Elin,
WOW. I am impressed. That really doesn’t happen much. A person who thinks things through and who wants to put all of the pieces together so that EVERYTHING fits with EVERYTHING else. PRAISE GOD! Oh, but where to begin? I suppose point by point as you did. I’ll summarize my initial point and leave your reply intact.
- … THESE PEOPLE ARE FELLOW PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,
But doesn't Jesus also show (
Mt 7:21-23) some who say they
believe in him and who
partake of the Holy Spirit in gifts of prophesying, driving out demons, and performing miracles,
but who are
not saved?
Very good, but the context of Hebrews 6 is not Matthew 7. The context does, indeed seem similar, but you have to give me that the wording is different, and that, at least initially, we should hold to the meaning we can glean from each individual passage, and the context directly surrounding it. For example, using 1 Cor. 13 to interpret Ephesians 5, and forcing the meaning of either to conform to the other completely wipes out many of the points made in each.
Indeed, your point that those in Mat 7, in the example Jesus gives of the “Many” on the broad path to destruction, that are performing great signs, wonders, works of power, casting out demons … indeed were NEVER EVER, KNOWN by Christ at all, and indeed always were lost. Quite correct. Great job putting it together by the way. All of Mat. 7 is about the traits of the religious lost who “Believe” Jesus is their Lord, “believe” they have the Holy Spirit, “believe” that what they are doing is a result of His power … but are habitually responding when someone tosses out pearls or what is holy, like those in Mat. 7:6, which is a commandment to judge given right after a commandment to be aware that others will judge you by the same standard, and a statement that you had best be examining yourself for the same characteristics BEFORE you obey Christ’s command to judge in 7:6.
TO SUMMARIZE: WE AGREE 100%
We also have passages like 1 Cor. 5 where we have a non-repentant man sleeping with his father’s wife in the very presence of the church. This man is being delivered over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his soul might be saved at the coming of Christ Jesus. Sounds a lot like a sin unto death thing to me. Yet, no loss of salvation. Interesting. Let’s jump to another along the same lines:
1Co 11:21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
(Ok, the situation: Some people showed up early to the Lord’s Supper and ate all the bread and drank all of the, dare I say it … wine, and thus when the rest showed up, some went hungry and others miraculously got drunk on non-alcoholic wine. (The miracles that occurred in the first century just amaze me. Paul continues with his reproof of such behaviors
22 … 23-26 … (The Lord’s supper description) 24
(Now the part that pertains to the topic of being saved, and being judged, and possibly not being repentant, and the results
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
(Here it comes. Christians who continue in sin, who refuse to judge themselves properly receive judgment from the Lord whether they repent or not.)
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
(How do we Christians avoid the judgment of God?)
31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
Again, not a loss of salvation due to refusing to repent, but a loss of health, and possibly life as well. Not everyone is renewable to repentance even if they are Christians, although every single true Christian, if they refuse to judge themselves correctly, will see the reproof of God. Hebrews 12:4-13 also confirms what true Christians can expect if they don’t do what is in the previous passage. The point about the part that is lame not being completely put out of joint also applies.
We find the same in
Ac 19:13-20.
Again, we agree, non-Christians
Jesus
cautions his disciples about rejoicing that the spirits submit to them (L
k 10:20),
because that does not
always mean one is born of God and saved.
Again, we agree. Absolutely. Judas was lost and performed every miracle right along with everyone else.
Extraordinary
gifts of the Holy Spirit do not necessarily mean one is saved.
Weee … Again we agree. Praise God … this is fun…
Only
fruits of the Spirit show one is saved, as Paul cautions in
1Co 13:2.
Huh? Sorry, lost you on this one. 1 Co. 13 is a continuation of the reproof of those seeking self-glorification by ignoring what they feel is worthless gifts, and acting like they have what they consider to be superior gifts. I think you have the wrong verse reference here. The point is, even if you had the most showy gifts that you desire to the point never before seen on earth, and never even displayed by Christ Himself, it’s worthless because you are handicapping the body of Christ by not using the gifts God did assign you, regardless of how “good” you were at them. Having the Spirit, is, however, a sign that you are a true Christian.
Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Possession of the Holy Spirit, as a fact, verses believing that you have Him are two different things. Actually having, actually being a partaker of the Holy Spirit, is the dividing line.
And every tree that does not bear good
fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (
Mt 7:19).
Again, I agree. True saving faith always results in honestly seeking out the pure milk of the word, crying out for it, seeking to cut it straight, and seeking to arrange every aspect of your life under it, as a habit and way of life. This is the repentance that is described in the scripture that leads to salvation. Again we agree.
The point is that where we start, and what we build on that foundation with, are two different things. We, according to the scriptures I listed earlier, can start out wonderfully, and get derailed. Once you are saved, according to scripture, all you can store up is blessings, everything else, wood, hay, stubble, thorns, thistles … gets burned up … this results in few, or no, rewards. On the other hand the lost, i.e. never saved, regardless of their beliefs and signs … can only store up wrath for themselves in the day of judgment (Romans 2 and the parable about the slave who knew a lot and got a lot of stripes, and the other who knew little and received but a few.)
and
are not cursed and headed for hell for their decisions,
they are "CLOSE" to being cursed, but not cursed,
Not yet cursed because they are only
considering a return to Judaism,
which would be a rejection of Jesus Christ and his saving sacrifice for sin.
Problem, then, if you are correct, they “repented” by the biblical definition of the word. Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action in scripture. Unfortunately, that contradicts the text. These “Cannot be renewed again to repentance”. again, according to the text. I understand the desire to fit this in with accepted beliefs. And I don't mind altering mine. If you love truth and lose a discussion and have to change a belief, YOU WIN YOU GET THE TRUTH. Problem is, what you are saying and the meaning of the words doesn't jive.
If they make a
decision to return to Judaism, they
would be cursed, (They did make it, and cannot be renewed again to repentance)
If they were "cursed" and not "close", but not there, that would require the loss of salvation ... if they were truly partakers of the Holy Spirit as the words say.
and would be as the parable of vv. 7-8, land that drinks the rain but produces
worthless thorns and thistles, good only for burning in the fire.
and all of
their potential rewards are lost as through fire, even though they themselves are still saved.
That is 1Co 3:13-15 which applies to the
saved, but anyone who actually abandons Christ
and his saving sacrifice, as these Hebrews were thinking of doing, is
not really saved,
They are fellow partakers of the Holy Spirit. Back to that, sorry. Do a careful search on the words / root words. It doesn’t say, “They believed they were partakers”, or they “wanted to believe they were partakers”, it says “they have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit”. If someone who has been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit can they "give that up", or "lose it", because of their failure to repent, or, in this case, their inability to repent. If so, and you can prove it, then you have a case. If not, the wording, and the meaning, stands.
they are branches who do not
remain in the vine, but who wither, and are
thrown into the fire and burned (Jn 15:5-6).
If you believe you are a Christian, fail to judge yourself correctly, and do not see the judgment of God, then, according to the Hebrews passage, contrary to your belief, you are not a child of God, you are a bastard. We seem to agree on that point. Failure to abide in the vine, and not seeing the reproof of God, is proof that you never were a true Christian. Then, if you leave, you went out from us for you never were really of us. If you are a part of the vine, you see the reproof of God, and are ... again ... removed.
Does that make sense to you?
I think we found the issue though. To you, it is impossible that a true Christian can ever turn from Christ, be non-repentant, and still stay a Christian. In the passages before, the non-repent may get sick. They may “sleep” the word for dying in Christ, if they refuse to judge themselves correctly, and God judges them NOW so that they do not have to be judged with the world later. (That Corinthians passage again.) Does that clarify things and fit with everything?
From what I see, you can't get beyond the partakers of the Holy Spirit part. Again, I don't want to "Change" the meaning of the word of God in any way. Just teach what it says and means. If you can
show me one person "AFTER Pentecost", who was made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" and is not Christian, I will change my view.
I understand your certainty on this point, and your requirement is a true one.
But would that not be those of Mt 7:21-23?
Sorry, but from Jesus own words, it doesn’t say that Jesus knew them, that they were partakers of the Holy Spirit, and then that they lost the Holy Spirit, and Jesus chose not to know them any longer. These people, even with their signs and wonders, NEVER WERE CHRISTIANS, AND NEVER WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Does this make sense to you? Here's a good passage:
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of
God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Being made a partaker of the Holy Spirit is proof that you are sealed in Him, and that you will receive the inheritance promised, regardless of what else happens. (If you fail to get what is promised, you keep the “pledge” forever. That’s the biblical definition of a pledge.) Once we are His, we are His. For better or worse, no matter what our response. No batter what bad decisions we make, no matter how we "embarrass" our Father in public(on earth), so to speak. Of course, if we do not judge ourselves, He causes sickness, and if we stiffen our necks at that point, He will take us home.
And I can certainly appreciate your inflexibleness regarding the word of God written.
Thanks, I appreciate yours as well.
One more thing. Those that love their beliefs more than truth, and merely seek out what they need to prove their beliefs true, and what they need to prove all opposing beliefs false, don’t want truth. They have closed their eyes and ears to it. According to scripture, they will have WHATEVER THEY NEED to continue believing that their erroneous beliefs are 100% true. This includes signs, wonders, miracles, apparent casting out of demons … but doesn’t mean that they have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit at all.
The Pharisees disciples did some of the same things, remember. No Holy Spirit involved. Those in Mat. 7, never known by Christ. No Holy Spirit here either. Take a look at, and consider this passage:
2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Yes, I understand that the context of the first part of the passage is the end times. Regardless look CAREFULLY at all the details in verses 10-12. Look at who sends the deluding influence. Look at why. Yes, again, this is the end times, but is it just the end times, or is it the same aback then as it is today, as it will be in the future? Look at the first word in verse 13. It is a contrasting word, meaning that whatever comes after the “but” is the opposite of what came before. Paul compared the Christians of his day to those lost people in the end times and said that they passed the exact same test. If we do not receive a love for truth that exceeds our love for our beliefs, if we are unwilling to alter any, or all of our core beliefs to fit the fullness of the truth, with all of it rightly divided, then we will receive a deluding influence FROM GOD, to fully believe a lie with all our heart mind soul and strength. This explains the Pharisees disciples doing signs, wonders, casting out demons, Judas doing the same, those at the end of Matthew …
Does this mean that I put absolutely everything together correctly so that everything fits with everything else? Nope. I might have missed something. I might have put some of this together wrong. Thank God I have people like you who are willing to examine the scriptures diligently daily to see if what I say is so, and correct me WHEN I botch it.
God bless, and thank you.