How dwells the love?

[Yet]

1John 3:17. My take: But what pastor has this worlds goods, and sees the poor, the struggling, and the widow in need, and shuts down any compassion for them by forcing them to pay tithes and offerings, how then can the love of God be in him?

True religion and undefiled is to care for the widows. James 1:27

 

[The_highwayman]

1John 3:17. My take: But what pastor has this worlds goods, and sees the poor, the struggling, and the widow in need, and shuts down any compassion for them by forcing them to pay tithes and offerings, how then can the love of God be in him?

True religion and undefiled is to care for the widows. James 1:27

COuple of things here brother.

1Tim 5.16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

1 Tim 5.17-18 says
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

what say you?

 

[Yet]

How long will the poor be expected to make bricks without straw?
How long will we tell them to 'be filled, be warmed, be gone'?
How long will we allow the Pharisees to rob the widow of her 2 mites?
How long will we allow the church leaders to devour widow's houses?

Rob not the poor because he is poor. Neither oppress the afflicted in the gate.
For The Lord will plead their cause and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them. Proverbs 22:22-23
Whoso stops his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry but shall not be heard. Proverbs 21:12


He that oppresses the poor to increase his riches..........shall surely come to want. Proverbs 22:16
The getting of treasures by a lying tongue(twisting scripture) is vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death. Proverbs 21:6
He that oppresses the poor, reproaches his Maker....Proverbs 14:31

Now to cap: whosoever despises the word (of God) shall be destroyed. Proverbs 13:13
and: Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuses instruction...Proverbs 13:18
.....he that hates instruction is brutish. Proverbs 12:1

 

[The_highwayman]

How long will the poor be expected to make bricks without straw?
How long will we tell them to 'be filled, be warmed, be gone'?
How long will we allow the Pharisees to rob the widow of her 2 mites?
How long will we allow the church leaders to devour widow's houses?

Rob not the poor because he is poor. Neither oppress the afflicted in the gate.
For The Lord will plead their cause and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them. Proverbs 22:22-23
Whoso stops his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry but shall not be heard. Proverbs 21:12


He that oppresses the poor to increase his riches..........shall surely come to want. Proverbs 22:16
The getting of treasures by a lying tongue(twisting scripture) is vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death. Proverbs 21:6
He that oppresses the poor, reproaches his Maker....Proverbs 14:31

Now to cap: whosoever despises the word (of God) shall be destroyed. Proverbs 13:13
and: Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuses instruction...Proverbs 13:18
.....he that hates instruction is brutish. Proverbs 12:1

How does this tie into pastors? I know you really dislike traditional church with a pastor at the head of the church, but the verses you use here do not help your cause.

 

[Allin]

Yet, of the five ministries mentioned in Eph. 4:11, pastors probably tend more toward compromise than the rest because of the nature of the call (to tend, watch over, protect, feed, and care for). Prophets are last to compromise, therefore, pastors and prophetic people always butt heads. Unfortunately, pastors tend to eject prophetic people from churches which causes them a lot of hurt. I think in issues of money and ministry, when a pastor is compromising in several areas, he will probably be compromising there too. In any case, if a pastor can't stand a prophet or prophetic people, he has judged his own self as living in sin (prophetic people are only a thorn to people who love to live in sin and to no one else). A pastor cannot dislike a prophetic person (it doesn't matter what excuse he gives) unless he is living in sin or/and compromise. However, if the pastor causes harm, then it is up to the prophetic person to not get bitter or vengeful and so be on the same level of sin and error as the pastor.

Pastors tend to be stiff-necked and resistant to the Holy Spirit because they naturally want to own the church or people under them. God dislikes this, and prophetic people are the first to be aware of how He feels about it. This makes pastors and prophets butt heads. I have been sorely disappointed in the inferior place that pastors tend to place themselves in by constantly fighting against the Holy Spirit in order to maintain a church building, keep control over people (at least through their position, not necessarily by dominion), and pay their bills. They are often full-grown black Angus or Brahman bulls: if you try to move (change) them on your own, you can forget it. Pastors are supposed to be pliable and not bull-headed. Their tendency to be beggars or dependent on their congregations or followers places them on the underside of the standard.

I was once in a church where the pastor, who told me he was an apostle (he dreamed a dream), called the prophetic people up on stage and honored them before the people. Looking at them, I could see that they'd been battered and wounded and that they were due honor long before that day. Unfortunately, this pastor was definitely living in sin and compromise but tried to lord his authority, saying he was an apostle and therefore over the prophets (which is not biblical). But while pastors tend to resist the Holy Spirit and His selflessness (which prophetic people tend to display a great deal), prophets have to guard against bitterness and anger at such a stiff-necked breed. It makes no sense to be bitter at a bull for being too heavy to move on your own. Let God do it, and keep moving till you find an inn with room in it.

 

[Revelator7]

Yet, of the five ministries mentioned in Eph. 4:11, pastors probably tend more toward compromise than the rest because of the nature of the call (to tend, watch over, protect, feed, and care for). Prophets are last to compromise, therefore, pastors and prophetic people always butt heads. Unfortunately, pastors tend to eject prophetic people from churches which causes them a lot of hurt. I think in issues of money and ministry, when a pastor is compromising in several areas, he will probably be compromising there too. In any case, if a pastor can't stand a prophet or prophetic people, he has judged his own self as living in sin (prophetic people are only a thorn to people who love to live in sin and to no one else). A pastor cannot dislike a prophetic person (it doesn't matter what excuse he gives) unless he is living in sin or/and compromise. However, if the pastor causes harm, then it is up to the prophetic person to not get bitter or vengeful and so be on the same level of sin and error as the pastor.

Pastors tend to be stiff-necked and resistant to the Holy Spirit because they naturally want to own the church or people under them. God dislikes this, and prophetic people are the first to be aware of how He feels about it. This makes pastors and prophets butt heads. I have been sorely disappointed in the inferior place that pastors tend to place themselves in by constantly fighting against the Holy Spirit in order to maintain a church building, keep control over people (at least through their position, not necessarily by dominion), and pay their bills. They are often full-grown black Angus or Brahman bulls: if you try to move (change) them on your own, you can forget it. Pastors are supposed to be pliable and not bull-headed. Their tendency to be beggars or dependent on their congregations or followers places them on the underside of the standard.

I was once in a church where the pastor, who told me he was an apostle (he dreamed a dream), called the prophetic people up on stage and honored them before the people. Looking at them, I could see that they'd been battered and wounded and that they were due honor long before that day. Unfortunately, this pastor was definitely living in sin and compromise but tried to lord his authority, saying he was an apostle and therefore over the prophets (which is not biblical). But while pastors tend to resist the Holy Spirit and His selflessness (which prophetic people tend to display a great deal), prophets have to guard against bitterness and anger at such a stiff-necked breed. It makes no sense to be bitter at a bull for being too heavy to move on your own. Let God do it, and keep moving till you find an inn with room in it.

Carnal minded pastors have the biggest egos and are the most opinionated. Many of them went to seminary and feel entitled by their schooling and "credintials" as the wiser ones of the flock. They think they know it all and are the main authoritarian prospect of the congregation. Seminaries program these indidivuals and create clones. Man has to feel "ordained' by another man/school. In the early church there was no peices of paper that gave such power to the office of the pastor. There was only agreement by the Spirit of who was who in the Lord. The office of pastor has been elevated to the top of pyramid, but by who or what? Church is just another name for business. I see billboards for churches. Nothing but a strategic marketing ploy. The next elevated role is the evagnelist. But not just any witness for Christ, but the Televangelist. Where's the apostle? Where's the prophet? Where's the teacher? Where's an apostles salary? Where's the common paycheck for the prophet? We are running God's ekklesia into the ground. There's no need for money in the church. If you have a building to pay for then yes, there will be a need. But the early church had a place to meet without money. Tithes and offerings go to the building and the pastors "visions". And where is the dreams and visions for the congregation? they are all led one by one to follow after their pastors opinionated vision, which he calls, was of the holy spirit. How could there be 10 year, 20 year, 40 years visions when we aren't to boast about tomorrow? Boasting about tomorrow is sin. so how do we change everything? We need a different kind of revival! I know that when men of God come into agreement with the Word without going beyond what is written, and if their motives are pure, the signs wonders and miracles will back them up and the people will be drawn to them coming from every kind of denomination and ministry.

 

[Allin]

Yet, I forgot to add that it's also up to prophetic people to know that just because they tend to hear God more readily than others (and much more readily than pastors), they shouldn't think that they are on a higher pedestal or are more important/righteous or that they can give a message in any way or that the person to whom they give the message is obligated to receive it. I mentioned more of a pastor's pitfalls in the last post and wanted to mention some of the prophet's or prophetic person's in this one. Everyone is to submit to each other: if pastors refuse to climb off their platforms of importance to submit to prophetic people, then prophetic people must climb off their platforms of righteousness to submit to the pastor or leave the church peacefully/quietly.

 

[Allin]

Carnal minded pastors have the biggest egos and are the most opinionated. Many of them went to seminary and feel entitled by their schooling and "credintials" as the wiser ones of the flock. They think they know it all and are the main authoritarian prospect of the congregation. Seminaries program these indidivuals and create clones. Man has to feel "ordained' by another man/school. In the early church there was no peices of paper that gave such power to the office of the pastor. There was only agreement by the Spirit of who was who in the Lord. The office of pastor has been elevated to the top of pyramid, but by who or what? Church is just another name for business. I see billboards for churches. Nothing but a strategic marketing ploy. The next elevated role is the evagnelist. But not just any witness for Christ, but the Televangelist. Where's the apostle? Where's the prophet? Where's the teacher? Where's an apostles salary? Where's the common paycheck for the prophet? We are running God's ekklesia into the ground. There's no need for money in the church. If you have a building to pay for then yes, there will be a need. But the early church had a place to meet without money. Tithes and offerings go to the building and the pastors "visions". And where is the dreams and visions for the congregation? they are all led one by one to follow after their pastors opinionated vision, which he calls, was of the holy spirit. How could there be 10 year, 20 year, 40 years visions when we aren't to boast about tomorrow? Boasting about tomorrow is sin. so how do we change everything? We need a different kind of revival! I know that when men of God come into agreement with the Word without going beyond what is written, and if their motives are pure, the signs wonders and miracles will back them up and the people will be drawn to them coming from every kind of denomination and ministry.

What you presented is true. We are currently in that middle place between 'Eli ministers' and 'Samuel ministers'. What are they? Elis are full of compromise and support and cover for-- rather than rebuke-- the sins of their fellow ministers (as Eli did with his sons and as we saw with Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley 'his spiritual son', etc.) while Samuels take a stand for righteousness to the extent that they not only rebuke the sins of fellow ministers but also the sins of ministers above them (and who does that today?). Here is the passage-- the middle place in time between compromising and righteous ministers:

Now the boy Samuel ministered to the Lord before Eli. And the word of the Lord was rare in those days; there was no widespread revelation (vision). And it came to pass at that time, while Eli was lying down in his place, and when his eyes had begun to grow dim that he could not see (no vision), and before the lamp of God went out (God's presence departing) in the tabernacle of the Lord where the Ark of God was, and while Samuel was lying down, that the Lord called Samuel. And he said, 'Here I am'" (1Sam. 3:1-4).

We are in that very place before the changing of the guard when revival (not evil spirit-manifested ones such as Bentley produced but true ones from God) and reformation await on the shoulders of Samuel ministers (obedient leaders). As far as the reprehensible and stubborn pride and territorial mindset of pastors, this is what the Lord says now about such people:

"Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch" (Matt. 15:13-14).

Both they and those who love to follow them will end up in the same disaster (guaranteed). They are wasting their followers' time; don't let them waste yours.

 

[Revelator7]

Tell me more about Rick Joyner

 

[Yet]

Jesus cleared the temple, as we know. Angry? You bet. Judging the lot? You bet. Disgusted with the 'devouring of the poor? Oh, don't you know it. Holy Spirit empowered? Absolutely.
If we have a log or 2 in our own eyes, I agree. We have no right to speak. I'm talking career sins. But otherwise, somebody somewhere better start sounding the alarm. We r commanded to exhort and even rebuke where gross error is lodged.

 

[loveme1]

Compassion is a wonderful gift of the Spirit.

 

[Yet]

What do u mean Loveme. Was that a rebuke to anyone who rebukes. I've got so much compassion for my grand daughter that I allow her to keep putting her hand on a hot oven. I mean if I told her sternly to stop that wouldn't be love would it?
Now if I misinterpreted your meaning, please correct me and I'll apologize.

 

[Yet]

One more thing. I didn't just bust outta the gate, guns blazing the next day after I was saved. Kept my mouth shut about this stuff for about 27 years thinking something was desperately wrong with me. Of course I had issues....but so does Christendom. A lot of rejection, pain, and loneliness through solid rock....no room for pride...all squeezed out in the crucible of afflictions.

Perfect? Nope. But I get the arrogant thing. I teach on it all day long. Mine has been more about 'poor little ole me'. Just as bad as ego. God must hammer away on the anvil till we are emptied out. If you fear heights, He'll stick you on top of a ten story building and say 'with My help....get over it'. Not a fun process, but needful. But somewhere along the line we'd better start speaking to error.

 

[oldthennew]

we have all known some good shepherds and some wolves.
here Is what our Father says to the wolves,

Isaiah 56:10-12.
His watchmen are blind, they are all ignorant; they are all dumb dogs,
they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
Yes, they are greedy dogs which never have enough.
And they are shepherds who cannot understand;
they all look to their own way, every one for his own gain,
from his own territory.
Come, "one says, "I will bring wine, and we will fill ourselves with intoxicating drink;
Tomorrow will be as today, and much more abundant."

this is just as true today, as it was when it was written.
turn on your TV, and bear witness.

 

[Allin]

Tell me more about Rick Joyner

I think it's fair to give you only what I know-- some of the visible and some of the invisible fruits that say that Joyner is a minister working for the enemy rather than one serving God. (He is working with an undercover group of people to basically destroy Christianity and the United States... and unfortunately, the world too.) Before thinking it's not believable, check out the fruits-- visible (observable) first, then the invisible (where the Spirit knows and reveals to us who is who):

1. Rick Joyner is a member of the Knights of Malta which is a secret society tied to the Catholic church. They are among other societies and groups working to bring in an Anti-Christ world order of the ages; much of their work is done by purposely infiltrating all Christian churches and groups. Joyner is a conscious member of this. From within, such people do many things to retard Christianity so that it is powerless, but here is one foundational thing they do: they preempt the five-fold ministries, especially the two that pose satan the greatest threat: the apostolic and prophetic ministries. (This is why about 99% of the apostolic-prophetic movements today are powerful only in deceiving people; otherwise, they rarely if ever bring God or Jesus to anyone.)

In making the apostolic and prophetic (and the supernatural and miraculous) look horrible and fake, these infiltrators make them a bad taste in people's mouths (like the prophetic used to turn me totally off) so that Christians reject wholesale the two ministries on which alone the Lord will 're-build' His Church in these end times: apostles and prophets. (Isa. 58:12, 61:4, 1Cor. 3:9-13.). Matt. 7:15-20 can be hard to understand, because Jesus is talking about two types of fruits there: the visible and invisible. In the below video, Joyner's visible fruits show as bad as he 'prays' for a military coup/takeover over Obama. Watch closely, but listen even closer (you may want to research General Jerry Boykin):

[video=youtube;eSBXR_PxPqM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSBXR_PxPqM[/video]

2. Rick Joyner claimed in the past he was a prophet and now claims he is an apostle. He did not fit the Bible's signs and traits of a prophet and does not fit them for an apostle. The Bible is clear that if someone claims something and does not fit the signs, traits, or fruits, then that person is a liar. By the Bible's standards, Joyner is not even standing in 'the congregation of the Saints' not to mention being any type of God-certified minister. These are invisible fruits (or the unseen standard) where the above was about the visible fruits/standard.

These infiltrators of Christianity start in the bigger or/and more successful churches, manipulating the agenda of the church till it's not about God or Jesus anymore. Ministers generally don't know to watch for this kind of thing, but most churches you visit you go in, 'have an experience', then come out the same not only because people may not want to change but because infiltration is and has been in play for a very long time to preempt the coming of God's Kingdom on earth as in Heaven. satan is afraid of the genuine apostolic and prophetic ministers (afraid afraid, like in real life). Why? Because they are the ones that show him up; they make it clear who he really is, how much power he really has, and how much authority he doesn't have. The Bible says Jesus made a show of satan when He triumphed through the Cross and says in Eph. 1 that He was lifted far above all principality. As long as the apostolic and prophetic ministries are not functioning or pushed out the churches (and are replaced with false ministries), satan knows that no one will really ever know by experience that he is not as big as he appeared.

Goliath was really big until someone stepped up who wasn't afraid and who exposed that God was stronger. This is what the apostolic and prophetic ministry does to satan (it shows him to the Church and world as he really is, and he doesn't want the shame of being 'the weak one who had sway over the whole world'); and this is why satan resists them through infiltration of churches to teach one group to disbelieve in these ministries and to have the other group make these ministries look so bad that anyone with a lick of sense would want nothing to do with them. That is what is at work now in Christian churches, groups, sites, ministries, businesses, etc.; and it explains the presence among Christians of 'goosebumps and glory' but absence of 'Life and the Presence of God' in the churches.

 

[Allin]

Jesus cleared the temple, as we know. Angry? You bet. Judging the lot? You bet. Disgusted with the 'devouring of the poor? Oh, don't you know it. Holy Spirit empowered? Absolutely.
If we have a log or 2 in our own eyes, I agree. We have no right to speak. I'm talking career sins. But otherwise, somebody somewhere better start sounding the alarm. We r commanded to exhort and even rebuke where gross error is lodged.

Whatever one's job description as minister or Christian, the work is to be like Jesus, therefore, He must be the main example. The Bible shows that the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets. If you have a strong desire to rebuke and exhort in your prophetic spirit, it does mean that's how God feels about it... but it doesn't mean that He would do it just because He feels it. Therefore, even if you have righteous anger, it doesn't mean to exercise it, because your prophetic spirit is still subject to you and not you to it; instead, you're subject and to subject your spirit (and all your parts) to the Holy Spirit. Jesus was moved with compassion many times before He began ministry, but being moved doesn't justify acting as we see clearly in His case. What does the Bible say about Jesus in His prophetic spirit and walking in wisdom? Here's a really important one where Isaiah prophesied of Jesus:

"The Lord God has given Me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him who is weary. He wakens Me morning by morning; He wakens My ear to hear as the learned" (Isa. 50:4).

In that verse, God directs Jesus in everything; and Jesus, with His own spirit, submitted His spirit and all His parts to God. God gave Him the ability (the wisdom, learning) to know what to speak to each person, how to speak it, and when to speak it. God also woke Him as well as His hearing and ability to hear how to proceed. Jesus' spirit wanted to minister to all the people He came across; but He did only what God was leading Him to do. I believe that's the deepest level of consecration for any minister: he doesn't minister ahead of the Lord (as most today) nor even with the Lord (which is a real accomplishment in itself), but the Lord ministers through him (which always has 100% effect as when God ministered through Jesus).

 

[Yet]

Allin. We are in total disagreement. Even John warned of Diotrephes but I feel you lifting your heal against me, judging me. I'll not contend any further with you.

 

[oldthennew]

'the giving of correction & the taking of correction.'

we have learned through many mistakes that the giving of correction and the taking
has to be coupled with a gracious and humble heart/spirit.

even admitting to our own selves that we have committed or done something wrong
(thought-deed-motive) etc. - can be such a huge stumbling block for our growing
Spiritually. boy, this tributary that exists in the Body is a big-one, - we have to have a heart
that will at first, and foremost, admit that we are fallible and examine what harm
it is creating in our lives, whether, at home-at work-at church-at play-or, in this forum=(motive).

if we type/speak, we have to understand how our words will be received and whether
or not they will be Spiritually profitable or un-profitable.
if our words are full of antagonism and/or accusatory or coming from an egotistical
attitude, they will automatically produce non-receptive ears and resentment.

as we mature, we will learn that patience is key to productive correction,
that is, the door opens, and we have then been given permission from
up-above to open our mouths and speak the words that the hearers
mostly need for his/her improvement in their walk with their Father in Heaven.

as it is written, 'how good is a word spoken is due season.'

the degrees of correction vary widely, that is,
from the 'whip that Christ used to the very soft/gentle words, 'Martha, Martha'.

 

[Allin]

Allin. We are in total disagreement. Even John warned of Diotrephes but I feel you lifting your heal against me, judging me. I'll not contend any further with you.

John warned of Diotrephes, because John was an authority over him. I hope you find your peace in all of this. I'm still learning how to speak a word in season. God bless.

 

[JesusLives]

The love of God dwells in my heart. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, strength and your neighbor as yourself. Perfect love casts out all fear. God is Love. 1 Corinthians 13 I invite you to read it and apply it to your life.