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There is no greek nor Jew, slave or free, or male or female, for we are all One in Christ.
God has given the man the responsibility of leading the family. That means in order for a man to even have a wife, the man has to actually be able to provide her needs and the needs of their children. And women are then meant to take care of their husbands and their children. The whole being the leader of the family is a job that carries responsibility and accountability. You are judged when you misuse it.
Men and women have roles they play. Men came first, and woman came from man as a gift to man. But all of us are called Sons of Christ. And that word sons isnt a sexist term to show superiority of men, there is no daughter in Heaven. God is a He, the angels are he's, all of Heaven is without gender. She is an earthly term for humans assigned to the role of a woman on the earth. And I can garuntee you God loves woman just as much as He loves men. We are all His children. But yes we must carry out the roles given to us by our Father.
So do men have all authority over women to tell them what to do and how to act. Nope. Only God does. Women are only asked to let their husbands lead the family, and for them to support the family. It is merely a role that, when used right, is absolutely best for us. Women are to take care of a mans needs, and men are in every way equally charged with the exact same duty. Yes, you should always ask your wife for her input, God often talks through wives just as He does husbands
God has given the man the responsibility of leading the family. That means in order for a man to even have a wife, the man has to actually be able to provide her needs and the needs of their children. And women are then meant to take care of their husbands and their children. The whole being the leader of the family is a job that carries responsibility and accountability. You are judged when you misuse it.
Men and women have roles they play. Men came first, and woman came from man as a gift to man. But all of us are called Sons of Christ. And that word sons isnt a sexist term to show superiority of men, there is no daughter in Heaven. God is a He, the angels are he's, all of Heaven is without gender. She is an earthly term for humans assigned to the role of a woman on the earth. And I can garuntee you God loves woman just as much as He loves men. We are all His children. But yes we must carry out the roles given to us by our Father.
So do men have all authority over women to tell them what to do and how to act. Nope. Only God does. Women are only asked to let their husbands lead the family, and for them to support the family. It is merely a role that, when used right, is absolutely best for us. Women are to take care of a mans needs, and men are in every way equally charged with the exact same duty. Yes, you should always ask your wife for her input, God often talks through wives just as He does husbands
I think my comments are appropriate given beliefs in our culture. A lot of feminist's idea of equality includes this idea, "A woman can do anything as well as a man." But that isn't true, generally, when we are talking about things like carrying heavy backpacks. The marines were struggling a while back with whether to reduce the requirements for certain combat roles so women could actually pass the tests. So physical ability does have a lot to do with concepts of 'equality.'
God did make men and women different, and He ordained it so that the husband would be the head in the relationship. God knew what He was doing when He designed man and woman. It does make sense that we are designed to fit into certain roles.
God did make men and women different, and He ordained it so that the husband would be the head in the relationship. God knew what He was doing when He designed man and woman. It does make sense that we are designed to fit into certain roles.
No, that's a common misconception about feminists, probably due to the fact that most people get their idea of feminism from 14-year-old bloggers and tumblr. Would you listen to the semi-coherent rantings of a Christian teenager and assert that "a lot of" Christian theologians and experienced pastors have the exact same ideas as this teenager? Of course not, because that would be silly.
Forget what the tumblrites say. Feminism means equal political, social, and economic rights of the genders. That is all.
I don't follow God's rules because I simply don't agree with them. Before you say it, yes, I'm aware that I'm going to Hell. But that's my decision. If you want to follow traditional gender values, go for it. That's your decision. You see, as a feminist, I believe that we are all adults and should be able to make our own choices in life.
Forget what the tumblrites say. Feminism means equal political, social, and economic rights of the genders. That is all.
I don't follow God's rules because I simply don't agree with them. Before you say it, yes, I'm aware that I'm going to Hell. But that's my decision. If you want to follow traditional gender values, go for it. That's your decision. You see, as a feminist, I believe that we are all adults and should be able to make our own choices in life.
What is so wrong about the roles God created for women?
And also, I really hope you arent comforted by the idea of going to hell. And I definitely hope you dont have that romanticized idea of hell, where satan rules as some free thinker and its some kingdom of rebellion. It is eternal torment for both the demons and men who are sent there, and it is literally called a place of hopelessness, suffering Gods wrath.
I cannot see this cruel burden God put on women. To this day the only justification Ive seen for it is some women have married abusive men. What does this have to do with God? There are men who marry women who take advantage of the support their husbands give them. So because some women take advantage of the situation, I should refuse to ever provide for any woman I marry? The sins of men do not reflect God, its the entire reason that Christ died on the cross for us.
And also, I really hope you arent comforted by the idea of going to hell. And I definitely hope you dont have that romanticized idea of hell, where satan rules as some free thinker and its some kingdom of rebellion. It is eternal torment for both the demons and men who are sent there, and it is literally called a place of hopelessness, suffering Gods wrath.
I cannot see this cruel burden God put on women. To this day the only justification Ive seen for it is some women have married abusive men. What does this have to do with God? There are men who marry women who take advantage of the support their husbands give them. So because some women take advantage of the situation, I should refuse to ever provide for any woman I marry? The sins of men do not reflect God, its the entire reason that Christ died on the cross for us.
Because I don't want to.
Aside from my intense, personal hatred of them ...
They just don't work. We've had traditional Judeo-Christian gender roles since the beginning of Western civilization, and the relationship between the genders has never been even marginally acceptable. Even though we've made huge strides in gender relations in the past few decades, gendered violence is epidemic in most Western societies. So, no, it's not a case of a small minority of people who abuse the power.
Comparatively, gender egalitarian societies (what few that exist) do work. In such societies, domestic violence and rape are virtually unheard of.
You and I likely have a very different mentality. You might be perfectly okay with submitting to someone else and deferring to their authority in all things, even though it's inescapably obvious that they're wrong. But the mere thought of that physically pains me.
Aside from my intense, personal hatred of them ...
They just don't work. We've had traditional Judeo-Christian gender roles since the beginning of Western civilization, and the relationship between the genders has never been even marginally acceptable. Even though we've made huge strides in gender relations in the past few decades, gendered violence is epidemic in most Western societies. So, no, it's not a case of a small minority of people who abuse the power.
Comparatively, gender egalitarian societies (what few that exist) do work. In such societies, domestic violence and rape are virtually unheard of.
You and I likely have a very different mentality. You might be perfectly okay with submitting to someone else and deferring to their authority in all things, even though it's inescapably obvious that they're wrong. But the mere thought of that physically pains me.
LionEyes,
I totally get it! The way the church and the patriarchal system has hurt women is horrific! You are correct in almost every thing you have said.
What I do not agree with is the fact that you think you can disobey God. I understand the hurt you feel when you read those verses "wives submit to your husbands" and "women must be silent in church." I understand the questions you must have like, "Why did God give me a brain if I'm not supposed to use it?" and "Is my exsistance as a woman some cruel joke to God?" I know it hurts. I have asked those questions dozens of times myself.
A lot of those verses were written because of the times. God gave you a brain and he expects you to use it. God does not like violence against women or rape or even rape jokes. You don't have to be a quiet and submissive robot to be a good wife. You have a voice. There are plenty of women who are called "wise" in the Bible.
I have something for you to listen to: http://www.dianelangberg.com/work/MP3/On Being Female.mp3
Check that out and get back to me.
-JF
I totally get it! The way the church and the patriarchal system has hurt women is horrific! You are correct in almost every thing you have said.
What I do not agree with is the fact that you think you can disobey God. I understand the hurt you feel when you read those verses "wives submit to your husbands" and "women must be silent in church." I understand the questions you must have like, "Why did God give me a brain if I'm not supposed to use it?" and "Is my exsistance as a woman some cruel joke to God?" I know it hurts. I have asked those questions dozens of times myself.
A lot of those verses were written because of the times. God gave you a brain and he expects you to use it. God does not like violence against women or rape or even rape jokes. You don't have to be a quiet and submissive robot to be a good wife. You have a voice. There are plenty of women who are called "wise" in the Bible.
I have something for you to listen to: http://www.dianelangberg.com/work/MP3/On Being Female.mp3
Check that out and get back to me.
-JF
I get where you are coming from LionEyes. I am not in any way shape or form a submissive woman when I am treated unfairly, unjustly, or I firmly believe the question or decision at hand is wrong.
The problem is that without Jesus we are all under the curse of sin. There is no equality without Jesus, it is not possible, because without Jesus there is always sin, and we all know that sin includes many forms of abuse, violence, and slavery. However, once we have been forgiven and redeemed under the blood of Jesus and are clothed in righteousness, we are a part of the body of Jesus. Since we are a part of the body of Jesus, there is no male or female, young or old, college degree or illiterate. We are all One in Him, we are all equal. That is why the people who get hung up on the 'roles of gender authority' are still living under and in the mindset of the curse, not the freedom and NEW life that Jesus gave.
Let's take a short look at the verses that gets many upset:
Ephesians 5:21-31
Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. *Notice the lack of gender differentiation in that.* [SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her [SUP]26 [/SUP]to make her holy, cleansing[SUP][b][/SUP] her by the washing with water through the word, [SUP]27 [/SUP]and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. [SUP]28 [/SUP]In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [SUP]29 [/SUP]After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— [SUP]30 [/SUP]for we are members of his body. [SUP]31 [/SUP]“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
Countless times people skip over the second paragraph "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church". If anyone has any understanding of how much Jesus loves us, they would know how profound this is. There would be no problem for me, despite my combative nature, to submit to a husband who loves me the way Jesus does. He would be a man who would consider my opinion in all things, listen when I talk, understand and care when I'm not feeling well, make decisions together with me.... basically he would be that super sweet guy who wants to do everything for you because he loves you so much, he loves you the way Jesus loves you. In contrast, an abusive man who never listens to you does not love himself, so he is not capable of also loving and respecting you. This is clearly stated by scripture above.
So you can see, without Jesus, the discussion of equality is pointless. Without Jesus even trying to attain or have any form of fair or just love, equality, etc. is pointless. Without Jesus, a lot of things are pointless.
On a side note, understand that hell is not the final destination, merely a holding place. At the end of days all of the lost (those not already saved under the blood of Jesus, whether they be dead or alive) will stand before the Judgement seat. Only two ways to get into heaven: by your own merit or through Jesus, and you cannot get in through your own merit as we are all sinners. Those not saved will be cast into the lake of fire, along with the devil and fallen angels. So if not saved, your final destination would be the lake of fire. My understanding is that it is worse than hell, and I would not wish that on anyone. I will take the completely fulfilling and consuming love of Jesus any day over the lake of fire.
The problem is that without Jesus we are all under the curse of sin. There is no equality without Jesus, it is not possible, because without Jesus there is always sin, and we all know that sin includes many forms of abuse, violence, and slavery. However, once we have been forgiven and redeemed under the blood of Jesus and are clothed in righteousness, we are a part of the body of Jesus. Since we are a part of the body of Jesus, there is no male or female, young or old, college degree or illiterate. We are all One in Him, we are all equal. That is why the people who get hung up on the 'roles of gender authority' are still living under and in the mindset of the curse, not the freedom and NEW life that Jesus gave.
Let's take a short look at the verses that gets many upset:
Ephesians 5:21-31
Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. *Notice the lack of gender differentiation in that.* [SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her [SUP]26 [/SUP]to make her holy, cleansing[SUP][b][/SUP] her by the washing with water through the word, [SUP]27 [/SUP]and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. [SUP]28 [/SUP]In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [SUP]29 [/SUP]After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— [SUP]30 [/SUP]for we are members of his body. [SUP]31 [/SUP]“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
Countless times people skip over the second paragraph "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church". If anyone has any understanding of how much Jesus loves us, they would know how profound this is. There would be no problem for me, despite my combative nature, to submit to a husband who loves me the way Jesus does. He would be a man who would consider my opinion in all things, listen when I talk, understand and care when I'm not feeling well, make decisions together with me.... basically he would be that super sweet guy who wants to do everything for you because he loves you so much, he loves you the way Jesus loves you. In contrast, an abusive man who never listens to you does not love himself, so he is not capable of also loving and respecting you. This is clearly stated by scripture above.
So you can see, without Jesus, the discussion of equality is pointless. Without Jesus even trying to attain or have any form of fair or just love, equality, etc. is pointless. Without Jesus, a lot of things are pointless.
On a side note, understand that hell is not the final destination, merely a holding place. At the end of days all of the lost (those not already saved under the blood of Jesus, whether they be dead or alive) will stand before the Judgement seat. Only two ways to get into heaven: by your own merit or through Jesus, and you cannot get in through your own merit as we are all sinners. Those not saved will be cast into the lake of fire, along with the devil and fallen angels. So if not saved, your final destination would be the lake of fire. My understanding is that it is worse than hell, and I would not wish that on anyone. I will take the completely fulfilling and consuming love of Jesus any day over the lake of fire.
This still has nothing to do with God at all. You are talking about the earth, and God tells us He is bringing His vengence down on the earth. You are only taking anger that you have on evil and putting it all on God, who had nothing to do with it.
Those things you mention are not from God, but evil people with power of some sort. Also, I notice you are only considering what women go through in the earth, and not what humans go through. You know those young girls who are kidnapped in poor countries filled with violence? You know what happens to their brothers? They are either forced to join their armies, or murdered in front of their families. And though sexual violence is more prevelant in women, it does in fact happen to males, too. Their are young males who are in fact put into sex slavery. I have noticed that the people in todays world are always comparing the suffering of their people alone to everyone else. And they act as if they are the only people in the whole world that do. Every group of people in this world are persecuted, abused, taken advantaged of, murdered and tortured daily. The world is filled with suffering, and every group of people who have ever existed have experienced it in some way. Remember what Christ did? He did not fight. He did not take vengeance. He told us vengeance is for God to take, and that He was coming to take it. And when His persecuters came to Him He did not wage war, He did not do anything. He let them take Him, and He let them torture and kill Him. This is what God means when He says submit. He tells slaves to submit. He tells those being persecuted to endure. You are rewarded by Him when you do so with faith. It is God who will take vengeance on evil ones who hurt you. And this includes abusive husbands.
To this day I have found nothing wrong with Gods roles for women. It always is about the evil of the earth being put on God, when God tells us He is coming to stop the breath of the inhabitants of the earth. I believe those who blame God for these things dont even understand who God is.
I have a few questions:
1) if a woman is being abused by her husband should she stay in that situation or should she leave?
2) can you please explain what a woman's role is?
Also you talk about taking vengance. I have not seen anything in here about vengance. All I have seen is people agreeing that it is good for a woman to remove herself if she is in an abusive situation.
As a woman who has been abused I did what I could to remove myself from the situation. I eventually got out and I was angry for a long long time and I wanted to take vengance and I tried (that was wrong of me). My point is that I don't think God would be angry at someone for removing themselves from an abusive situation. I think what he does ask is that we live with the earthy injustice that they WILL get away with it in this lifetime but they will NOT get away with it when they face God. Not taking vengance after all is said and done is hard and it hurts knowing that these people have gotten away with it and I have to make peace with that.
1) if a woman is being abused by her husband should she stay in that situation or should she leave?
2) can you please explain what a woman's role is?
Also you talk about taking vengance. I have not seen anything in here about vengance. All I have seen is people agreeing that it is good for a woman to remove herself if she is in an abusive situation.
As a woman who has been abused I did what I could to remove myself from the situation. I eventually got out and I was angry for a long long time and I wanted to take vengance and I tried (that was wrong of me). My point is that I don't think God would be angry at someone for removing themselves from an abusive situation. I think what he does ask is that we live with the earthy injustice that they WILL get away with it in this lifetime but they will NOT get away with it when they face God. Not taking vengance after all is said and done is hard and it hurts knowing that these people have gotten away with it and I have to make peace with that.
Oh, dear. All of this for one comment.
Thank you to all who responded to me. I appreciate your concern for my soul. But if this particular conversation continues, maybe we should create a new thread so we don't derail this topic any further.
Thank you for the link. It was very interesting. And I'd agree that God doesn't like violence against anyone.
The teachings of the Bible were quite revolutionary for the culture of that time, but not for the time in general. There were societies that were much more gender equal than what the Bible depicted. Women Vikings, for instance, played a very important role in society and had more rights and privileges than those elsewhere. They were not merely seen as wise; they owned land, had legal rights, and had many responsibilities.
I don't think people skip over that part. I think a lot of people genuinely don't understand what love is. How many men and women believe that obsession, possessiveness, and borderline stalking equals love? How many people think that controlling someone "for their own good" is an appropriate expression of love? How many romance books and films teach this very thing (*cough* Twilight and it's more *ehem*"adult" counterpart)?
I would. Even if he's the nicest guy on the face of the planet, I cannot submit to someone I'm supposed to love. It feels wrong on a deep, personal level. Further, it doesn't feel like love. I just can't do it. I can't even entertain the thought without getting angry. I'd rather become a lonely spinster with a bunch of cats, none of which I like.
If God's laws do not improve society, what's the point of them? We have laws, principles, and norms to improve society or to at least keep it civilized. If large groups of people are either ignoring these laws, principles, or norms or abusing them for their own gain, they simply don't work.
No, I didn't. In fact, I chose the terms "gendered violence" and "gender relations" in order to include both men and women.
Of course you don't. If you did, you would be a nonChristian on the highway to Hell with me.
Thank you to all who responded to me. I appreciate your concern for my soul. But if this particular conversation continues, maybe we should create a new thread so we don't derail this topic any further.
Thank you for the link. It was very interesting. And I'd agree that God doesn't like violence against anyone.
The teachings of the Bible were quite revolutionary for the culture of that time, but not for the time in general. There were societies that were much more gender equal than what the Bible depicted. Women Vikings, for instance, played a very important role in society and had more rights and privileges than those elsewhere. They were not merely seen as wise; they owned land, had legal rights, and had many responsibilities.
I don't think people skip over that part. I think a lot of people genuinely don't understand what love is. How many men and women believe that obsession, possessiveness, and borderline stalking equals love? How many people think that controlling someone "for their own good" is an appropriate expression of love? How many romance books and films teach this very thing (*cough* Twilight and it's more *ehem*"adult" counterpart)?
I would. Even if he's the nicest guy on the face of the planet, I cannot submit to someone I'm supposed to love. It feels wrong on a deep, personal level. Further, it doesn't feel like love. I just can't do it. I can't even entertain the thought without getting angry. I'd rather become a lonely spinster with a bunch of cats, none of which I like.
If God's laws do not improve society, what's the point of them? We have laws, principles, and norms to improve society or to at least keep it civilized. If large groups of people are either ignoring these laws, principles, or norms or abusing them for their own gain, they simply don't work.
No, I didn't. In fact, I chose the terms "gendered violence" and "gender relations" in order to include both men and women.
Of course you don't. If you did, you would be a nonChristian on the highway to Hell with me.
I never said anything about women leaving their husbands. I was talking about people accusing God of evil because men sin. The evils of man have nothing to do with God. And I was talking about vengeance because God is bringing it down on the earth for its sins. It made the point that we are told to submit to our abusers, our persecutors, and even in the end times when the anti christ comes to kill you, let him kill you. It is Gods will that you submit to with faith in God, and this isnt just to women, this is for every human being who follows the path of Christ. If all your worried about is your body and earthly life, then you are living earthly.
As for whether or not God wants you to leave your husbands, Christ actually told us no one should ever be divorced. When he was killed He allowed it to happen. He didnt fight. He didnt try to get out of it. For some reason I cant copy paste, but there are tons of bible verses about submission. Ephesians 6:5, Colossions 4:1, 1Peter 2:18, and for wives- 1Peter 3:1-22,Ephesians 5:22-24, 1Peter 3:7, Ephesians 5:25, Colossians 3:19, 1 Timothy 2:12, Ephesians 5:33, one of my favorites- Proverbs 31:10-15
Keep in mind that submission is NOT all about women. All of us are to submit to God. When in slavery we are told to submit. When held captive we are told to let ourselves be captive, when to be killed we are even told to let ourselves be killed. Christ submitted to his captors and died for you, He asks you to do the same. Almost all of His deciples suffered His fate as well. They did it in faith.
All of men are put through hardships of all kinds. God tells you, He is going to put us through hardships. Read Isaiah 48: 9-11.
If we are to use Gods word to find out what to do, He tells us that we should let ourselves go as far as being killed with faith in Him. As for a woman leaving an abusive man, I dunno. I do not believe its Gods will. He also tells us that we should not remarry when we divorce, because we break our promise to Him.
I dont judge women who do, my mom left a very bad man to protect both her and her kids. Christ died to save us from our sins. But, if we are to use Gods teachings, his followers allowed horrible things to happen to them in order to serve God. He tells all, not just women, but everyone, to submit. It at least seems that those who endure suffering are held in greater honor by God.
As for whether or not God wants you to leave your husbands, Christ actually told us no one should ever be divorced. When he was killed He allowed it to happen. He didnt fight. He didnt try to get out of it. For some reason I cant copy paste, but there are tons of bible verses about submission. Ephesians 6:5, Colossions 4:1, 1Peter 2:18, and for wives- 1Peter 3:1-22,Ephesians 5:22-24, 1Peter 3:7, Ephesians 5:25, Colossians 3:19, 1 Timothy 2:12, Ephesians 5:33, one of my favorites- Proverbs 31:10-15
Keep in mind that submission is NOT all about women. All of us are to submit to God. When in slavery we are told to submit. When held captive we are told to let ourselves be captive, when to be killed we are even told to let ourselves be killed. Christ submitted to his captors and died for you, He asks you to do the same. Almost all of His deciples suffered His fate as well. They did it in faith.
All of men are put through hardships of all kinds. God tells you, He is going to put us through hardships. Read Isaiah 48: 9-11.
If we are to use Gods word to find out what to do, He tells us that we should let ourselves go as far as being killed with faith in Him. As for a woman leaving an abusive man, I dunno. I do not believe its Gods will. He also tells us that we should not remarry when we divorce, because we break our promise to Him.
I dont judge women who do, my mom left a very bad man to protect both her and her kids. Christ died to save us from our sins. But, if we are to use Gods teachings, his followers allowed horrible things to happen to them in order to serve God. He tells all, not just women, but everyone, to submit. It at least seems that those who endure suffering are held in greater honor by God.