Confusion over gods qualities

bob56789 · Sep 18, 2014

Hi everyone. Again, I would just like to insert this at the start of this post to emphasize that I am sincere in my respect for the fact that everyone has beliefs, or lack of, and I am not here to cause upset, intentionally offend anyone, or cause any other bad feelings towards anyone. This post in entirely serious and I would appreciate some sincere, serious insight in return. Like I said, I'm just a guy.

Okay so please, from the get-go, forgive the childish analogy. I don't feel it needs to be dressed up, sexed up or sugar-coated to get my point across. I'm sure this question has been asked before, or this observation pointed out, but it hasn't for me which is why I'm asking and I hope it will be well received, and with patience.

If god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent - if these are his qualities, as told to man from god, how does this work. Again forgive the immature example here - I was asked a question a while back, quite simply: can god create a puzzle so complex that even he cannot solve it - the paradox immediately became clear to me. I'm hoping someone can shed some sensible light on this for me. If the answer to that - and it could of course be replaced with endless example or scenarios - is yes, then this disproves his all-powerful ability, if the answer is no, then the result is the same.

Not it's not the question itself, my confusion comes from the concept of god being those three things, among others of course, but the all powerful and all-knowing clash with each other fiercely. Why would god have made it known that these were his qualities (if I'm mistaken here I apologize) and create such a conundrum for people like myself?

As I say, it's not my intention to offend, it's my intention to understand. Thanks

crossnote · Sep 18, 2014

The creation or thing created can never be bigger, stronger, wiser, more complex etc., that the Creator of that thing.

bob56789 · Sep 18, 2014

I appreciate you taking the time to respond but that doesn't really address my confusion. I mean, if god is all powerful does he have the power to change his mind - this is a paradox because god is also all-knowing. So it creates confusion. Now I know god is meant to be beyond comprehension but those two qualities themselves are not beyond comprehension and nor is the paradox it creates. Can god create a rock so heavy even he can't lift it - that sort of idea, ya know? And with the utmost respect, because I am here respectfully - your answer to my question, although greatly appreciated - is a paradox in itself because it raises the same question - to have someone with limitless power raises more questions - it's an infinite regress. The creator cannot outwit himself even though he has endless knowledge and power but in not being able to do this, the creator is not all powerful. Do you see what I mean and why I'm confused? Thank you for your response crossnote

breno785au · Sep 18, 2014

His ways, His wisdom and thoughts are so far above our own any attempt to try to understand from human logic is futile and will get you know where. Your questions may seem like valid ones and probably are but the only way to come close to even grasping the answers is to humble ourselves before Him, walk with Him and ask Him yourself.
This may seem like a cop out to some as I have been told before but that's the only answer I have for now.

oldhermit · Sep 18, 2014

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In an effort to conceptualize God, man has posed such questions as, where did God come from, how big is God, how long is eternity, can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it, or in the example of you OP question, "can God create a puzzle so complex that even he cannot solve it?" These and other such questions attempt to understand God within[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the confines of time, space, and human reason.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Since man draws upon comparisons to understand things in this world, he quite naturally tries to understand God in the same way. In the absence of revelation, he can do nothing else. Man feels that he must be able to qualify and quantify[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]everything in order to understand and categorize it. The mind of the skeptic may find it difficult to accept the reality of something that cannot be proven empirically. In the struggle of the[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]human mind to explain the nature of God, man has insisted upon measuring God through the process of natural comparisons. Since God stands outside of man’s ability to rationalize, it is impossible to conceptualize God in terms of time and space.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Since we have nothing in our experience with which to compare God or eternity, these questions can add nothing to our understanding of God. God cannot be confined to time or space nor defined by any human metric. These are parameters of strictly linear measurements and can tell us nothing of the[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]unseen world.[/FONT] There is no paradox with God. The [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]discontinuity[/FONT] that exists is not with God, it is with human reason.

crossnote · Sep 18, 2014

bob56789 said:

I appreciate you taking the time to respond but that doesn't really address my confusion. I mean, if god is all powerful does he have the power to change his mind - this is a paradox because god is also all-knowing. So it creates confusion. Now I know god is meant to be beyond comprehension but those two qualities themselves are not beyond comprehension and nor is the paradox it creates. Can god create a rock so heavy even he can't lift it - that sort of idea, ya know? And with the utmost respect, because I am here respectfully - your answer to my question, although greatly appreciated - is a paradox in itself because it raises the same question - to have someone with limitless power raises more questions - it's an infinite regress. The creator cannot outwit himself even though he has endless knowledge and power but in not being able to do this, the creator is not all powerful. Do you see what I mean and why I'm confused? Thank you for your response crossnote

Changing His mind in relation to eternalness would be an impossibility...knowing all things perfectly there'd be no need to.

RedTent · Sep 18, 2014

It is so important for us all to learn how to study the word of God. We know there is great confusion for God has taught using many methods over thousands of years. We see things from a few dimensions we understand, God know all dimensions. Scripture uses men from many different cultures to explain, we only really know our culture.

I have met a man who I respect for his ability to study scripture. He uses many different methods, not just one. Always, his goal is to accept God as supreme to his thinking, to not add or take away from his word. He has studied cultures of all the different times God uses, and all the different nations the scripture speaks of. He works to be sure he accepts scripture as both a spiritual teaching and that God uses literal physical happenings to explain them, never seeing a teaching as one dimensional. He never reads any scripture as opposed or changing any other scripture. For instance, when scripture teaches about the blood of animals for atonement and the blood of Christ for atonement, this man looks for the connection between the teachings. I am impressed and use these guidelines in my study.

By using these guidelines for study, I find that God sometimes changes his mind about how He will react to what we do, usually deciding to hold back judgment. God never changes any of His attributes. Scripture says God is eternal, we can depend on that as truth.

crossnote · Sep 18, 2014

The Cross is the door to the beginning of an eternal knowing and relationship with God...not high falutent (sp) philosophies of man.

dcontroversal · Sep 18, 2014

My answer would be the following...

1. God's ways are higher than our ways and he would not pursue such things...
2. It is impossible for God to LIE<---HOW does this jive with God being ALL POWERFUL?
3. There are some things that we cannot comprehend with a finite mind when trying to understand the INFINITE...

At the end of the day it comes down to simple faith....Either you believe or you don't seems to be the overall conundrum that you are struggling with...eh?

Red_Tory · Sep 18, 2014

bob56789 said:

I think the problem comes from a mistaken assumption that "all-powerful" means that God is able to do or create "anything."

In the traditional metaphysical conception of operative relationships, there is a division between Act and Potency - actual and potential states of being. For instance, an unhewn block of marble is actually a square block of marble, but it is potentially a statue; an acorn is now actually an acorn, but it is potentially.

When a sculptor carves a statue or the sun shines on a young sapling, "motion" is said to be taking place - the eduction of the potential to the actual. The oak tree which formerly existed only as a possibility becomes an actuality.

I would venture to say that power, simply put, is the ability to turn a potential state of affairs into an actual state of affairs. For instance, power is exercised when an egg boils on the stove - the heat of the water changes the contents of the egg, hardening it. Or perhaps we can see a car being propelled by the forces generated by the engine under the hood - hence "horsepower."

So an exercise of power involves an agent that is in Act, a recipient that is in Potency, and an eduction of Potency to Act. That is to say, the exercise of power involves an agent of change, a changed object, and the process by which that change takes place.

One might say that power is simply the ability to change something that exists potentially into something that exists actually. Hence one way of understanding the statement "God is omnipotent" is to say that God can bring anything that exists potentially and make it exist actually.

Does that concept of power make any sense?

psychomom · Sep 18, 2014

crossnote said:

i sometimes watch a cartoon with my SIL called "Futurama".

my SIL is a geek, and i love that kid.

i remember one episode where one character asks some philosophical question
of a farmer working in his field.
the farmer replied, "Philosophy's for thems that doesn't has to work for a living."

most human philosophy will not blend with the Word of God, either.
i've studied philosophy a little. and then wondered why i spent time on it.

crossnote · Sep 18, 2014

psychomom said:

Now from a conceptual frame of reference, did you spend time 'in' it or 'on' it and could time even be an object of such abstract analysis and all that blah blah blah

bob56789 · Sep 18, 2014

I appreciate this but these aren't your words - these are someone else's. Surely god in his infinite wisdom passed down his godly qualities to man in a manner that they would understand - it seems absurd, with the utmost respect, to simply say that the glaring paradox is beyond our comprehension and is therefore not a paradox at all.. The reality is of course that there is no proof to support the existence of god. As for quantifying something to understand, I don't fully understand how oxygen works but I know it's there and there's plenty of evidence to back this up. To be honest, what you have quoted are human reasons for not understanding something which is apparently beyond our comprehension. How does man know that god is beyond comprehension when god told man of these qualities in question which he possesses. And why would god bother telling man he has such qualities - all power, all knowledge - if he knew it was going to be lost in translation. The concept was established so man would think twice before sinning, to the detriment of whoever, yet when it comes to a discussion like this, conveniently god is now beyond out comprehension, yet it was god himself who gave us this understanding of his qualities, presumably in a bid to give us clarity as to how we should conduct ourselves. Every time some question is asked, based on the bible, which you claim is the word of your god, which cannot be explained without obvious holes or creating an infinite regress, people such as yourself, with the utmost respect, seem to resort to the "god is beyond our understanding" rationale. Th ebible is man made. If the claim that god is all knowing and all powerful and all seeing is a contradiction, then it is so because man got it wrong, and this casts doubt on your god anyhow. If god is all powerful this is a definitive thing. So to tell me that an all powerful being is actually limited in power - which is what you have done with this response - mocks god and once again casts the credibility of your faith into doubt. Why bother saying he is all powerful if he's not, or he actually is but what we understand to be ALL POWERFUL isn't actually what he is, and if he isn't what we think he is then what is he, because on one hand you tell me it's my inability as a human to understand that is the problem, yet when it comes to your idea of why there is no paradox, suddenly you have a complete understanding, a human understanding, of how to explain such a question as mine. How do you even know you have it right and what you think are qualities of god are actually untrue. How can you even back up this body of text you've plagiarized to answer my genuine question?

oldhermit · Sep 18, 2014

bob56789 said:

I appreciate this but these aren't your words - these are someone else's. Surely god in his infinite wisdom passed down his godly qualities to man in a manner that they would understand - it seems absurd, with the utmost respect, to simply say that the glaring paradox is beyond our comprehension and is therefore not a paradox at all.. The reality is of course that there is no proof to support the existence of god. As for quantifying something to understand, I don't fully understand how oxygen works but I know it's there and there's plenty of evidence to back this up. To be honest, what you have quoted are human reasons for not understanding something which is apparently beyond our comprehension. How does man know that god is beyond comprehension when god told man of these qualities in question which he possesses. And why would god bother telling man he has such qualities - all power, all knowledge - if he knew it was going to be lost in translation. The concept was established so man would think twice before sinning, to the detriment of whoever, yet when it comes to a discussion like this, conveniently god is now beyond out comprehension, yet it was god himself who gave us this understanding of his qualities, presumably in a bid to give us clarity as to how we should conduct ourselves. Every time some question is asked, based on the bible, which you claim is the word of your god, which cannot be explained without obvious holes or creating an infinite regress, people such as yourself, with the utmost respect, seem to resort to the "god is beyond our understanding" rationale. Th ebible is man made. If the claim that god is all knowing and all powerful and all seeing is a contradiction, then it is so because man got it wrong, and this casts doubt on your god anyhow. If god is all powerful this is a definitive thing. So to tell me that an all powerful being is actually limited in power - which is what you have done with this response - mocks god and once again casts the credibility of your faith into doubt. Why bother saying he is all powerful if he's not, or he actually is but what we understand to be ALL POWERFUL isn't actually what he is, and if he isn't what we think he is then what is he, because on one hand you tell me it's my inability as a human to understand that is the problem, yet when it comes to your idea of why there is no paradox, suddenly you have a complete understanding, a human understanding, of how to explain such a question as mine. How do you even know you have it right and what you think are qualities of god are actually untrue. How can you even back up this body of text you've plagiarized to answer my genuine question?

Who are you referring to?

bob56789 · Sep 18, 2014

50% of american christians believe god takes an active role in the outcome of the sporting events they follow - this is fact. So why would god not pursue such things - unless half of the christian population of america are wrong of course? I may have misunderstood but if you are telling me it is impossible for god to lie then he is not all powerful. All powerful means to have no constraints, and on this cosmic level, there would be no constraint from anything, so if god cannot lie god is not all powerful. it would have made much more sense to say that god can lie but is perfect so chooses not to. With regard to point three, with the utmost respect, this is a cop out - something cannot be explained without raising more questions so you simply label it as "beyond our comprehension" - if god loves us all and wants us all to go to heaven, why make so many things out of reach of the human ability to grasp such things as youve mentioned. The answer "it's a test" will not suffice. God, by your understanding, already knows whats going to happen before it happens - why should people with inquisitive minds such as myself spend an eternity in hell because i have the sense to ask questions before accepting such a large claim as this. I seem to always meet the same answer - abandon all sense of curiosity, do not question things you do not understand, just accept it. This makes no sense sir

bob56789 · Sep 18, 2014

Respectfully, I am referring to you sir. Unless of course you wrote these words elsewhere and published them on the internet before this conversation, then those words are not your own. Please let me emphasize once again that I am not attacking anyone, nor trying to offend anyone

oldhermit · Sep 18, 2014

bob56789 said:

50% of american christians believe god takes an active role in the outcome of the sporting events they follow - this is fact. So why would god not pursue such things - unless half of the christian population of america are wrong of course? I may have misunderstood but if you are telling me it is impossible for god to lie then he is not all powerful. All powerful means to have no constraints, and on this cosmic level, there would be no constraint from anything, so if god cannot lie god is not all powerful. it would have made much more sense to say that god can lie but is perfect so chooses not to. With regard to point three, with the utmost respect, this is a cop out - something cannot be explained without raising more questions so you simply label it as "beyond our comprehension" - if god loves us all and wants us all to go to heaven, why make so many things out of reach of the human ability to grasp such things as youve mentioned. The answer "it's a test" will not suffice. God, by your understanding, already knows whats going to happen before it happens - why should people with inquisitive minds such as myself spend an eternity in hell because i have the sense to ask questions before accepting such a large claim as this. I seem to always meet the same answer - abandon all sense of curiosity, do not question things you do not understand, just accept it. This makes no sense sir

Scripture tells us that God cannot lie. The fact that God cannot lie is not a limitation of his nature. By reason of the fact of the holiness of God he simply cannot violate his nature. If he could this would be a contradiction of his character and violation of his nature. If he could violate his own nature, he would not be God.

oldhermit · Sep 18, 2014

bob56789 said:

Yes, these words are published under my name on line.

bob56789 · Sep 18, 2014

You are missing the point good sir - firstly, you are talking as if you have an understanding of gods ways, yet if i posed a different question to you, you would tell me I am misguided because no man can understand gods ways. I am constantly told that god is beyond all human comprehension - yet with this discussion you talk as if you understand him perfectly. The concept of god being all powerful and all knowing means that he cannot change his mind, even if he wanted to, because ultimately he would know he was going to do this in the first place - this causes any scenario to pan out as some sort of pre-determined event - he can change his mind a million times but if he is all knowing then he knows he is going to, therefore there is no choice, therefore he is not all powerful. He can be one, but not the other, unless I am missing the point and god is beyond my comprehension, in which case he would also be beyond yours, in which case what you just said has no weight whatsoever because you are assuming that you have insight into the ways of god. The fact you use the word 'impossibility' when referring to a supernatural being who is beyond all understanding is a misstep.

bob56789 · Sep 18, 2014

Then you sir have my respect for having published such a thing and I genuinely take my hat off to you. That is sincere, I assure you of this. My other points however do still stand

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