What does it mean to say salvation is not of yourself?

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Jan 19, 2013
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#61
I am curious as to why you would call that "nice" when he writes...

If there were something that men could do to participate in salvation multitudes would go to the ends of the earth to accomplish it.
That statement right there is a denial of "saved by grace THROUGH faith."
You are so locked into Skinski7ism, you can't see anything beyond it,

including the meaning of what notuptome said.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#62
There is no requirement that you have to respond to my posts, but I will continue to point out the error that is made in Eph 1:4 by anyone that makes it. Nowhere in the context of Eph 1:4 does it say God foreknew certain individuals to be saved unconditionally. The context shows that God foreknew certain traits, those traits being "in Him/Christ", "holy and without blame" and called "sons" and these traits only belong to those that are CONDITIONALLY in the group "Christian" and do not belong unconditionally to any individual outside this group.

Eph 1:1 Paul is writing to the "saints" at Ephesus, those that are "in Christ Jesus", ie, Paul is writing to CHRISTIANS and the "us" refers to that group Christian. You cannot provide a single NT example of an individual being a "saint" or "in Christ" who is OUTSIDE the group Christian.

[Calling me names will never prove the heresy known as Calvinism.]
For as the body is one, and hath many members and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member but many.
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling. But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body as it has pleased him.

It seems Christ looks at the members of his body as individuals . . . .

 
Jan 19, 2013
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#64
No such thing as 'human will', but yet, we can exercise will? What a Pandora's box.
The issue is not whether man has a will, for he does.

The issue is how free is his will?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#65
SeaBass said:
Men are taught, hear and learn the word of God, and it by that hearing men have faith. So the drawing is nothing magical or irresistible. The result of God drawing is "cometh unto Me" man of his free will comes to God.

God draws, we come.
Outstanding exegis!
Except for it contradicting Ro 8:7-8.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
#66
The issue is not whether man has a will, for he does.

The issue is how free is his will?
We absolutely have free will.
God did not make us as robots, nor does He force us to come to Him and Love Him.

Even after you have received the truth, the bible makes it clear that some will still refuse to accept the truth in Jesus. It even says that some will refuse the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
To many want to put us in a bible and say it is impossible for a believer to still do wrong, or walk away from the truth.
The bible speaks differently, and in the words of our Lord and the Apostles they all say many will fall away.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#67
We absolutely have free will.
God did not make us as robots, nor does He force us to come to Him and Love Him.

Even after you have received the truth, the bible makes it clear that some will still refuse to accept the truth in Jesus. It even says that some will refuse the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
To many want to put us in a bible and say it is impossible for a believer to still do wrong, or walk away from the truth.
The bible speaks differently, and in the words of our Lord and the Apostles they all say many will fall away.
In the light of Ro 8:7-8, is man's will totally free?
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#68
Originally Posted by SeaBass
Men are taught, hear and learn the word of God, and it by that hearing men have faith. So the drawing is nothing magical or irresistible. The result of God drawing is "cometh unto Me" man of his free will comes to God.

God draws, we come.
Originally Posted by jdbear

Outstanding exegis!
Originally Posted by Elin

Except for it contradicting Ro 8:7-8.
But yet: agrees to the following (to those who do not know, red letters mean that Jesus, your LORD , said it):

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Joh 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You referenced:

Rom 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.​


Then maybe we should die to the flesh and become alive to the Spirit, seeing that:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.​

Seeing that to be fleshly is death, but spiritual is life and peace:

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.​
 
May 14, 2014
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#69
Except for it contradicting Ro 8:7-8.
Being in the flesh is a state of mind. Throughout history, God has changed people's minds by sending prophets to them. Nineveh repented at Jonahs preaching. God caused us to repent by sending Jesus. We heard the gospel and repented.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#70
Here we have someone presenting 6 verses which show that we are active in our salvation:

"Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:40; "in doing this thou shalt both save thyself" 1 Tim 4:16; "work out your own salvation" Phil 2:12; "Seeing ye have purified your souls" 1 Pet 1:22; "let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit" 2 Cor 7:1; "Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts" James 4:8


Man obviously has a role in his own salvation therefore can save himself by fulfilling the role God has given him.
And here, we see someone saying that those verses are a doctrine from hell:

Doctrine from hell.
Originally Posted by SeaBass
Man obviously has a role in his own salvation therefore
can save himself by fulfilling the role God has given him.
Scripture presented vs. a person's opinion who deleted those verses in her reply!?!?!?!?!?

So then, by complying to what those Scriptures say, then, in some people's opinion, we are doing Satan's will.....

How do we save ourselves: by believing in Jesus and all which goes along with that. With that active belief, we are saved. Without that belief, we are dead.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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#71
Elin said:
jdbear said:
SeaBass said:
Men are taught, hear and learn the word of God, and it by that hearing men have faith. So the drawing is nothing magical or irresistible. The result of God drawing is "cometh unto Me"
man of his free will comes to God.


God draws, we come.
Outstanding exegis!
Except for it contradicting Ro 8:7-8, which only the power of God in rebirth can overcome.
But yet: agrees to the following (to those who do not know, red letters mean that Jesus, your LORD , said it):

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Which is no way contradicts the power of God at work, and not man doing it of his own ability.​
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#72
Being in the flesh is a state of mind. Throughout history, God has changed people's minds by sending prophets to them. Nineveh repented at Jonahs preaching.
God caused us to repent by sending Jesus. We heard the gospel and repented.
Agreed. . .it is not something we do on our own.
 
May 14, 2014
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#73
Agreed. . .it is not something we do on our own.
We respond on our own:

"...it pleased by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Co.1:21
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#74
Originally Posted by cfultz3

But yet: agrees to the following (to those who do not know, red letters mean that Jesus, your LORD , said it):
Originally Posted by Elin

Except for it contradicting Ro 8:7-8, which only the power of God in rebirth can overcome.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Originally Posted by jdbear

Outstanding exegis!
Originally Posted by SeaBass

Men are taught, hear and learn the word of God, and it by that hearing men have faith. So the drawing is nothing magical or irresistible. The result of God drawing is "cometh unto Me"
man of his free will comes to God.

God draws, we come.
To which you reply:
Which is no way contradicts the power of God at work, and not man doing it of his own ability.
By which statement fails to admit that those verses are part of Scripture and thus, true. At least give the impression of accepting all of Scripture, as though harmonizing.
 
May 14, 2014
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#75
God sends prophets to people who have no ability to repent. How ludicrous is that idea?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#76
I am curious as to why you would call that "nice" when he writes...
That statement right there is a denial of "saved by grace THROUGH faith."

Many will not see that because they think faith is merely "trust" and is therefore disconnected from any "doing." What they generally trust in is a provision which they think occurred on the cross, a provision which effect a legal transaction of their sin to Jesus and the righteousness of Jesus to then. In other words they are trusting in a positional transaction which cloaks their actual manifest state.

We do participate in salvation. We have to work together with God lest we receive the grace of God to no working effect.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

This is why Jesus taught...

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

If there is no doing then no house will be built upon the rock. God is the author of the salvation of those who obey Him because it is through obedience that grace is made effectual to the saving of the soul.

Is it that you do not understand this and therefore can say it is "nice" to claim that "we do not participate in our salvation" ?

I don't understand why you would "like" some of my posts where I clearly teach that we must work together with God.




2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Workers Together With Him - G4903 - sunergeō
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.
You view the world through works colored glasses.

We are saved by grace. Works frustrate grace. It is an outright insult to God for man to claim any cooperation in his salvation. Scripture does tell us that we are created to do good works because we are saved but we do not work to be or stay saved. It pleased God to save those who believed. If it pleases God then leave it alone. My salvation causes my works but my works do not cause my salvation.

Any faith I have I have received from God. Faith created by hearing the word of God and applied to my heart by the direct action of the Holy Spirit. All three persons of the Godhead working in concert to save me from all my sin.

Time to trade in the works colored glasses fashioned by men and view the world with grace colored glasses fashioned by God Himself.

The glory is all His and not mine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
May 14, 2014
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#77


Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Mk.11:20

Jesus wont give people the ability to repent...and then chastises people for not repenting??? Hello...is anybody home?
 
May 14, 2014
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#78
.... It is an outright insult to God for man to claim any cooperation in his salvation....
For the cause of Christ
Roger
This is the most disgusting, vile, contemptible belief toward God that has ever existed on earth.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#79
Here we have someone presenting 6 verses which show that we are active in our salvation:

"Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:40;
Repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Spirit is not saving oneself.

Repentance is a gift (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31).
The Holy Spirit is a gift
(Ac 2:38).
Baptism does not save, any more than circumcision saved in the OT.
Both baptism and circumcision can be observed in counterfeit faith.
Only true faith through the Holy Spirit saves.

in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and your hearers" 1 Tim 4:16;
Yes, diligence and perseverance of believers in the faith through the power of the Holy Spirit show
that one is truly saved.
Habitual failure in either manifests a counterfeit faith, which does not save.

And Christians can be God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others.

let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit" 2 Cor 7:1;
Seeing ye have purified your souls" 1 Pet 1:22
Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts" James 4:8
Yes, "obeying the truth" through the power of the Holy Spirit cleanses and purifies the souls of believers.

None of these Scriptures indicate that we "save ourselves."
All are performed in the power of the Holy Spirit,
or they would never be performed at all.
We have nothing about which to boast.

And here, we see someone saying that those verses are a doctrine from hell:

Elin said:
SeaBass said:
Man obviously has a role in his own salvation therefore
can save himself by fulfilling the role God has given him.
Doctrine from hell.
Scripture presented vs. a person's opinion who deleted those verses in her reply!?!?!?!?!?
"Scripture presented" does not support your heresy.

So then, by complying to what those Scriptures say, then, in some people's opinion,
we are doing Satan's will.....

How do we save ourselves: by believing in Jesus and all which goes along with that.
With that active belief, we are saved. Without that belief, we are dead.
Faith is a gift, it is not of your own power (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).
You do not "save yourself" by a gift of faith.

Obedience is by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Y
ou do not "save yourself" in such obedience.

Righteousness to salvation in this doctrine is by one's own power
to obey God's commands (Php 3:9),
which makes you an enemy of the cross (Ph 3:18),
for if we have the power to obey to salvation, then we don't need Christ.

This heresy is too egregious to take seriously anyone who espouses it.
 
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May 14, 2014
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#80
Even so it is not the will of your Fatherwhich is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. Mt.18:14

Is there anyone here who doesn't understand the idea that after hearing the gospel, people decide whether they are going to believe it or not?
 
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