back every year to keep making these sacrifices is because the blood of these animals could never permanently take away the sins of the people.

Then it talks about the sacrifice Jesus made.

10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The new covenant (or testament) was established by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. We are sanctified, or washed clean by the blood of the lamb forever. We don't have to keep coming back and getting re-saved, unsaved, re-saved, then un-saved, then repent again and get re-saved. We are saved once and for all once we receive Jesus.

10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You are cleansed of all your sins and made perfect forever once you receive Jesus. These verses are really about once saved, always saved.

10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Because your sins are completely forgiven and washed clean by the one blood sacrifice for sins, your sins are completely purged out so, therefore, you don't need to keep coming back to have your sins purged by more blood sacrifices like they did in old testament times.Your sins are completely purged by the blood of Jesus once and for all.

9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

So here we see that blood sacrifices are necessary for the purging of sins. Jesus' sacrifice was different than the blood sacrifices of the bulls and goats in the old testament. If you could lose your salvation and then need to have your sins purged again, then Jesus would have had to suffer the same agonizing death over and over again since the foundation of the world. That's what it's saying. So, back to the verse you quoted:

6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

What it's saying is that if somebody could fall away so much that they lose their salvation it would be impossible for them to be renewed again to repentance, because it means that since there sins have to be purged again in order to renew them to repentance, it means another blood sacrifice would have to be made for them. That's why it says they would be crucifying the Son of God for themselves again, and putting Him to an open shame. They are saying that Jesus' once for all blood sacrifice was not good enough to completely purge away sins, so they need Him to do it again for them. So, what it's saying is that this doctrine that you can get saved, then unsaved, then re-saved, then unsaved, then re-saved again is a false doctrine. Once you get saved, you are saved for ever, once and for all, by Jesus' one blood sacrifice for you.


 
Aug 13, 2014
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#19
Dear people,

A while ago I read Hebrews 6:4-6
' 4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.'
Does that mean that a man, first christian, then atheist, then christian again couldn't be bring to repentence again?

Thanks for reading,
Channa
The answer is simple read the verse in context and start with KJV and then all the rest.

Mac.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
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#20
Elin,

WOW. I am impressed. That really doesn’t happen much. A person who thinks things through and who wants to put all of the pieces together so that EVERYTHING fits with EVERYTHING else. PRAISE GOD! Oh, but where to begin? I suppose point by point as you did. I’ll summarize my initial point and leave your reply intact.

  1. THESE PEOPLE ARE FELLOW PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,
But doesn't Jesus also show (Mt 7:21-23) some who say they believe in him and who
partake of the Holy Spirit in gifts of prophesying, driving out demons, and performing miracles,
but who are not saved?

Very good, but the context of Hebrews 6 is not Matthew 7. The context does, indeed seem similar, but you have to give me that the wording is different, and that, at least initially, we should hold to the meaning we can glean from each individual passage, and the context directly surrounding it. For example, using 1 Cor. 13 to interpret Ephesians 5, and forcing the meaning of either to conform to the other completely wipes out many of the points made in each.

Indeed, your point that those in Mat 7, in the example Jesus gives of the “Many” on the broad path to destruction, that are performing great signs, wonders, works of power, casting out demons … indeed were NEVER EVER, KNOWN by Christ at all, and indeed always were lost. Quite correct. Great job putting it together by the way. All of Mat. 7 is about the traits of the religious lost who “Believe” Jesus is their Lord, “believe” they have the Holy Spirit, “believe” that what they are doing is a result of His power … but are habitually responding when someone tosses out pearls or what is holy, like those in Mat. 7:6, which is a commandment to judge given right after a commandment to be aware that others will judge you by the same standard, and a statement that you had best be examining yourself for the same characteristics BEFORE you obey Christ’s command to judge in 7:6.

TO SUMMARIZE: WE AGREE 100%

We also have passages like 1 Cor. 5 where we have a non-repentant man sleeping with his father’s wife in the very presence of the church. This man is being delivered over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his soul might be saved at the coming of Christ Jesus. Sounds a lot like a sin unto death thing to me. Yet, no loss of salvation. Interesting. Let’s jump to another along the same lines:
1Co 11:21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.

(Ok, the situation: Some people showed up early to the Lord’s Supper and ate all the bread and drank all of the, dare I say it … wine, and thus when the rest showed up, some went hungry and others miraculously got drunk on non-alcoholic wine. (The miracles that occurred in the first century just amaze me. Paul continues with his reproof of such behaviors;)


22 … 23-26 … (The Lord’s supper description) 24

(Now the part that pertains to the topic of being saved, and being judged, and possibly not being repentant, and the results:)

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

(Here it comes. Christians who continue in sin, who refuse to judge themselves properly receive judgment from the Lord whether they repent or not.)

30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

(How do we Christians avoid the judgment of God?)

31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
Again, not a loss of salvation due to refusing to repent, but a loss of health, and possibly life as well. Not everyone is renewable to repentance even if they are Christians, although every single true Christian, if they refuse to judge themselves correctly, will see the reproof of God. Hebrews 12:4-13 also confirms what true Christians can expect if they don’t do what is in the previous passage. The point about the part that is lame not being completely put out of joint also applies.

We find the same in Ac 19:13-20.

Again, we agree, non-Christians

Jesus cautions his disciples about rejoicing that the spirits submit to them (Lk 10:20),

because that does not always mean one is born of God and saved.

Again, we agree. Absolutely. Judas was lost and performed every miracle right along with everyone else.

Extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit do not necessarily mean one is saved.

Weee … Again we agree. Praise God … this is fun…

Only fruits of the Spirit show one is saved, as Paul cautions in 1Co 13:2.

Huh? Sorry, lost you on this one. 1 Co. 13 is a continuation of the reproof of those seeking self-glorification by ignoring what they feel is worthless gifts, and acting like they have what they consider to be superior gifts. I think you have the wrong verse reference here. The point is, even if you had the most showy gifts that you desire to the point never before seen on earth, and never even displayed by Christ Himself, it’s worthless because you are handicapping the body of Christ by not using the gifts God did assign you, regardless of how “good” you were at them. Having the Spirit, is, however, a sign that you are a true Christian.

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Possession of the Holy Spirit, as a fact, verses believing that you have Him are two different things. Actually having, actually being a partaker of the Holy Spirit, is the dividing line.

And every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (Mt 7:19).

Again, I agree. True saving faith always results in honestly seeking out the pure milk of the word, crying out for it, seeking to cut it straight, and seeking to arrange every aspect of your life under it, as a habit and way of life. This is the repentance that is described in the scripture that leads to salvation. Again we agree.

The point is that where we start, and what we build on that foundation with, are two different things. We, according to the scriptures I listed earlier, can start out wonderfully, and get derailed. Once you are saved, according to scripture, all you can store up is blessings, everything else, wood, hay, stubble, thorns, thistles … gets burned up … this results in few, or no, rewards. On the other hand the lost, i.e. never saved, regardless of their beliefs and signs … can only store up wrath for themselves in the day of judgment (Romans 2 and the parable about the slave who knew a lot and got a lot of stripes, and the other who knew little and received but a few.)

and are not cursed and headed for hell for their decisions,
they are "CLOSE" to being cursed, but not cursed,

Not yet cursed because they are only considering a return to Judaism,
which would be a rejection of Jesus Christ and his saving sacrifice for sin.

Problem, then, if you are correct, they “repented” by the biblical definition of the word. Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action in scripture. Unfortunately, that contradicts the text. These “Cannot be renewed again to repentance”. again, according to the text. I understand the desire to fit this in with accepted beliefs. And I don't mind altering mine. If you love truth and lose a discussion and have to change a belief, YOU WIN YOU GET THE TRUTH. Problem is, what you are saying and the meaning of the words doesn't jive.

If they make a decision to return to Judaism, they would be cursed, (They did make it, and cannot be renewed again to repentance)

If they were "cursed" and not "close", but not there, that would require the loss of salvation ... if they were truly partakers of the Holy Spirit as the words say.

and would be as the parable of vv. 7-8, land that drinks the rain but produces
worthless thorns and thistles, good only for burning in the fire.
and all of their potential rewards are lost as through fire, even though they themselves are still saved.

That is 1Co 3:13-15 which applies to the saved, but anyone who actually abandons Christ
and his saving sacrifice, as these Hebrews were thinking of doing, is not really saved,

They are fellow partakers of the Holy Spirit. Back to that, sorry. Do a careful search on the words / root words. It doesn’t say, “They believed they were partakers”, or they “wanted to believe they were partakers”, it says “they have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit”. If someone who has been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit can they "give that up", or "lose it", because of their failure to repent, or, in this case, their inability to repent. If so, and you can prove it, then you have a case. If not, the wording, and the meaning, stands.

they are branches who do not remain in the vine, but who wither, and are
thrown into the fire and burned (Jn 15:5-6).

If you believe you are a Christian, fail to judge yourself correctly, and do not see the judgment of God, then, according to the Hebrews passage, contrary to your belief, you are not a child of God, you are a bastard. We seem to agree on that point. Failure to abide in the vine, and not seeing the reproof of God, is proof that you never were a true Christian. Then, if you leave, you went out from us for you never were really of us. If you are a part of the vine, you see the reproof of God, and are ... again ... removed.

Does that make sense to you?

I think we found the issue though. To you, it is impossible that a true Christian can ever turn from Christ, be non-repentant, and still stay a Christian. In the passages before, the non-repent may get sick. They may “sleep” the word for dying in Christ, if they refuse to judge themselves correctly, and God judges them NOW so that they do not have to be judged with the world later. (That Corinthians passage again.) Does that clarify things and fit with everything?

From what I see, you can't get beyond the partakers of the Holy Spirit part. Again, I don't want to "Change" the meaning of the word of God in any way. Just teach what it says and means. If you can show me one person "AFTER Pentecost", who was made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" and is not Christian, I will change my view.
I understand your certainty on this point, and your requirement is a true one.

But would that not be those of Mt 7:21-23?

Sorry, but from Jesus own words, it doesn’t say that Jesus knew them, that they were partakers of the Holy Spirit, and then that they lost the Holy Spirit, and Jesus chose not to know them any longer. These people, even with their signs and wonders, NEVER WERE CHRISTIANS, AND NEVER WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Does this make sense to you? Here's a good passage:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Being made a partaker of the Holy Spirit is proof that you are sealed in Him, and that you will receive the inheritance promised, regardless of what else happens. (If you fail to get what is promised, you keep the “pledge” forever. That’s the biblical definition of a pledge.) Once we are His, we are His. For better or worse, no matter what our response. No batter what bad decisions we make, no matter how we "embarrass" our Father in public(on earth), so to speak. Of course, if we do not judge ourselves, He causes sickness, and if we stiffen our necks at that point, He will take us home.

And I can certainly appreciate your inflexibleness regarding the word of God written.

Thanks, I appreciate yours as well.

One more thing. Those that love their beliefs more than truth, and merely seek out what they need to prove their beliefs true, and what they need to prove all opposing beliefs false, don’t want truth. They have closed their eyes and ears to it. According to scripture, they will have WHATEVER THEY NEED to continue believing that their erroneous beliefs are 100% true. This includes signs, wonders, miracles, apparent casting out of demons … but doesn’t mean that they have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit at all.

The Pharisees disciples did some of the same things, remember. No Holy Spirit involved. Those in Mat. 7, never known by Christ. No Holy Spirit here either. Take a look at, and consider this passage:

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Yes, I understand that the context of the first part of the passage is the end times. Regardless look CAREFULLY at all the details in verses 10-12. Look at who sends the deluding influence. Look at why. Yes, again, this is the end times, but is it just the end times, or is it the same aback then as it is today, as it will be in the future? Look at the first word in verse 13. It is a contrasting word, meaning that whatever comes after the “but” is the opposite of what came before. Paul compared the Christians of his day to those lost people in the end times and said that they passed the exact same test. If we do not receive a love for truth that exceeds our love for our beliefs, if we are unwilling to alter any, or all of our core beliefs to fit the fullness of the truth, with all of it rightly divided, then we will receive a deluding influence FROM GOD, to fully believe a lie with all our heart mind soul and strength. This explains the Pharisees disciples doing signs, wonders, casting out demons, Judas doing the same, those at the end of Matthew …

Does this mean that I put absolutely everything together correctly so that everything fits with everything else? Nope. I might have missed something. I might have put some of this together wrong. Thank God I have people like you who are willing to examine the scriptures diligently daily to see if what I say is so, and correct me WHEN I botch it.
God bless, and thank you.