knocking at the door

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
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#1
Revelation 3:20

This verse really commonly gets used for referring to receiving eternal life. But what is it really about?

-The Campus Crusade for Christ Four Spiritual Laws booklet uses it to talk about salvation... many many preachers refer to it when talking about salvation.. but consider this:

1) This verse is addressed to the church at Loadicea- a church contains already saved, baptised believers-- is Jesus going to be knocking on door of these people's hearts for eternal salvation? Already saved believers?

-logical problem there

2) Context of the chapter isn't about receiving eternal life but a church getting out of a 'luke warm state' in particular-- the Loadicean church.

So contextually not about receiving eternal life

Yes, there are individuals who will be affected by a church being lukewarm.. but that doesn't mean each individual is seperate from the church context in this passage.

There is a difference between a church family being addressed and particular individuals being addressed. The Holy Spirit has two different works- with a local church family as a whole and the individuals.

The Holy Spirit can be dwelling 'in the midst' of a church family.. and also 'indwelling' individuals. The 'in the midst dwelling'- can be taken away. The individual indwelling- won't be.

Yes.. Loadicean church is also representative of a church age... lukewarm churches. Most people believe this is about nowadays churches being lukewarm.

Altho Jesus DOES knock on the door of someone's heart to convict for salvation-- (Romans 10... John 3:16)..

Revelation 3:20 is a about a church overcoming to be strong for God rather than lukewarm.. not a verse about receiving eternal life.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
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#2
I was with ya until the last sentence,

"Revelation 3:20 is a about a church overcoming to be strong for God rather than lukewarm.. not a verse about receiving eternal life."

In history that church died off.
 
May 14, 2014
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#3
Originally posted by wattie,
Revelation 3:20 is a about a church overcoming to be strong for God rather than lukewarm.. not a verse about receiving eternal life.
Jesus' words in Rev.2-3 are about reward for overcoming obstacles. It concerns every individual, but not everyone will receive these rewards.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#4
If you would focus and pray, you would see that it is all about the cross and faith in it. Not in a church, in Fact in Revelation you will find that Jesus is on the outside knocking and appealing to the individual meaning that the church has rejected the cross and the the work thereof and relying own their own works.
 
May 14, 2014
611
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#5
Actually, Jesus isn't on the outside but walks in the midst of the lamp stands which are the churches....which He indicates contains both faithful and unfaithful people. Jesus is only on the outside of the unfaithful.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#6
I was with ya until the last sentence,

"Revelation 3:20 is a about a church overcoming to be strong for God rather than lukewarm.. not a verse about receiving eternal life."

In history that church died off.
oic what you are saying, ...it is an encouragement to all the Churches to be faithful and commune with Jesus.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,171
113
#7
I think I kind of get what your saying as I was a luke warm Christian and have been awakened in the last 4 years to a much closer walk with Jesus.

God has been working with me in overcoming some of the sins that were my (pet) sins and I love the fact that He is with me all the way in working out things that I had let get out of hand... We are working on my sin of gluttony right now and God is really helping me with this and I am seeing progress and success and feeling much better about my body being God's temple.

I still have a long way to go, but I appreciate the fact that my Heavenly Father is with me each step of the way and I am so glad when He knocked on my hearts door 4 years ago that I opened it and let Him come in.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#8
Yeah, He is knocking on the door of the church but they are too busy playing church to notice.

This verse also reminds me of Song of Solomon. He knocks at her door, by the time she finally opens He has already gone..
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
1,014
113
New Zealand
#9
oic what you are saying, ...it is an encouragement to all the Churches to be faithful and commune with Jesus.
Yeah that is it. Look at the preceding and verses after Rev 3:20- all about a church overcoming 'luke-warm ness'
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#10
Revelation 3:20

This verse really commonly gets used for referring to receiving eternal life. But what is it really about?

-The Campus Crusade for Christ Four Spiritual Laws booklet uses it to talk about salvation... many many preachers refer to it when talking about salvation.. but consider this:

1) This verse is addressed to the church at Loadicea- a church contains already saved, baptised believers-- is Jesus going to be knocking on door of these people's hearts for eternal salvation? Already saved believers?

-logical problem there

2) Context of the chapter isn't about receiving eternal life but a church getting out of a 'luke warm state' in particular-- the Loadicean church.

So contextually not about receiving eternal life

Yes, there are individuals who will be affected by a church being lukewarm.. but that doesn't mean each individual is seperate from the church context in this passage.

There is a difference between a church family being addressed and particular individuals being addressed. The Holy Spirit has two different works- with a local church family as a whole and the individuals.

The Holy Spirit can be dwelling 'in the midst' of a church family.. and also 'indwelling' individuals. The 'in the midst dwelling'- can be taken away. The individual indwelling- won't be.

Yes.. Loadicean church is also representative of a church age... lukewarm churches. Most people believe this is about nowadays churches being lukewarm.

Altho Jesus DOES knock on the door of someone's heart to convict for salvation-- (Romans 10... John 3:16)..

Revelation 3:20 is a about a church overcoming to be strong for God rather than lukewarm.. not a verse about receiving eternal life.
I was with yah until you said the Loadicean church represents a church age, no where in the bible does it say this. There has been lukewarm churches through-out all the church age. These seven churches existed back when idol and emperor worship was forced or strongly encouraged, thus Jesus warns them about succumbing to the temptation even if it meant death, that's what an overcomer is.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
586
113
#11
I was with yah until you said the Loadicean church represents a church age, no where in the bible does it say this...
Ditto...

The letters to the seven churches are not prophecies of different periods of Church history, they are messages to each named individual church. However, each letter to the churches has lessons for all of Christ's Church in all ages. We need to take note of the warnings, and rejoice in the promises, that Jesus gives to these churches. There have been many different kinds of churches in every period of Church history. The word of God is the eternal voice of God to His people. The Holy Spirit meets the particular and local needs of each church through His gifts.

Yahweh Shalom
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
0
#12
I believe it's the local body that has missed the NT paradigm for Christ's body, not discerning that body that the Father has prepared for Christ. He wants to be Head over and in the midst of His body, with every member functioning by the Holy Spirit. We have that picture described in 1Cor. 12 and 14 and in Romans 12 and Ephecians 4. We study it, we have seminars dealing with it, teachers teach it, but we don't do it. Because we r not allowed to develop it and walk in it. The reason? This would put the unscriptural single paid career 'pastor' out of a job. Therefore....not gonna happen. The body will remain impotent.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#13
Ditto...

The letters to the seven churches are not prophecies of different periods of Church history, they are messages to each named individual church. However, each letter to the churches has lessons for all of Christ's Church in all ages. We need to take note of the warnings, and rejoice in the promises, that Jesus gives to these churches. There have been many different kinds of churches in every period of Church history. The word of God is the eternal voice of God to His people. The Holy Spirit meets the particular and local needs of each church through His gifts.

Yahweh Shalom
Amen I agree we make an application and gleam spiritual truth from all of Scripture.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#14
I believe it's the local body that has missed the NT paradigm for Christ's body, not discerning that body that the Father has prepared for Christ. He wants to be Head over and in the midst of His body, with every member functioning by the Holy Spirit. We have that picture described in 1Cor. 12 and 14 and in Romans 12 and Ephecians 4. We study it, we have seminars dealing with it, teachers teach it, but we don't do it. Because we r not allowed to develop it and walk in it. The reason? This would put the unscriptural single paid career 'pastor' out of a job. Therefore....not gonna happen. The body will remain impotent.
I believe that if a single pastor or group of elders, lead a church with an attitude of servanthood, like Christ, there is no problem with it...For Jesus did tell Peter to take care of His sheep! John 21:16
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#15
The church at Laodicea had become spiritually lost, Christ had spued (aorist-past tense) them out of His mouth. They had essentially put Christ out of His church separating themselves from Christ and now Christ stands at the door asking to be let back in. So Christ would be knocking at the door of them that had lost the promise of eternal salvation.
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
0
#16
Feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre. A plurality of shepherd elders.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
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#18
The church at Laodicea had become spiritually lost, Christ had spued (aorist-past tense) them out of His mouth. They had essentially put Christ out of His church separating themselves from Christ and now Christ stands at the door asking to be let back in. So Christ would be knocking at the door of them that had lost the promise of eternal salvation.
The scripture says the Laodicean church:

(Rev 3:15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.


(Rev 3:16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


(Rev 3:17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


(Rev 3:18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Points-

1) To be considered one of Jesus' churches to begin with- they would be saved, baptised christians. Anyone in there who isn't saved and baptised wouldn't be a member of that church.

2) The context of this passage is about overcoming the luke warmness. The 'spueing out of the mouth' is.. the church losing the presence of the Holy Spirit 'in their midst' .. not every individual in that church losing eternal life!

Plus, if eternal life is a promise-- as you say.. it isn't going to be taken away. A promise from Jesus is pretty set.

3) There are two different works of the Holy Spirit- in an individual.. and with a local church family. This passage is about the later.

Consider the logic of saying that an already saved, baptised assembly of believers need to have Jesus knocking on the door of their heart to receive eternal life. Makes no sense.

Revelation 3:18 is the main point to the Loadicean church:

(Rev 3:18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
1,014
113
New Zealand
#19
I was with yah until you said the Loadicean church represents a church age, no where in the bible does it say this. There has been lukewarm churches through-out all the church age. These seven churches existed back when idol and emperor worship was forced or strongly encouraged, thus Jesus warns them about succumbing to the temptation even if it meant death, that's what an overcomer is.
In regards to the church ages.. you can look at each of the seven churches represented and then look at churches history and see where they fit. There are general characteristics that do fit. The Loadicean church age would fit today's churches because they tend not to be biblically based.. and consider themselves having monetary or possession wealth.. yet because of these two things would qualify as being 'wretched, poor, naked'. Not completely cold... because they do try and worship Jesus.. but not hot either because they compromise to allow for worldy possessions and wealth.

Of course there will be churches that are hot- faithful and biblically based.. but they wouldn't be representative of the general trend.

That is how at least the Loadicean church age would apply. My pastor says, when he goes back home to look at the churches there.. you get an area with the same type of churches every couple of miles..heaps of them. So people don't stick with a church.. if a church doesn't have the nice building and flash band.. they go and look for another. That's shallowness-- lukewarmness.. with an emphasis on materialism.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#20
The scripture says the Laodicean church:

(Rev 3:15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.


(Rev 3:16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


(Rev 3:17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


(Rev 3:18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Points-

1) To be considered one of Jesus' churches to begin with- they would be saved, baptised christians. Anyone in there who isn't saved and baptised wouldn't be a member of that church.

2) The context of this passage is about overcoming the luke warmness. The 'spueing out of the mouth' is.. the church losing the presence of the Holy Spirit 'in their midst' .. not every individual in that church losing eternal life!

Plus, if eternal life is a promise-- as you say.. it isn't going to be taken away. A promise from Jesus is pretty set.

3) There are two different works of the Holy Spirit- in an individual.. and with a local church family. This passage is about the later.

Consider the logic of saying that an already saved, baptised assembly of believers need to have Jesus knocking on the door of their heart to receive eternal life. Makes no sense.

Revelation 3:18 is the main point to the Loadicean church:

(Rev 3:18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
An individual or entire congregation can fall away becoming lost as in Rev 2:1-7 if the church at Ephesus did not repent, their candlestick (church) would be removed, no longer recognize by God. This was true of the Laodiceans so Christ was outside asking to be let back in. If salvation were impossible to be lost then what is said to the Laodiceans makes no sense.

The congregation at Laodicia was also given the same command to repent. If they fail to obey this imperative then they will for certain perish, Lk 13;3,5. Being spued out of Christ's mouth is figurative for that congregation being rejected, cast aside by Christ, as Christ said those that abide not in Me are cast aside as branches and burned, Jn 15:6. The Laodiceans had become spiritually blind to their lost state needing eyesalve so they may see. Jesus said to them " if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." The idea presented here is they were no longer listening to the voice of Christ and had fallen out of fellowship, no communion with Christ, a lost state. The Laodiceans had quit eating from the bread of life thinking they were self-sufficient in need of nothing.
 
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