When did God first reveal himself to humans?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T

Tintin

Guest
#21
I haven't read that one yet but I have read others.

"The Babylonian origin of the biblical story of the Flood (Genesis 6–10) is well known since George Smith (in 1872) identified the Babyloniannarration of the deluge in a tablet from Ashurbanipal’s library. In spite of the clumsy and ignorant opposition of more conservative circles who considered that both stories (and others) could be dated back, via a ‘memory’ stretching over millennia, to a real event of geological times, here we havea clear case of literary transmission. The parallels between the biblicalstory and Babylonian versions of the myth preserved in the Atrahasis and
Gilgamesh epics, are too numerous and precise. The very resting of theark ‘on the mountains of Urartu [Ararat]’ (Gen. 8.4) not only reveals the Babylonian origin of the biblical narration, but also places its transmissionin the Neo-Babylonian age." Pg. 234 Israel's History and the History of Israel - Mario Liverani

The creation story is a copy of the Babylonian Enuma Elish. Look, the order is the same!
View attachment 88714
Comparing the Genesis and Babylonian stories of creation
Seriously. Go read that book I told you to. I didn't tell you to do so because it's a waste of time and because it doesn't contain anything of value. Nor did I recommend the book because it doesn't have any evidence for the Great Flood of the Bible being the original account and all others being either corruptions or fanciful storytelling adapted from the Genesis account by Noah or his sons.
 
C

Celsus

Guest
#23
Seriously. Go read that book I told you to. I didn't tell you to do so because it's a waste of time and because it doesn't contain anything of value. Nor did I recommend the book because it doesn't have any evidence for the Great Flood of the Bible being the original account and all others being either corruptions or fanciful storytelling adapted from the Genesis account by Noah or his sons.
Ok, since you've read the book and are familiar with it - How does Cooper explain the parallels between the Genesis account and the Babylonian Enuma Elish creation account?
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#24
My review of the book I'm seriously recommending.

The Authenticity of the Book of Genesis by William R. Cooper is a brilliant book in any sense of the word. I will borrow my following summary liberally from the back cover.

In this single volume Dr Bill Cooper takes on the challenge of the globally accepted media's opinion of the Scriptures we call the Bible. He argues from hard evidence that the Bible is historically accurate throughout - in everything, prophetical, geographical, linguistic and doctrinal.

Part One of this book deals with the antiquity of Genesis (Creation to Joseph), showing how each of its component parts is considerably older than any of the sources proposed for it by the modernist school.

Part Two deals with the pre-Christian Flood traditions that are found around the world, which together present a formidable body of evidence for the truth of Genesis when it speaks of the Flood of Noah. This section takes up over half of the book's total content and the nature of the topic makes for some redundancies, but far less than you would believe.

Finally, Part Three draws the reader's attention to a certain clay tablet which makes nonsense of the modernist claim that the Flood account found in Genesis is modelled on or derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh or an other proposed source. We call it here the Genesis Flood Tablet.

The Authenticity of the Book of Genesis
is well-written and resourced and provides an excellent balance of being both scholarly and a reasonably easy read. There are very few issues with the book. Part One was fascinating but details were slim in some of the early chapters. The cover art is appropriate but the design is rather average. Several pictures are included but I would've loved to see more of them. Overall, I highly recommend this book. It presents a formidable amount of evidence for the case that Genesis is both ancient truth and literal history.

9/10
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#25
For example: the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh was made up of many unrelated stories told on 12 different tablets, and many, many, many years later, edited into one narrative. As such, it took existing stories from the Mesopotamian region and also created new ones. The earliest tablets from the Epic are old, yes, but the Flood tablet (the 11th) is relatively recent by comparison (the 7th Century BC). And yes, the Flood fragment from Nippur that agrees with Genesis is dated as being from around 2000BC and it was written in Semitic-Babylonian. So it's much older than the Gilgamesh Flood tablet. But really, check out The Authenticity of the Book of Genesis by Bill Cooper. If that book doesn't convince you, I don't know what will.
 

Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
1,138
180
63
#26
Seriously. Go read that book I told you to. I didn't tell you to do so because it's a waste of time and because it doesn't contain anything of value. Nor did I recommend the book because it doesn't have any evidence for the Great Flood of the Bible being the original account and all others being either corruptions or fanciful storytelling adapted from the Genesis account by Noah or his sons.
I believe that all of the accounts of the flood are derived from the Biblical account and in fact the same story--nobody stole the story from anybody. The story was told before the Tower of Babel, then after God scattered the people by giving them different languages the story was retold among the different groups of people. The names of Noah and his sons were probably changed and given new names that would be commonly found in their culture.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#27
I believe that all of the accounts of the flood are derived from the Biblical account and in fact the same story--nobody stole the story from anybody. The story was told before the Tower of Babel, then after God scattered the people by giving them different languages the story was retold among the different groups of people. The names of Noah and his sons were probably changed and given new names that would be commonly found in their culture.
Yes, you're right. No-one stole the story but many cultures definitely corrupted it, either due to a desire to forget about the real God or because they had to fill in the gaps in their knowledge after Babel with some relevant cultural details and or more 'exciting' storytelling.
 
W

watty

Guest
#28
Anyone wanna actually deal with the scholarly evidence?
We know today the world is much older than we previously thought. Through DNA and scientific technology we are able to get dates of fossils. The earth according to science is approximately 4.5 billion years old and the universe 13 billion years old. The oldest human fossil found is called Broken Hill and is dated to be around 200,000 to 300,000 years old.
Evolution in no way proves there is no God. When I was in college in a science class my professor gave us an assignment to write an essay about the big bang theory and evolution and he ask everyone to drop their belief in God while researching and writing this paper. I refused to drop my belief in God and let him know that. Needless to say we had much discussion as to why I would not follow his instructions. I told him that I do not drop my belief in God for a millisecond, and not even for a A in grade. All of my classmates were eager to fellow the professors instructions. I was most disappointed to see the Christians drop their belief in God at a mans instruction. Then that was 5 years ago and my classmates were in their twenties and I was 49 years old. The basis of my paper stated that if the big bang theory took place it was at the instruction and plan of God. I still got an A on my paper. The Bible is a book of history and prediction. The Bible has a long history of being altered in words. The oldest written New Testament Bible found to date proves just how much the Bible has evolved itself. The original and the modern are quite different in content. I believe there is still enough in the modern day Bible to lead us to Jesus, which we will then be given the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a direct connect to God and is not altered by man. Man right now is trying to copy the Holy Spirit with micro chip implants, hypnosis, and brain washing techniques. Technology will never replace God as a simple prayer breaks the connection and control of technology. I believe God revealed himself to the first man he created and that was not Adam. Click on the underlined links below for more information.



First early human fossil found in Africa makes debut.
First early human fossil found in Africa makes debut

How old is the earth?
How old is the earth? - creation.com

How Old Is The Earth?
How Old Is The Earth?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
T

Tintin

Guest
#29
Ok, since you've read the book and are familiar with it - How does Cooper explain the parallels between the Genesis account and the Babylonian Enuma Elish creation account?
Cooper has some really good information on the Babylonian Enuma Elish creation account.
Here's a little summary of the book.
Genesis confirmed in clay - creation.com

If you're lucky, Amazon may have a preview of the relevant chapter or two.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#30
We know today the world is much older than we previously thought. Through DNA and scientific technology we are able to get dates of fossils. The earth according to science is approximately 4.5 billion years old and the universe 13 billion years old. The oldest human fossil found is called Broken Hill and is dated to be around 200,000 to 300,000 years old.
Evolution in no way proves there is no God. When I was in college in a science class my professor gave us an assignment to write an essay about the big bang theory and evolution and he ask everyone to drop their belief in God while researching and writing this paper. I refused to drop my belief in God and let him know that. Needless to say we had much discussion as to why I would not follow his instructions. I told him that I do not drop my belief in God for a millisecond, and not even for a A in grade. All of my classmates were eager to fellow the professors instructions. I was most disappointed to see the Christians drop their belief in God at a mans instruction. Then that was 5 years ago and my classmates were in their twenties and I was 49 years old. The basis of my paper stated that if the big bang theory took place it was at the instruction and plan of God. I still got an A on my paper. The Bible is a book of history and prediction. The Bible has a long history of being altered in words. The oldest written New Testament Bible found to date proves just how much the Bible has evolved itself. The original and the modern are quite different in content. I believe there is still enough in the modern day Bible to lead us to Jesus, which we will then be given the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a direct connect to God and is not altered by man. Man right now is trying to copy the Holy Spirit with micro chip implants, hypnosis, and brain washing techniques. Technology will never replace God as a simple prayer breaks the connection and control of technology.



First early human fossil found in Africa makes debut.
First early human fossil found in Africa makes debut

How old is the earth?
How old is the earth? - creation.com

How Old Is The Earth?
How Old Is The Earth?
Sorry, evolution and the Christian God of the Bible aren't compatible. Have you heard the kind of storytelling theistic evolutionists (many of whom are Christians) have to do to make it sound half-way reasonable? It's really embarrassing!
 
C

Celsus

Guest
#31
If Bill Cooper were an actual authority on the matter I would expect to find his literature
in actual academic journals. However, all the info I can find on him is from organizations
aligned with creationism. Sorry, but his publications don't meet the threshold of actual
scholarly research.
 
W

watty

Guest
#33
Sorry, evolution and the Christian God of the Bible aren't compatible. Have you heard the kind of storytelling theistic evolutionists (many of whom are Christians) have to do to make it sound half-way reasonable? It's really embarrassing!
When I use the word evolution I am not suggesting human evolved from monkeys. Evolve as in progress. We have evolved from working the farmland by hand to using machinery. Words have more than 1 meaning. Airplanes are a evolutionary invention for example. I should have explained it better.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#34
So God first revealed himself to Adam then later when polytheism was rampant He decided to show back up and reveal himself to a bunch of cattle herders?
Actually it was shepherds, but not just shepherds but to all Israel attesting Himself with many signs and miracles...the most notable was His foretold physical resurrection from the dead after three days.
If you want to disprove the Christian faith, go after the resurrection. Many have tried...none succeeded. Some have even become believers in the attempt to discredit it.
 
C

Celsus

Guest
#35
Actually it was shepherds, but not just shepherds but to all Israel attesting Himself with many signs and miracles...
The earliest evidence we have of Yahweh, the God of the Bible, is from the Shasu and they
were "cattle nomads"

"Shasu (from Egyptian Š[SUP]3[/SUP]sw, probably pronounced Shasw[SUP]e[/SUP][SUP][1][/SUP]) were Semitic-speaking cattle nomads in the Levant from the late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age or Third Intermediate Period of Egypt. They were organized in clans under a tribal chieftain, and were described as brigands active from the Jezreel Valley to Ashkelon and the Sinai."
Shasu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the most notable was His foretold physical resurrection from the dead after three days.
If you want to disprove the Christian faith, go after the resurrection. Many have tried...none succeeded. Some have even become believers in the attempt to discredit it.
I think you would agree that if the roots of the tree are false then everything that
grows/develops afterward is necessarily false as well. Yahweh was originally
a warrior-storm god so what sets him apart from the other deities that were
worshipped in the Ancient Near East?


"Even though the theophany texts depict
Yahweh primarily as a warrior storm-god,
there are elements in their description
which seem to assume that Yahweh is a
solar deity." Pg. 917 DDD

Screen shot 2014-09-20 at 4.24.57 PM.jpg
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#36
Celsus, is this an attempt to try to convince us God is not real?
 
C

Celsus

Guest
#37
Celsus, is this an attempt to try to convince us God is not real?
No. I'm just trying to figure out why the one true God has characteristics of false deities such as
El and Baal.

Consider the following ways in which the character of Yahweh appears to be nothing more than a watered down version of his predecessors in the Promised Land (cf. Day 2000:13-41, 68-90).
Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (The Library of Hebrew Bible/Old Testament Studies): John Day: 9780826468307: Amazon.com: Books

"The original God of Israel was El."The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel - Mark S. Smith - Google Books

a) Parallels between Yahweh and El

• There is no explicit and direct polemic in the Old Testament against the god El (cf. also Smith 1990:30).

• The Patriarchs apparently worshipped a Canaanite deity called El (cf. Gen 12-36; Josh 24).

• The divinity referred to in the theophoric suffix in the name Israel is El (cf. Gen 32:33, 35:10).

• Yahweh is often referred to as El (with or without qualification) (cf. Gen 17:1, Deut 6:2, Job 3-31 and passim).

• Yahweh, like El, is called the "Bull" (not "mighty one") (of Jacob) (cf. Gen 49:24; Ps 132:5).

• Like El, Yahweh is described as being a creator, a shepherd and a kind and merciful father (cf. Ex 34:6; Ps 23; Hos 11:8-9).

• Like El, Yahweh is depicted as an aged anthropomorphic deity (cf. Dan 7:13).

• Like El, Yahweh has a divine council that surrounds his throne (cf. 1 Kgs 22:20-23; Isa 6:3; Jer 23:18; Ps 82:1, 89:5; Job 1:6).

• Yahweh, like El, is called the father of humanity (cf. Jer 3:19; Mal 2:10).

• Yahweh, like El, lives at the source of the rivers amid the cosmic flood (cf. Ps 47:5; Isa 33:21; Ezek 47:1; Joel 3:18; Zech 14:8).

• Yahweh, like El, is often depicted as dwelling in a tent (cf. Ps 15:1; 27:5; etc.).

• In actual historical pre-exilic Israelite religion, Yahweh, like El, was often
worshipped as the head of a pantheon with Asherah as his consort (cf. Smith 1990:32).

b) Parallels between the depictions of Yahweh and Baal

• Yahweh, like Baal, is depicted as a storm deity (cf.. Ex 19-20; 1 Kgs 18; Ps 29, Jer 14:22).

• Yahweh like Baal, has thunder as his voice (cf. Ex 19:19, 20:18, 24:12; Deut 5:21,33:2; Judg 5:4; Ps 18:13; 1 Sam 7:10; Isa 30:27; Am 1:2; Ps 29:3; Job 37:5; 38:34).

• Yahweh, like Baal, hurls the lightning as like a spear or shoots it like an arrow (cf. Ps 29:7; Job 37:12-13; 38:25; etc.).

• Yahweh, like Baal, is designated as a rider of the clouds (cf. Ps 18:13; Isa 19:1).

• Yahweh, like Baal, is depicted as a son of El (cf. Deut 32:8-9?; Job 1:6?).

• Yahweh, like Baal, defeated the serpent Leviathan (Ug. Lotan) (cf. Pss 74:14; 89:11; Job 26:12; Isa 27:1).

• Yahweh, like Baal, had a conflict with Yam (the sea) (cf. Ex 15:1-12; Pss 89:10, 104:7, 136:13; Job 38:10-11).

• Yahweh, like Baal, is sometimes depicted in the form of a bull/calf (cf. Gen
49:24; Ex 32:4; 1 Kgs 12:28).

• Yahweh, like Baal, is often referred to as Elyon, “Most High” (cf. Gen 14:18, Num 24:16).

• Yahweh, like Baal, has a divine cosmic mountain in the far north (Zaphon) (cf. Ps 48:3; Isa 14:13).

• Yahweh, like Baal, is depicted as victorious over Mot (death) and is designated “the living God” (cf. Isa 26:19; Sam-Kgs-passim; Ps 42:3; etc.).

• Yahweh, like Baal, is called "Lord" (Baal/Adon) (cf. 2 Sam 4:4; 1 Chron 8:33,34; 14:7 and OT passim).

These parallels do not exhaust the affinities between Yahweh and the Canaanite deities. The studies by Smith (1990), Keel & Uehlinger (1998), Van der Toorn (1999), Day (2000) and others also contain detailed discussions on allusions in Old Testament God-talk to other Canaanite divinities such as Resheph, the Rephaim, etc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,850
1,565
113
#38
"By the 14th century BC, before the cult of Yahweh had reached Israel, groups of Edomite and Midianities worshipped Yahweh as their god."
Shasu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The absence of references to a Syrian or Palestinian cult of Yahweh outside Israel suggests that the god does not belong to the traditional circle of West Semitic deities. The origins of his veneration must be sought elsewhere. A number of texts suggest that Yahweh was worshipped in southern Edom and Midian before his cult spread to Palestine. There are two Egyptian texts that mention Yahweh. In these texts from the 14th and 13th centuries BCE, Yahweh is neither connected with the Israelites, nor is his cult located in Palestine." Pg. 911 DDD
Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible DDD - Google Books
Maybe we should take a step back,, Göbekli Tepe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ,,or Gobekli Tepe - YouTube ,,,,,"remember" urfa is just about 30 miles from Haran where Abraham was from,,Lebon was also from here and from his decedents came Jethro,the father of the wife of Moses,,,,yet it is a pagan religion I understand,,,"get ye out of Ur",,,,
 
C

Celsus

Guest
#39
Maybe we should take a step back,, Göbekli Tepe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ,,or Gobekli Tepe - YouTube ,,,,,"remember" urfa is just about 30 miles from Haran where Abraham was from,,Lebon was also from here and from his decedents came Jethro,the father of the wife of Moses,,,,yet it is a pagan religion I understand,,,"get ye out of Ur",,,,
"By the 14th century BCE,
before the cult of Yahweh had reached
Israel, groups of Edomite and Midianite
nomads worshipped Yahweh as their god.
These data converge with a northern tradition,
found in a number of ancient theophany
texts, according to which Yahweh
came from Edom and Seir (Judg 5:4; note
the correction in Ps 68:8[7]). According to
the Blessing of Moses Yahweh came from
Sinai, "dawned from" Seir, and "shone
forth" from Mount Paran (Deut 33:2).
Elsewhere he is said to have come from
Ternan and Mount Paran (Hab 3:3). The
references to "Yahweh of Teman" in the
Kuntillet 'Ajrud inscriptions are extra-biblical
confirmation of the topographical connection
(M. WEINFELD, Kuntillet 'Ajrud
Inscriptions and Their Significance, SEL I
1984] ]21-130, esp. ]25, 126). All of these
places-Seir, Mt Paran, Teman, and Sinai are
in or near Edom."
Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible DDD - Google Books
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#40
Celsus

Wiki and google DDD. All writings of men who weren't there at the time.
Jesus was there at creation and testified to the veracity of the old testament.
The resurrection,seen by eyewitnessess, attested to his veracity and deity. You still have a problem til you can disprove His resurrection. ..
 
Last edited: