They say God doesn't infringe on the free will of man...

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Revelator7

Guest
#1
What about Pharoah? God deliberately hardened his heart to display his power through him! God usurped Pharaoh's "free will".
What about the man borned blind? The disciples asked Jesus what sin caused him to suffer blindness since birth. But Jesus said he was born blind so that the glory of God would be revealed in and through him. God purposely made that man blind. That's controlling someone's life.
What about Job? Think about the family he had that God allowed the devil to kill. They had no choice, they died. Their "free will" to live was infringed on. Then there's Job who suffered all that loss and sickness. When God allows the devil to afflict, like sending Paul a demon to torment him, we lose part of our will if not all of it. Think about Nebbachadnezer, he was subject to being an animal for 7 years crawling around on all fours. God made him that way. Or the two people in Acts who lose their lives for lying about finances to the Holy Spirit... The list goes on. I'm not saying I'm objecting to God or his decisions. If anything I welcome his ways, even if they cause me to be controlled. I'm just talking about how preachers always say "God doesn't infringe on the free will of man". Where in the Bible does it say that? From what I've read, it doesn't say that. What do you think?
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#2
I'm just talking about how preachers always say "God doesn't infringe on the free will of man". Where in the Bible does it say that? From what I've read, it doesn't say that. What do you think?
Usually, theological free will is referenced in terms of man's right to choose or reject God's calling, which is true: Christianity is not a belief of compulsion. Free will is an inherent fact of our lives. God, of course, can exert His will when He chooses, but it does seem all of us would be hard pressed to, for instance, claim the Lord is dealing with us as He did Pharaoh. And what did Job's sufferings have to do with his will? Does anybody have free will to remain alive, when death comes calling? Is it a violation of your free will, if you don't get the Mercedes convertible you want, or you're not being born with movie star looks? Can a blind man, nonetheless, choose or reject that which is right? Are you saying having free will is linked to having all your own wishes? What does any of that have to do with free will? It seems you are presenting some straw man for consideration. Does the Lord force you to have Cheerios or corn flakes, or neither? You also live with the laws of gravity, but this isn't a violation of your free will.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#3
Well let's think about this for a moment. Did God make Pharaoh do something Pharaoh did not want to do? God does know the end from the beginning so God knew what Pharaoh would do anyhow. Pharaoh saw himself as god. God used what Pharaoh was going to do for Gods glory.

God has concluded all in unbelief that God might have mercy upon all.

Here is the condemnation that Light is come into the world but men loved darkness rather than the Light neither would they come to the Light because their deeds were evil. Light makes manifest the deeds of evil men.

It is Gods will that all would be saved but not all will come to God on Gods terms and there is no other way to eternal life. Many of these are very religious but they will not receive Gods gift of salvation because they desire to earn it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#4
Well...God being the lofty one who inhabits eternity and not bound by time can collectively see the timeline of all humanity on a grand scale and therefore has the ability to inspire the things that were written about all men....Just like Judas....God knew what Judas would do before he came forth...hence the ability to call Judas a SON of Perdition and predict or prophesy about what Judas would do in scripture beforehand!
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#5
First, freewill does not mean man can choose to do as he pleases. Freewill will not allow a man to jump off a building's roof and float in the air, his freewill is bound by the law of gravity/physics. We live in a free country but that does not allow man to choose as he pleases he must live within the law or be punished....rob a bank, go to jail. So man's freewill must reside within the laws of God or God Who is Just will punish him. So as men are put in jail against their will, God can punish man against man's will for God has that right over His creation.

Secondly, God does not violate man's free will in the sense of God causing men to do wrong against man's will just so God can punish man. That's a false notion of Calvinism. God does not predetermine/force men to do wrong but men of their own free will chose to do wrong and God punishes. In the case of Nebuchadnezzar for example, God was to teach him the lesson that God rules in the kingdom of men. How Nebuchadnezzar learned that lesson was up to his own free will, he could learn it the easy way by taking Daniels' advice in Dan 4:27 but Nebuchadnezzar chose of his own freewill to learn it the hard way, Dan 4:30 and was punished by God Dan 4:31-33. Nebuchadnezzar becoming as an animal was a result of his own free will choice in not taking Daniel's advice and learning the easy way God rules in the kingdom of men. Again, God did not predetermine/force Nebuchadnezzar to make the choice he did in Dan 4:30, that was his own freewill choice.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#6
2nd Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he MOVED DAVID AGAINST THEM to say, go, number Israel and Judah.
vs. 10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I HAVE SINNED GREATLY in that I HAVE DONE: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the INIQUITY of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
vs. 11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the Lord came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,
vs. 12 GO and say unto David, Thus saith the Lord, I offer the three things; choose the one of them, that I may do it unto THEE.

Do you study? You are a King Jimmer right....well the above verses tell me that GOD moved David to number the people that he may judge David and the people....so.......not real sure about your bolded below?

First, freewill does not mean man can choose to do as he pleases. Freewill will not allow a man to jump off a building's roof and float in the air, his freewill is bound by the law of gravity/physics. We live in a free country but that does not allow man to choose as he pleases he must live within the law or be punished....rob a bank, go to jail. So man's freewill must reside within the laws of God or God Who is Just will punish him. So as men are put in jail against their will, God can punish man against man's will for God has that right over His creation.

Secondly, God does not violate man's free will in the sense of God causing men to do wrong against man's will just so God can punish man. That's a false notion of Calvinism. God does not predetermine/force men to do wrong but men of their own free will chose to do wrong and God punishes. In the case of Nebuchadnezzar for example, God was to teach him the lesson that God rules in the kingdom of men. How Nebuchadnezzar learned that lesson was up to his own free will, he could learn it the easy way by taking Daniels' advice in Dan 4:27 but Nebuchadnezzar chose of his own freewill to learn it the hard way, Dan 4:30 and was punished by God Dan 4:31-33. Nebuchadnezzar becoming as an animal was a result of his own free will choice in not taking Daniel's advice and learning the easy way God rules in the kingdom of men. Again, God did not predetermine/force Nebuchadnezzar to make the choice he did in Dan 4:30, that was his own freewill choice.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#7
What about Pharoah? God deliberately hardened his heart to display his power through him! God usurped Pharaoh's "free will".
What about the man borned blind? The disciples asked Jesus what sin caused him to suffer blindness since birth. But Jesus said he was born blind so that the glory of God would be revealed in and through him. God purposely made that man blind. That's controlling someone's life.
What about Job? Think about the family he had that God allowed the devil to kill. They had no choice, they died. Their "free will" to live was infringed on. Then there's Job who suffered all that loss and sickness. When God allows the devil to afflict, like sending Paul a demon to torment him, we lose part of our will if not all of it. Think about Nebbachadnezer, he was subject to being an animal for 7 years crawling around on all fours. God made him that way. Or the two people in Acts who lose their lives for lying about finances to the Holy Spirit... The list goes on. I'm not saying I'm objecting to God or his decisions. If anything I welcome his ways, even if they cause me to be controlled. I'm just talking about how preachers always say "God doesn't infringe on the free will of man". Where in the Bible does it say that? From what I've read, it doesn't say that. What do you think?
personally, i reject the idea of open theism.
God is indeed sovereign.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#8
2nd Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he MOVED DAVID AGAINST THEM to say, go, number Israel and Judah.
vs. 10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I HAVE SINNED GREATLY in that I HAVE DONE: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the INIQUITY of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
vs. 11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the Lord came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,
vs. 12 GO and say unto David, Thus saith the Lord, I offer the three things; choose the one of them, that I may do it unto THEE.

Do you study? You are a King Jimmer right....well the above verses tell me that GOD moved David to number the people that he may judge David and the people....so.......not real sure about your bolded below?
1 Chron 21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel ."

Satan is the one that provoked David and God allowed it. It's a Hebrew idiom that God is said to cause some thing to happen when it is simply His permissive will.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#9
1 Chron 21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel ."

Satan is the one that provoked David and God allowed it. It's a Hebrew idiom that God is said to cause some thing to happen when it is simply His permissive will.
WELL all of chapter 24 tells me that God had a hand in it and no surprise here that you would reject obvious truth in favor of your flawed theology...so did God inspire chapter 24 or was Samuel full of crap and not inspired when he penned it? And wasn't 2nd Samuel written BEFORE CHRONICLES and COPIED by SCRIBES?
 
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Mar 12, 2014
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#10
WELL all of chapter 24 tells me that God had a hand in it and no surprise here that you would reject obvious truth in favor of your flawed theology...so did God inspire chapter 24 or was Samuel full of crap and not inspired when he penned it? And wasn't 2nd Samuel written BEFORE CHRONICLES and COPIED by SCRIBES?
All scripture is inspired so the two verses do not contradict but uses a Hebrew idiom where Satan caused it, God allowed it.

Another example of this same idiom:

In the book of Job, God ALLOWED Satan to inflict suffering upon Job "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD." Job 1:12 "

So it was Satan's hand that was the direct cause of Job losing his children and material wealth, God ALLOWED it. After Satan inflicts this suffering upon Job, Satan returns and presents himself before the Lord and the following is what is said between the Lord and Satan:

Job 2:3-6 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life
."


God said to Satan "thou movest Me against him" even though God knew it was Satan's hand that was the direct cause of Job's suffering. God simply allowed what He is said to have done/moved.
 
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May 14, 2014
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#11
What about Pharoah? God deliberately hardened his heart to display his power through him! God usurped Pharaoh's "free will."
If you were a king and a nobody came to you with a demand, what would your response be?
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#12
If you were a king and a nobody came to you with a demand, what would your response be?
God sent Moses to Pharaoh with the demand to "let my people go". So God created the circumstance that put Pharaoh in a position to freely choose to let them go or not. Since God created the circumstance then it is in that sense God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart. Just as God created the circumstance for Satan to move his hand against Job, God created the circumstance for Pharaoh to freely choose to disobey. But since God created both these circumstances God is said to cause them.
 
May 14, 2014
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#13
God sent Moses to Pharaoh with the demand to "let my people go". So God created the circumstance that put Pharaoh in a position to freely choose to let them go or not. Since God created the circumstance then it is in that sense God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart. Just as God created the circumstance for Satan to move his hand against Job, God created the circumstance for Pharaoh to freely choose to disobey. But since God created both these circumstances God is said to cause them.
You're a scholar SeaBass!
 
K

Kaycie

Guest
#14
We have freewill- God does not lie. I look at it this way... Let's say God has a box of checkers and says to them, "You can choose to be black or red." So each checker chooses it's color. Then God proceeds to play the game against satan. God foreknew who would choose Him and who would not, and purposely put certain people in certain positions to make His Will come about.
 
Feb 7, 2013
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#15
What about Pharoah? God deliberately hardened his heart to display his power through him! God usurped Pharaoh's "free will".
What about the man borned blind? The disciples asked Jesus what sin caused him to suffer blindness since birth. But Jesus said he was born blind so that the glory of God would be revealed in and through him. God purposely made that man blind. That's controlling someone's life.
What about Job? Think about the family he had that God allowed the devil to kill. They had no choice, they died. Their "free will" to live was infringed on. Then there's Job who suffered all that loss and sickness. When God allows the devil to afflict, like sending Paul a demon to torment him, we lose part of our will if not all of it. Think about Nebbachadnezer, he was subject to being an animal for 7 years crawling around on all fours. God made him that way. Or the two people in Acts who lose their lives for lying about finances to the Holy Spirit... The list goes on. I'm not saying I'm objecting to God or his decisions. If anything I welcome his ways, even if they cause me to be controlled. I'm just talking about how preachers always say "God doesn't infringe on the free will of man". Where in the Bible does it say that? From what I've read, it doesn't say that. What do you think?
Well witnessed by the HELP of the HOLY SPIRIT and boldly well you have testified to us and thank you for pointing out deception among preachers. JESUS and the Apostles to the churches warned to look out for them and expose them for others to be alert from their deception. They were ever present after JESUS and the Apostles only as far as i know, correct and warn their churches to watch out for them, than rather with them imposters.

The Apostles even said that some of them were among them in the beginning and have gone ahead of them to preach to their churches. It is similar to today's Preachers who they have gone ahead of the HOLY SPIRIT, their Teacher of the Holy Scripture, even the New Covenant in whole, 'to be taught and to be trained first, in order to all kind of Good deeds'. Apostle John in his epistle reminded the church to distinguish between spirit of error and spirit of truth. It is the leaders of the church who welcome them to preach in the congregation. It is nothing new and thanks to our HELPER the HOLY SPIRIT about the HOLY BIBLE, sent by LORD JESUS CHRIST, by the will of the FATHER.

Even Apostle Paul spoke about people like them, that;

"Even satan disguises himself as an angel of light(Gospel) and it is not surprising that his servants (carnal/flesh descent) disguises themselves as servants of righteousness."

Young Timothy was prepared by Apostle Paul, to watch out for itching ears and bullies who long for a twisted Gospel to suite their twisted thinking of their selfish feelings and desires, life with this world in the flesh/carnal and yet keep salvation.

In my experience these preachers suite my carnal/flesh living as a Christian in this world but other Scripture, in my personal readings with the HOLY SPIRIT contradict, correcting and justifying future second condemnation by CHRIST Himself. People who thought they were saved and always saved and have eternal life and who further labored effortlessly for CHRIST, were the ones who HE rejects and condemn by their own MASTER, as workers of 'lawlessness'. They did not believe there is a Law written and established by shedding of bloods and as the New Covenant given to 'abide' and they continued in ministries for CHRIST, using their placed gifts for free i them, working to their advantage in the worldly necessities and pleasures. For example about the Law given to 'abide';

"The Law written in the Old Covenant and in the conscience of the Gentiles, enslaves if practiced. But the Law written in the New Covenant liberates, if one who is born again 'Abide' in all of them as law abiding citizens."


Free will is in every men. but GOD in HIS everlasting Grace controls the discipline of Heaven and earth. HE allow beings in Heaven and on earth to make choices but when that choices over bound HIS righteousness, then HE intervenes for the sake of HIS righteous ones not to be corrupted as well, in their practices. People of GOD have no more choices, when they were rescued by GOD in HIS Grace of pity towards them and they all have agreed to live under HIS Covenant to be looked after and kept safe. But when they compromise and after many warnings of HIS messengers, they still persist forward in the same manner, then HE removes the protection and spiritual or physical enemies invade and devour. These enemies who were afraid of them then, are now allowed to do such things to HIS own people only for a while. Because HE will deal with them later and is also brutal in punishment.

Since n the beginning the HOLY BIBLE records of men's free will being cautioned and dealt with from time to time until today. To born again that free will is to be buried as have declared publicly through Baptism of the flesh/carnal and now a new creature, called to continue in the thinking and to the works according to the HOLY SPIRIT, that is continue in HIS Spiritual knowledge of the New Covenant first and then 'abiding' in all of them witnessing to the world.
 
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#16
Some people think man's will is sovereign
some people forget that man's will is fallen
some people forget that man's will is not his hope
 
Mar 10, 2013
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#17
I think differently than this and differently than most posts here. So let me offer my thoughts. You asked some questions I will surmise them.

"What about Pharaoh? What about the man born blind? What about Job?

I'm just talking about how preachers always say "God doesn't infringe on the free will of man". Where in the Bible does it say that? From what I've read, it doesn't say that. What do you think? "

There is no denying that mankind has its own will. From the beginning when it was written, "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Consider all the law and commands of God. These laws tell us what we should and should not do. IF we did not have free will to either do God's will or not then God would not have given us laws nor would it be possible for us to love God because. "Love for God is obedience to His commands." and one of those commands is to Love the Lord our God with all our heart and soul and strength. IN order for us to obey and Love God we have to have a choice to disobey.

What we call free will is of course limited. We can not chose when we are born or what color we are or how tall we get or who our parents are or what country we are born into. We do not get to choose whether or not we are born healthy or sick. Neither do we get to choose how long we live or the circumstances of our death. So there are obviously things that we are free to choose but also many things which we have no choice about. Your Questions about the blind man and Job both fit into this category.

I think the real question here is about does God ever IMPOSE His will on anyone at any time. I expect that this is a possibility. Certainly God could impose His will on anyone anytime or on all of us all the time but remember what Jesus taught us to pray? "Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." I find these things interesting because I desire God's will in all circumstances all the time particularly everything I say and think and do. I willingly submit to God. God certainly taught me what humility is, He taught me it was important to practice and also empowered me to practice. Even if I desire God to impose HIs will upon me so that I might never sin again God will not do so.

IN conclusion I have not heard any preacher ever say "God does not infringe on our free will." IF a man were to say this HE would be mistaken in my opinion. Scripture does not say this directly anywhere. However, nor have I read any instance of God IMPOSING His will in scripture. Yes I read all the posts here, I could add many more questionable situations similar to the ones listed but is this imposition or something else? Thanks for the post.
 
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#18
Humanity has a very limited free will. No one had any will to decide when and where they were born. No one has any will to decide what physical handicaps they have or mental capasity. No one has the will to determine what happens to them after death. The only free will we have is what we think and do during this short life we have on this earth.

The question then is can our limited free will during this short life determine our eternal destiny and overcome the will of God. And this is where I find myself perplexed because we find in scripture that God desires for none to perish but for all to come to repentance, while also finding those who reject Christ have no hope of salvation.

I find it impossible to believe that God created humanity to suffer in eternal damnation (lake of fire). Why would a loving God create some to be tortured eternally? It makes no sense to me.

"The light shined into the darkness and the darkness could not overcome it." From this and other scriptures I am led to believe that we are incapable of overcoming the will of God. If it is the will of God for all to come to repentance then all will come to repent.

Certainly there is great suffering and sorrow in this world, and evil is all around us. But scripture teaches that God works all things for the good for those who are in Christ Jesus. And who then are in Christ? "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe."

I realize the common belief is God will condemn many to eternal torture and suffering, but I am convinced that this judgement after death is not eternal but is to bring all to repentance. Those who repent in this world and love God and one another will not have to endure this punishment after death. This is what I have come to believe.

just a thought.
 

Patnubay

Senior Member
May 27, 2014
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#19
What about Pharoah? God deliberately hardened his heart to display his power through him! God usurped Pharaoh's "free will".
This issue can be refuted by God's foreknowledge of Pharaoh future decision. Pharaoh hardened his own heart ( Exodus 8: 32 ). Effectively, God was just saying He tolerated the Pharaoh's decision to harden his heart.

about the man borned blind? The disciples asked Jesus what sin caused him to suffer blindness since birth. But Jesus said he was born blind so that the glory of God would be revealed in and through him. God purposely made that man blind. That's controlling someone's life.
Definitely not. Following you're line of thought, if you're created as man, God violated your freewill to give birth or be a mother. It does not make sense.

about Job? Think about the family he had that God allowed the devil to kill. They had no choice, they died. Their "free will" to live was infringed on. Then there's Job who suffered all that loss and sickness.
Life and death are never part of freewill. Jesus said He is the Alpha and the Omega. You have no authority to shorten or lengthen your life.


God allows the devil to afflict, like sending Paul a demon to torment him, we lose part of our will if not all of it. Think about Nebbachadnezer, he was subject to being an animal for 7 years crawling around on all fours.
If one murders, one goes to jail. His freewill is his decision to murder, his jail time is the consequence of his exercise of his freewill. Nebuchadnezzar's big mouth caused him to have that punishment. His big mouth is his freewill.

made him that way. Or the two people in Acts who lose their lives for lying about finances to the Holy Spirit... The list goes on. I'm not saying I'm objecting to God or his decisions. If anything I welcome his ways, even if they cause me to be controlled. I'm just talking about how preachers always say "God doesn't infringe on the free will of man". Where in the Bible does it say that? From what I've read, it doesn't say that. What do you think?
Annanias' and Sapphira's death was a consequence of wrong use of freewill like the case of Nebuchadnezzar. They received the consequence not a violation of their freewill.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#20
Humanity has a very limited free will. No one had any will to decide when and where they were born. No one has any will to decide what physical handicaps they have or mental capasity. No one has the will to determine what happens to them after death. The only free will we have is what we think and do during this short life we have on this earth.
Man in this life has the freewill to choose to do righteousness and be saved or choose to do unrighteousness and be lost. Rom 2:6 God "will render to every man according to his deeds:" So what deeds a man freely chooses to do will determine his eternal fate after death. If man had no freewill at all, then man could only do those deeds God forces him to do then God would render unto every man according to GOD's deeds that God forced man to do....which is senseless.