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Thereupon,
I have been browsing this site recently an happened upon this thread the day you began it
It was exciting to see a view that agreed with that I held, particularly the theory of the aod had already been set up, and this fueled my decision to definitely sign up and join in on the conversation, although I was content to continue only reading others thoughts. Although I must admit the clincher was a question of women's place of silence in the church that spurred me to speak up, I did want to make sure I expressed my appreciation of your thoughts on this subject.
I have been browsing this site recently an happened upon this thread the day you began it
It was exciting to see a view that agreed with that I held, particularly the theory of the aod had already been set up, and this fueled my decision to definitely sign up and join in on the conversation, although I was content to continue only reading others thoughts. Although I must admit the clincher was a question of women's place of silence in the church that spurred me to speak up, I did want to make sure I expressed my appreciation of your thoughts on this subject.
I am still very curious of the portion in the O.P.(last paragraph) in that the beast would "ascend out of the pit" and how they would be connected to the Beast himself in this analogy. In Rev.17;12 the 10 horns "have/had received no kingdom as yet",,and the (beast) had already been in the earth,was wounded to death and at the time this was written was(existed in the pit),,,,,,so if the caliphates are the "Ten horns" ,,then they cannot also be the Beast,so I'm curious as to how this conclusion came about,,,,,
K
At the moment Isis has no prominent leader. The Antichrist will be a smooth politician and he will be a Jew. Isis is just another rumor of war as Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of war. The Antichrist will operate and move through political means. Just as DCON stated that three will be subdued but not by violence but rather political means. how can that happen? well how did Israel become a nation with out one shot being fired? it was done by the stroke of a pen. Fulfilling the prophecy "shall I make a nation in one day"
Secondly, Islam will not accept the Antichrist at first, why, because he will demand to be worshiped. Muslims are misguided but not stupid, they will not accept him as allah. But, when they realize that his goal is to destroy Israel, then they will join ranks with him. This will not happen until the Antichrist breaks the peace agreement with Israel. In fact Muslims will be angry with him because of the peace agreement.
Thirdly, He must be a Jew or Israel will not allow him to sit in the temple to cause the desolation, nor will they accept him as the Messiah which the bible plainly say's that they will. Why because he brings peace to their war torn, terrorist inflicted state.
Secondly, Islam will not accept the Antichrist at first, why, because he will demand to be worshiped. Muslims are misguided but not stupid, they will not accept him as allah. But, when they realize that his goal is to destroy Israel, then they will join ranks with him. This will not happen until the Antichrist breaks the peace agreement with Israel. In fact Muslims will be angry with him because of the peace agreement.
Thirdly, He must be a Jew or Israel will not allow him to sit in the temple to cause the desolation, nor will they accept him as the Messiah which the bible plainly say's that they will. Why because he brings peace to their war torn, terrorist inflicted state.
The Leader of ISIS is not and will not become the "AntiChrist." The Beast of the Sea is ISLAM. The location given in Rev 13 proves it as Therapon has shown. The word, "BEAST" is most often a Biblical symbol for a nation, power or political system. It is not typically a singular person.
Rev 13 discusses two BEASTS. THE BEAST of the SEA (ISLAM) will have a prominent voice and will speak blasphemous things and continue for 42 months.
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
ISIS has a leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. He is not a household name yet, and he may not be the leader or voice mentioned above. ISIS may not even be the Beast from the Sea. We will have to wait and see. al-Baghdadi is acting like he wants to become the leader of the Muslim world as we see below.
On 5 July 2014, a video was released apparently showing al-Baghdadi making a speech at the Great Mosque of al-Nuri in Mosul, northern Iraq. A representative of the Iraqi government denied that the video was of al-Baghdadi, calling it a "farce".[SUP][39][/SUP] However, both the BBC[SUP][43][/SUP] and the Associated Press[SUP][44][/SUP] quoted unnamed Iraqi officials as saying that the man in the video was believed to be al-Baghdadi. In the video, al-Baghdadi declared himself the world leader of Muslims and called on Muslims everywhere to support him.[SUP][45][/SUP]
On 8 July 2014, ISIS launched its magazine Dabiq. Its title appears to have been selected for its eschatological connections with the Islamic version of the End times or Malahim.
Regardless, ISLAM is the BEAST of the SEA.
Rev 13 discusses two BEASTS. THE BEAST of the SEA (ISLAM) will have a prominent voice and will speak blasphemous things and continue for 42 months.
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
ISIS has a leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. He is not a household name yet, and he may not be the leader or voice mentioned above. ISIS may not even be the Beast from the Sea. We will have to wait and see. al-Baghdadi is acting like he wants to become the leader of the Muslim world as we see below.
On 5 July 2014, a video was released apparently showing al-Baghdadi making a speech at the Great Mosque of al-Nuri in Mosul, northern Iraq. A representative of the Iraqi government denied that the video was of al-Baghdadi, calling it a "farce".[SUP][39][/SUP] However, both the BBC[SUP][43][/SUP] and the Associated Press[SUP][44][/SUP] quoted unnamed Iraqi officials as saying that the man in the video was believed to be al-Baghdadi. In the video, al-Baghdadi declared himself the world leader of Muslims and called on Muslims everywhere to support him.[SUP][45][/SUP]
On 8 July 2014, ISIS launched its magazine Dabiq. Its title appears to have been selected for its eschatological connections with the Islamic version of the End times or Malahim.
Regardless, ISLAM is the BEAST of the SEA.
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Bookends,
Therapon is right about the two witnesses being Israel and the Church. Don't look at the current spiritual state of Israel and disqualify her. We know that 1/3 of Israel will return God in the latter days (Zech 13:9).
Rev 11:4:
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
We don't have to guess what the "olive trees" and "lambstands" represent. We are told.
Rev 1:20:
...and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17:
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree...
There are two olive trees, the wild one (Gentile) and the natural one (Israel). Just look at this symbol with the two olive branches surrounding the Menorah.
Rev 11:5:
And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
Is there any doubt that if anyone messes with Israel they will be killed? Until recently, the same could be said of the USA (the #1 Christian nation in the world).
Therapon is right about the two witnesses being Israel and the Church. Don't look at the current spiritual state of Israel and disqualify her. We know that 1/3 of Israel will return God in the latter days (Zech 13:9).
Rev 11:4:
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
We don't have to guess what the "olive trees" and "lambstands" represent. We are told.
Rev 1:20:
...and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17:
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree...
There are two olive trees, the wild one (Gentile) and the natural one (Israel). Just look at this symbol with the two olive branches surrounding the Menorah.
Rev 11:5:
And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
Is there any doubt that if anyone messes with Israel they will be killed? Until recently, the same could be said of the USA (the #1 Christian nation in the world).
EXPLAIN please......
T
I have explained this in detail on CC many times. Just go to www.ellisskolfield.com and read my book. <smile>
2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
This is Islam, present favorite is ISIS.
abraham (father of all) connects islam,jews, gentiles. etc to a god.
what did money give, humans on this planet.
would none christain jews, be anti christ as well . would athests be classed as anti god, or anti christ.
who, pays for any country to go to war. ie for weapons ,armys pay etc
food for thought
HAHH well no offence, but a 1000 books written will not be able to explain away the WORDS used under inspiration which do not bear up and or equate to the church and or Israel as the two witnesses....as neither DIE and then GET RESURRECTED in view of ALL HUMANITY after laying dead in the STREET for 3.5 days after being KILLED by the BEAST that ASCENDS out of the PIT......so...this is a discussion site and I have not read what YOU HAVE written bro....so...is it to hard for a concise answer as to why you would spiritualize away what has been written in plain verbage? Not to mention the 3.5 year WITNESS that these TWO MEN will be testifying of during the DAYS OF THEIR TESTIMONY!
J
Allegorizing turns the Bible into Nostradamus, whatever meaning one wishes to assign. One could actually make up fables all day, when you start discounting the plethora of literal meanings. Jesus Christ came, literally, as prophesied in the Old Testament, in many literal events. Israel is, literally, a nation again, the dry bones coming to life, etc. Jesus Christ's second coming will also be literal, as well as the apocalypse frighteningly as described. Revelation will one day more understood as a newspaper.
P
Wouldn't considering Muhammad's one-eyed end-time boogieman, to have anything to do with the end-times, be crediting Muhammad with true prophecy and thus divinely inspired?
Not that it's unusual, but aren't you throwing together a lot of separate terms, as if they are the same? Didn't Daniel define the term "beast" as a kingdom when used in the context of the figurative language of of his prophetic dream?
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
DANIEL'S FOUR BEASTS
And didn't Daniel define the term in the context of using three of the very same figures of lion, bear and leopard that John did, and John also in the context of a prophetic vision?
THE BEAST
Not that it's unusual, but aren't you throwing together a lot of separate terms, as if they are the same? Didn't Daniel define the term "beast" as a kingdom when used in the context of the figurative language of of his prophetic dream?
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
DANIEL'S FOUR BEASTS
And didn't Daniel define the term in the context of using three of the very same figures of lion, bear and leopard that John did, and John also in the context of a prophetic vision?
THE BEAST
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P
Whoops, please excuse the lapse there. I read 12th Imam but imputed the Dajjal, or the one-eyed end-time boogieman, of Muhammad's overactive imagination. However the argument is the same. By believing the 12th Imam has something to do with end-times wouldn't you be crediting Islam with true prophecy?
Just finished reading your book. It was an excellent read. I encourage anyone interested in Bible prophesy to read it. It takes 4-6 hours.
www.ellisskolfield.com
I think you have nailed all the historical stuff. I was very impressed and compelled by the times, the day = year related to the 1,260 days, 1,290 days, 1,335 days, the 42 months, the time, times and half a time, etc. One cannot argue with this once they see it laid out the way you presented it.
However, I do have some different views on some of your future interpretations. We agree on the 2 witnesses being Israel and the Church. There is absolutely no doubt about their identity. We agree that the CHURCH as a whole is falling away rapidly, just as Paul teaches it will. We agree the Beast is Islam and the False Prophet is Muhammad, etc.
You don't see a future AntiChrist or a Third Temple. I'm not sure about the Third Temple either and I don't like the term, "AntiChrist" as Paul calls him, "The Man of Sin." This figure is yet future and real in my opinion. I do believe there will be a massive temptation soon to come where the world is misled by the Man of Sin that he is Christ or God. By this point, I think the church will be "dead."
Good stuff and thank you for the excellent read!!!
www.ellisskolfield.com
I think you have nailed all the historical stuff. I was very impressed and compelled by the times, the day = year related to the 1,260 days, 1,290 days, 1,335 days, the 42 months, the time, times and half a time, etc. One cannot argue with this once they see it laid out the way you presented it.
However, I do have some different views on some of your future interpretations. We agree on the 2 witnesses being Israel and the Church. There is absolutely no doubt about their identity. We agree that the CHURCH as a whole is falling away rapidly, just as Paul teaches it will. We agree the Beast is Islam and the False Prophet is Muhammad, etc.
You don't see a future AntiChrist or a Third Temple. I'm not sure about the Third Temple either and I don't like the term, "AntiChrist" as Paul calls him, "The Man of Sin." This figure is yet future and real in my opinion. I do believe there will be a massive temptation soon to come where the world is misled by the Man of Sin that he is Christ or God. By this point, I think the church will be "dead."
Good stuff and thank you for the excellent read!!!
You need to get out of the physical, literal interpretation and into the spiritual realm my friend. Revelation is mostly a spiritual book. What does Paul say in Eph 6?
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
It is all about the spiritual.
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
It is all about the spiritual.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
1 prophetic day = 1 year (solar year for NT prophesies, Jewish year for OT prophesies)
42 months (365.24/12 = 30.436) * 42 = 1278.34 years.
The Holy City, Jerusalem, was taken by Israel during the 6 Day War of 1967.
1967 - 1278 = 688 AD, the year construction of the Dome of the Rock (The Abomination of Desolation) began. Thus Jerusalem was tread under foot by Gentiles for 42 prophetic months.
Let's look at the two witnesses, the Church and Israel, first the timing:
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
The Church and Israel will witness to the world for 1,260 years. Then they are killed and/or silenced for 3.5 years. They are no longer witnessing nor are they preventing Satan. After which they join Jesus in the "Clouds of Heaven" upon the return of the Lord. Remember Rev 1?
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
So, the saved of the Church and of Israel, the 2 witnesses resurrection will be witnessed by all and it happens upon the return of the Lord.
Now, I may get some disagreement from lots of people on this and I also once held the same view as most...
8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Most believe this is Jerusalem because that's where Christ was killed. If it is Jerusalem, why not just say it is Jerusalem or the Holy City, etc? Why use the phrase, "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt?" By spiritualizing, this passage we should not be taking this as literal Jerusalem. Instead we should consider what Sodom and Egypt represent spiritually. Sodom is an easy one. There should be little doubt that the Church is under tremendous assault for objecting to/preaching against homosexuality. One day, the churches will be forced into silence on this issue. As for Egypt, many spiritual things could be at play, idolatry quickly comes to mind, as does abortion/killing of babies, captivity - spiritual bondage, etc.
Let's look further at the 2 witnesses:
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
We were already told back in Rev 1 what the candle stands represented. Paul teaches in Romans 11 what the Olive Trees represent. Now, does anyone think that literal fire will spew out of two people's mouths and devour their enemies? If you think that then surely you believe a literal sword will come out of Christ's mouth and do the same from Rev 19:
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations...
Who thinks this is a literal sword and who thinks this is the power of the truth to convict and convince the wicked of who the Savior is?
Oops. I'm gonna be late for church.... More later.
1 prophetic day = 1 year (solar year for NT prophesies, Jewish year for OT prophesies)
42 months (365.24/12 = 30.436) * 42 = 1278.34 years.
The Holy City, Jerusalem, was taken by Israel during the 6 Day War of 1967.
1967 - 1278 = 688 AD, the year construction of the Dome of the Rock (The Abomination of Desolation) began. Thus Jerusalem was tread under foot by Gentiles for 42 prophetic months.
Let's look at the two witnesses, the Church and Israel, first the timing:
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
The Church and Israel will witness to the world for 1,260 years. Then they are killed and/or silenced for 3.5 years. They are no longer witnessing nor are they preventing Satan. After which they join Jesus in the "Clouds of Heaven" upon the return of the Lord. Remember Rev 1?
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
So, the saved of the Church and of Israel, the 2 witnesses resurrection will be witnessed by all and it happens upon the return of the Lord.
Now, I may get some disagreement from lots of people on this and I also once held the same view as most...
8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Most believe this is Jerusalem because that's where Christ was killed. If it is Jerusalem, why not just say it is Jerusalem or the Holy City, etc? Why use the phrase, "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt?" By spiritualizing, this passage we should not be taking this as literal Jerusalem. Instead we should consider what Sodom and Egypt represent spiritually. Sodom is an easy one. There should be little doubt that the Church is under tremendous assault for objecting to/preaching against homosexuality. One day, the churches will be forced into silence on this issue. As for Egypt, many spiritual things could be at play, idolatry quickly comes to mind, as does abortion/killing of babies, captivity - spiritual bondage, etc.
Let's look further at the 2 witnesses:
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
We were already told back in Rev 1 what the candle stands represented. Paul teaches in Romans 11 what the Olive Trees represent. Now, does anyone think that literal fire will spew out of two people's mouths and devour their enemies? If you think that then surely you believe a literal sword will come out of Christ's mouth and do the same from Rev 19:
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations...
Who thinks this is a literal sword and who thinks this is the power of the truth to convict and convince the wicked of who the Savior is?
Oops. I'm gonna be late for church.... More later.
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