We establish the Law...but how?

JesusIsAll · Sep 19, 2014

Okay, here we go again,

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Galatians 5:13-14 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now, would somebody please post Exodus and Leviticus, lest we drown in New Testament simplicity and clarity?

psychomom · Sep 19, 2014

WomanLovesTX said:

all the blessings of the Law are for those who keep it.
perfectly.
all the curses of the Law are for those who break it.

so all the blessings are rightfully Christ's, and all the curses, ours.

but God in Christ has given us His righteous, perfect Lawkeeping obedience, er, scorecard, if you will.
just as Christ took all the curses which rightfully belong to us on the cross. (2 Cor 5:21)

we receive that by grace, through faith.
that's what the Law tells us, and better, what the Gospel tells us. ♥

Apostol2013 · Sep 19, 2014

Well before one even begins endlesss debates due to misunderstanding of covenant structure and legislature , one needs to deeper study all covenants including man's fall wich is a covenant itself

RedTent · Sep 19, 2014

You are all trying to make the word of the Lord fit into your scheme of things instead of listening and finding out what the conditions were that God was speaking to. We are given scripture to learn from, not to use as tools to develop our reasoning powers so everything fits a formula of our making.

It is true that God is giving eternal truths that apply to all ages and times, but if we don't know the situations it is addressing we can't understand the eternal truths. Without understanding these things, people say scripture speaks against the law when scripture says the law is holy. You cannot know what scripture is saying without knowing the problems it is solving. That takes learning on many levels, one necessary one is knowing what a verse is referring to.

I didn't learn to know the world as it was in Jerusalem in one place, in one afternoon. I can't tell you about the lifestyle of different sects of the Jews and how different gentiles lived in one paragraph on CC. I can only tell you that if you would get off your duff and find out these things you could understand what the epistles tells us about the law and how we are to use it. If you understood the problems the Epistles addressed, you would never again say that Paul said not to listen to the law. You would not have to wonder how law and grace fit together. There would be no argument about scripture telling us we should obey the law the very best we can and that we are not under law.

RedTent · Sep 19, 2014

psychomom said:

To follow this line of thinking, the divorce of acts from everything that God gives us so there is no connection between our spirit and our life here on earth, then there are no wages for any job well done.

If we have a Godly marriage, give love and respect to each other, raise our children in the light of the Lord we live in a world of blessings. Do you think we should not enjoy those blessings that come from the Lord?

psychomom · Sep 19, 2014

RedTent said:

You are all trying to make the word of the Lord fit into your scheme of things instead of listening and finding out what the conditions were that God was speaking to. We are given scripture to learn from, not to use as tools to develop our reasoning powers so everything fits a formula of our making.

It is true that God is giving eternal truths that apply to all ages and times, but if we don't know the situations it is addressing we can't understand the eternal truths. Without understanding these things, people say scripture speaks against the law when scripture says the law is holy. You cannot know what scripture is saying without knowing the problems it is solving. That takes learning on many levels, one necessary one is knowing what a verse is referring to.

I didn't learn to know the world as it was in Jerusalem in one place, in one afternoon. I can't tell you about the lifestyle of different sects of the Jews and how different gentiles lived in one paragraph on CC. I can only tell you that if you would get off your duff and find out these things you could understand what the epistles tells us about the law and how we are to use it. If you understood the problems the Epistles addressed, you would never again say that Paul said not to listen to the law. You would not have to wonder how law and grace fit together. There would be no argument about scripture telling us we should obey the law the very best we can and that we are not under law.

Ma'am, please will you tell us what you think is meant by Rom. 3:31?

crossnote · Sep 20, 2014

Ok gang, let's try to focus. The passage has nothing to do with us (except in terms of faith) but every thing to do with Christ...as well as the context of Rom 3:31.

(from the 2nd paragraph in the OP)

"Thus and thus only was the commandment of Jehovah established—by the execution of the penalty. Paul preached Christ crucified: that Christ died for our sins, that “He tasted death for every man.” And that Israel, who were under the Law, He redeemed from the curse of that Law by being made a curse for them. Thus the cross established law; for the full penalty of all that was against the Divine majesty, against God’s holiness. His righteousness, His truth, was forever met, and that not according to man’s conception of what sin and its penalty should be, but according to God’s judgment, according to the measure of the sanctuary, of high heaven itself!"

Context of Rom 3:31

for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God, for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus. Then where is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through a Law of faith. Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of Law. Or is He the God of Jews only, and not also of the nations? Yes, of the nations also, since it is one God who will justify circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Then is the Law annulled through faith? Let it not be! But we establish Law.
(Rom 3:23-31)

What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God. For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." (Gen. 15:6) Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
(Rom 4:1-4)

Nothing to do with our walk or the Holy Spirit in context...but all about Christ and faith in His finished work.

psychomom · Sep 20, 2014

RedTent said:

as crossnote just said...it's not about our 'wages', thank God.

the blessings we receive come from Jesus' perfect obedience for us.

RedTent · Sep 20, 2014

psychomom said:

I think we have to read the entire third chapter, and know the problem it is addressing. Christ was new to people of that time, no one had a thought about Christ not being of God. Most Jews simply "knew" that if God would accept you it was necessary to become a Jew and if you weren't one naturally you must be accepted into the Jewish race passing all sort of tests, including fleshly circumcision. Even Christian Jews thought that. Those things were the law. This entire chapter is addressing that problem in thinking. God blessed the Jew for how He used the Jews for the sake of teaching man the kingdom, but through Christ there was to be no division any more. At that time it would be absolutely unthinkable to say that the law was the ten commandments. To them, the law was what practices Jews did to keep them separate from gentiles. All people at that time accepted Jewish practices as the law.

We need to understand that all scripture teaches grace and faith only for atonement. There are scriptures saying we are blessed by obedience, but none that say we are saved by obedience in the entire scriptures. All scripture also teach law, obeyed in spirit and truth, never legalistically. Paul taught law as he absolutely ranted against using physical law as a requirement for salvation, using it for salvation, or as what is necessary to obey law.

psychomom · Sep 20, 2014

RedTent said:

I think we have to read the entire third chapter, and know the problem it is addressing. Christ was new to people of that time, no one had a thought about Christ not being of God. Most Jews simply "knew" that if God would accept you it was necessary to become a Jew and if you weren't one naturally you must be accepted into the Jewish race passing all sort of tests, including fleshly circumcision. Even Christian Jews thought that. Those things were the law. This entire chapter is addressing that problem in thinking. God blessed the Jew for how He used the Jews for the sake of teaching man the kingdom, but through Christ there was to be no division any more. At that time it would be absolutely unthinkable to say that the law was the ten commandments. To them, the law was what practices Jews did to keep them separate from gentiles. All people at that time accepted Jewish practices as the law.

We need to understand that all scripture teaches grace and faith only for atonement. There are scriptures saying we are blessed by obedience, but none that say we are saved by obedience in the entire scriptures. All scripture also teach law, obeyed in spirit and truth, never legalistically. Paul taught law as he absolutely ranted against using physical law as a requirement for salvation, using it for salvation, or as what is necessary to obey law.

thank you for taking the time to answer.

i'm not sure, though, that we're reading the same chapter.

Apostol2013 · Sep 20, 2014

psychomom said:

that is an uneducated viewpoint , to better understand this matter you will need to be learned and there is such a thing of having an outercoating and no substance , this is the very thing wich peter spoke about wich the unlearned will use the letters of paul to their own destruction . due to lack of knowledge and the wisdom to understand but do not worry about making mistakes but we are all learning and learning never stops no matter what level we are at , even a child can teach an old cat a trick . but true wisdom comes from God and jesus came to establish spiritual order and the commandment keeping will come naturally by the spirit if we are willing , we can say do not murder but he that hates his brother is just as bad and he that calls his brother worthless has just executed spiritual murder and is in danger of hells fire . you see in the spirit we walk , and we that walk after the spirit do not break the commandments for in the spirit the yoke is broken , but if one does find themselves in sin then it is a call to confess and repent while simultaneously thinking of the mindframe and actions that led you there , when we become educated in the things of God we are no longer ignorant of the truths and stand firm knowing true form

crossnote · Sep 20, 2014

Apostol2013 said:

that is an uneducated viewpoint , to better understand this matter you will need to be learned and there is such a thing of having an outercoating and no substance , this is the very thing wich peter spoke about wich the unlearned will use the letters of paul to their own destruction . due to lack of knowledge and the wisdom to understand but do not worry about making mistakes but we are all learning and learning never stops no matter what level we are at , even a child can teach an old cat a trick . but true wisdom comes from God and jesus came to establish spiritual order and the commandment keeping will come naturally by the spirit if we are willing , we can say do not murder but he that hates his brother is just as bad and he that calls his brother worthless has just executed spiritual murder and is in danger of hells fire . you see in the spirit we walk , and we that walk after the spirit do not break the commandments for in the spirit the yoke is broken , but if one does find themselves in sin then it is a call to confess and repent while simultaneously thinking of the mindframe and actions that led you there , when we become educated in the things of God we are no longer ignorant of the truths and stand firm knowing true form

Could you try addressing the OP...or at least keep it close to Romans 3:31?

Kaycie · Sep 20, 2014

Jesus tells us how we establish the law in Matthew 22:40. He says if you love God and love your neighbor you will fulfill the law- for who murders or steals from their neighbor at the same time that they are loving God and loving their neighbor? Whether you live under the old covenant and obey God's law physically, or you live under the new covenant and obey God's law spiritually, God is still being obeyed.

RedTent · Sep 20, 2014

psychomom said:

You and I both listen to scripture. Yet we read a chapter differently! I think our differences stem for defining what Paul says the law of Moses is. Is that every instruction bible gives or the instructions given Jews about how their day to day living could represent biblical truth and serve to separate them from gentiles. My definition of Law of Moses has lots of ingredients in it. There is history, Paul's declaration that he is Torah observant and I don't think Paul would lie, and searching all Paul says about law, and spending a lot of time on every line of scripture about law, knowing each scripture about it is truth. I don't believe there is a chance that Paul doesn't speak for the Lord, yet if you believe what Paul says about law as all law including the ten commandments, Paul could not be speaking with the same voice as the Lord. I don't for a minute think Paul is wrong, so I felt sure I had to learn more of Paul to see how he was not changing other scripture.

I think you and I could reason together for hours and neither could come to agree with the other about what it says. We could only know neither of us is saved through what we understand this chapter says, but we are both saved through our faith in Christ and His grace.

May I ask you to explain why you feel Paul was talking against law other than it is not to be used for salvation. Everyone knows that, it isn't part of the differences we have.

RedTent · Sep 20, 2014

Kaycie said:

I don't think you understand the old covenant. It has nothing to do with our salvation. The entire book of Isaiah, and it was old covenant time, speaks against only obeying God's law physically. In the very first chapter it talks to people who were performing sacraments only physically and it says God hates those sacraments. The covenant with Moses says that God will bless you for obedience and curse for disobedience. You don't have to read the bible to know this. Just look at the difference in happiness between people in prison for breaking law and those who live a Godly life. Christ reaches into prisons and saves people there all the time.

JamesMcClay · Sep 20, 2014

Ver simple. The law is spiritual. The law is establishes IN US as we believe the Gospel. In other words, the victory over ALL SIN is established as we FIGHT to lay hold of what He gave us at the Cross.

Remember Jesus said "You have heard thou shalt not kill, but I say whoever is angry with his brother without cause has committed murder in his heart". If God delivers you from anger, than he has established that part of the Law IN YOU.

Apostol2013 · Sep 20, 2014

crossnote said:

th e gift of grace is well crossnote my post was adressing such as God's commandments are much in effect all His right precepts stand , if one studies the creation covenant you will see God's order and precept
for us

RedTent · Sep 20, 2014

JamesMcClay said:

This gets into the old argument, are we to read scripture as spiritual or literal? I think God is multidimensional, knowing of more dimensions than we are aware of. If we say scripture is one dimensional such as saying it is spiritual without recognizing the way it is meant to carry over to the physical, we miss many points.

That is what the Jews did, say it was physical. That got them in a lot of trouble. We can do the same kind of thing, saying it is only spiritual and reach misunderstanding.

crossnote · Sep 20, 2014

I guess ADD/ADHD is more rampant than I thought.

Kaycie · Sep 20, 2014

Of course those under the old covenant had to also obey from the heart- but the old covenant was a physical covenant- they had to stone people to death, they had to sacrifice a physical lamb without blemish, David fought physical battles for the the Lord. But the new covenant is spiritual ...

Ephesians 6...

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvationand the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

We establish the Law...but how?

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