A Rant. Advice Needed. And Lots of "Devine Intervention!"

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atwhatcost

Guest
#1
I got off the phone with my oldest brother. A family problem has come to a head. It's a whopper. He's not a believer, but even he said he's hoping for "divine intervention," so this is me asking my spiritual bros and sises for that.

Dad has had dementia for ten years now. He lives alone in a house on five acres of woods in the middle of nothing in particular but pretty scenery. He also has two cars.

See the problem? Yeah, that moment happened last month. A phone call to my husband from a cop at 10:30 PM on a Saturday night. (Hubby, as in he doesn't even have my family name, so that's not good that that was the only name Dad could come up with. Dad has six kids!) I took the call, once she (cop) figured out I'm Dad's daughter. Apparently Dad went to the senior's center to get his haircut (which they only do on Wednesdays), at 9 AM, got "a little lost," ended up in Philly for a few hours, (he's north of Philly/my city, so the only thing landing in Philly does when you're lost from that angle is land you in the worst of the ghettos -- a place even people living in the ghettos call "the Badlands"), and the cop stopped him back in his county 30 miles of his home (and 2 minutes from my youngest brother's home.) 13.5 hours "lost." And the cops wouldn't give Dad back his driver's licence or keys to that car, so that car is now where Dad went that night -- youngest brother's home. (Dad is threatening to cut off the two youngest siblings unless one of them brings his car back. They're devastated, given they're closest to him and have taken care of him the most in all of this.)

And that happened a few weeks after he set a pile of fireplace wood on fire and never EVER put it out. (The wood pile, which was roughly 12 feet wide and 5 feet high, was under trees at the last stages of their life expectancy too.) Neighbors called in the fire. Dad thinks he owes firefighters "a little extra this year for helping me out." YIKES!)

It's time. It's time to put him in senior's resident care. Oldest brother got stuck with the legal issues for Dad back when Dad was first diagnosed, so he researched good places to put Dad. (Money is NOT an issue for Dad.)

You'd think I just told the problem, didn't you? Nope. That's the head of the problem. The problem festers under the head. Guess who decides if Dad gets sent to a facility? DAD! Not brother. Dad has to decide he's ready to be put away because he no longer is mentally able to decide if he's mentally able. How messed up is that? The truly, utterly, completely mentally disabled are still responsible for their own decisions! That's the law. Dad won't leave his house except by a Hurst. Well, except, he can still use his other car to go out and buy his alcohol, the only thing he's been living on lately, but he doesn't know that. (He thinks he eats. He doesn't.)

So, besides taking him to court, (and he can't be forced to go, if he doesn't want to, in which case, how can the judge make a fair decision), the only other choice that we know of is to have the state go in and decide. They can (and will) decide to take Dad away but to where they will take him, not the place oldest brother picked out. Of course, what do they know except where to send the destitute, so we're talking he goes in a dump, if we can't talk Dad into leaving on his own. He is living on instincts, and his instinct has always been OCD -- or, "what do I want? That's the only acceptable answer." What he wants is to stay in his home, so there is no other "acceptable answer." He can't think past that anymore, and he had trouble thinking past that even back when he could think.

So, there's my rant. There's my request for "Divine Intervention." And, please, PLEASE!!! If anyone knows another option that works in the State of Pennsylvania, I'd love to know it. I've given you the big picture. It's worse than that by so much it's too much to explain.

As for divine intervention? Dad will be 85 in August, if he lives that long. I'm not asking that he be miraculously cured. He's gone! The only thing left of the man I call "Dad" is a body and his instinct. As for the drinking? The last time I saw Dad sober was before that youngest brother was born. Youngest brother is 29 years old. So, yes, divine intervention, but something that doesn't slow this all down, but is so obviously God the rest of my family finally figures out, for sure, God is!
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,323
16,307
113
69
Tennessee
#2
That was quite a sad story about your dad. At this point it may be best to let the state decide where to send your dad. The alternative is to allow Dad to live alone with his dementia. If that is the case then I don't believe that story is going to end well.

That is a real shame about your Dad's drinking. Real sad.

If there is divine intervention it would be for God to let your dad die in his sleep. Tonight.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
2,947
113
#3
In Canada, the doctor can certify someone as needing long term care. It is absurd to me to let a patient with dementia decide his fate. My MIL has Alzheimer's and they kept supporting her at home, long after the familly thought she needed care. But she did get her driver's license pulled by the doctor.

Can a doctor sign the certificate? I would look into that angle. My MIL finally fell and hit her head, almost died from blood loss and when they put her in the hospital, she had lost 50 years of her life. She still thinks she is living in her home town and she is a teenager. Her kids have become her "brothers and sisters" all of whom are dead but one. But at least now she is safe.

It sounds like your dad might have alcohol related dementia. Probably too late to recover now if he could stop drinking. Very sad.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,601
113
#4
Lynn, legally your dad is incompetent to make his own decisions. The ones he's made so far could have cost him his life or that of someone else. You can have him declared mentally incompetent to make capable decisions on his own. Once that's done, then he can be placed in a nursing facility.. No offense, but he's had dementia for 10 years, there isn't enough of his brain left to make coherent decisions on his own.. :/
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#5
Just went through a similar issue with my father in law. Stressed out the wife terribly. He finally scared himself when he took his meds wrong. Got him into assisted living. Dementia is difficult to deal with but the symptoms are evident. Does someone have power of attorney for dad? Usually a good power of attorney will allow someone to make the decision for dad. They meaning the health care folks do not like to do it against the patients wishes but it can be done. Secured facilities are more expensive however with dementia there is usually no other option.

A doctors recommendation will go a long way with the agency on aging folks to getting dad into a safe environment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,601
113
#6
Just went through a similar issue with my father in law. Stressed out the wife terribly. He finally scared himself when he took his meds wrong. Got him into assisted living. Dementia is difficult to deal with but the symptoms are evident. Does someone have power of attorney for dad? Usually a good power of attorney will allow someone to make the decision for dad. They meaning the health care folks do not like to do it against the patients wishes but it can be done. Secured facilities are more expensive however with dementia there is usually no other option.

A doctors recommendation will go a long way with the agency on aging folks to getting dad into a safe environment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, you stole my kitty!! give her back..lol.. :eek:
 
Jun 23, 2015
1,990
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#7
Lynn I feel for you. I have been through this with my dad but years ago! My dad was coaxed to sign over medical and financial power of attorney to my oldest bro and sis. But he still acted like a step child let me tell you! Three times he had it all lined up to move out of the senior citizens home!! The movers actually had all his stuff in a moving van when the senior home staff called and said "do you know your dad is moving?" LOL Dad waited until the holidays to make his move because he knew everyone would be preoccupied! LOL . let me tell ya it was a nightmare but looking back its quite funny to ponder. Dad was smart but yet he couldnt cope on his own.. There was another time when my mom got a call from the sheriffs department in another state! Dad had taken off and was going the wrong way in the middle of the night on a state hgwy 800 miles away!! ! My oldest bro had to catch a flight,rent a car, and go get dad. The sheriff held him in a jail cell. Then he had to pay some guy to take the rental back to the rental place. smh... That isnt the half of all the stories in a span of 20 yrs. My dad resented the sibs who had the power over him. He was always scheming to get away.


The good news is that your dad does have money! Why not hire a livein to parent -sit? For that matter; hire a few so that they dont get overwhelmed!! They can check in with you guys and let you know how dad is faring? They can alert you to dad getting out of hand? Just some suggestions. Im not sure if you all have tried it yet. I wouldnt put dad in a state home . They are dumps and they mishandle the old folks.
Like I said: I feel for you. You and your brothers are in a pickle but I do think there is a solution. It will entail fooling dad unfortunately. He has to be outsmarted. Id clear out the alcohol too if thats possible.

Gods grace to you
Ill be praying for God to provide a way.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#8
Just went through a similar issue with my father in law. Stressed out the wife terribly. He finally scared himself when he took his meds wrong. Got him into assisted living. Dementia is difficult to deal with but the symptoms are evident. Does someone have power of attorney for dad? Usually a good power of attorney will allow someone to make the decision for dad. They meaning the health care folks do not like to do it against the patients wishes but it can be done. Secured facilities are more expensive however with dementia there is usually no other option.

A doctors recommendation will go a long way with the agency on aging folks to getting dad into a safe environment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
First, he gave up on all meds about three years ago, so he won't be getting them mixed up.

Second, my brother is the power of attorney for Dad. He talked to a lawyer, to learn that doesn't do squat.

We're of one accord about putting Dad somewhere safe, (even knowing that will probably put him in a vegetative state), but we can't.
 

PopClick

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2011
4,056
136
63
#9
Wow, I am really sorry. :( I don't have any advice but I will pray for the whole family.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#10
WOW...another family soap opera...makes me wonder if all families need to air their dirty laundry on a public forum that reaches millions...do they need to? does it boast CHRIST? Does it draw people closer? Is it really necessary for the world/internet to know your personal family business? All families have issues..and this could go on until CHRIST returns..but, meanwhile, we could be doing more positive things and not get caught up in rhetoric, drama and unwanted issues. Next time you want to VENT...please take this to your Heavenly FAther and not this forum please. Nobody else needs this. Perhaps YOU feel better by venting it here, but we don't desire this to be part of this personal mess. GOD bless you for being a CHRISTIAN..but shame on you for spreading your version of your family gospel.
 
K

kenthomas27

Guest
#11
Hi Lynn. This sounds awful for you and your family.It's going to be very difficult for you to get him declared mentally incompetent. I don't know Pa law but that's a tough one to get. Does any family member have power of attorney over health or finance? If not, I would highly recommend someone trying to get that. Typically someone your dad trusts to sign over. He sounds a little cynical and lacks trust so I'm sure it will need to be someone he really respects - maybe someone with a financial background like a CPA? If money isn't a big concern, you might "transition" him into a facility care with full time home care for a little while. This can help assure someone is getting him to eat real food and not driving anywhere or at least the home care specialist can let you know if he does.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,601
113
#12
WOW...another family soap opera...makes me wonder if all families need to air their dirty laundry on a public forum that reaches millions...do they need to? does it boast CHRIST? Does it draw people closer? Is it really necessary for the world/internet to know your personal family business? All families have issues..and this could go on until CHRIST returns..but, meanwhile, we could be doing more positive things and not get caught up in rhetoric, drama and unwanted issues. Next time you want to VENT...please take this to your Heavenly FAther and not this forum please. Nobody else needs this. Perhaps YOU feel better by venting it here, but we don't desire this to be part of this personal mess. GOD bless you for being a CHRISTIAN..but shame on you for spreading your version of your family gospel.


1.) You are so very rude and cruel in most of your responses on this site.. Have some compassion!

2.) This IS a FAMILY issue, AND this IS the FAMILY forum. This is NOT YOUR FORUM. You don't own it.

3.) No one forced you to click on this thread, and no one forced you to leave a sarcastic reply.

4.) I'm fairly sure atwhatcost HAS taken this to God. Obviously she also wants our help, although YOUR help, I'm positive she could do without!!!

5.) I think YOU are the one who needs to take your rude, mean and cruel attitude to God, because your attitude definitely needs an adjustment..
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#13
Lynn I feel for you. I have been through this with my dad but years ago! My dad was coaxed to sign over medical and financial power of attorney to my oldest bro and sis. But he still acted like a step child let me tell you! Three times he had it all lined up to move out of the senior citizens home!! The movers actually had all his stuff in a moving van when the senior home staff called and said "do you know your dad is moving?" LOL Dad waited until the holidays to make his move because he knew everyone would be preoccupied! LOL . let me tell ya it was a nightmare but looking back its quite funny to ponder. Dad was smart but yet he couldnt cope on his own.. There was another time when my mom got a call from the sheriffs department in another state! Dad had taken off and was going the wrong way in the middle of the night on a state hgwy 800 miles away!! ! My oldest bro had to catch a flight,rent a car, and go get dad. The sheriff held him in a jail cell. Then he had to pay some guy to take the rental back to the rental place. smh... That isnt the half of all the stories in a span of 20 yrs. My dad resented the sibs who had the power over him. He was always scheming to get away.


The good news is that your dad does have money! Why not hire a livein to parent -sit? For that matter; hire a few so that they dont get overwhelmed!! They can check in with you guys and let you know how dad is faring? They can alert you to dad getting out of hand? Just some suggestions. Im not sure if you all have tried it yet. I wouldnt put dad in a state home . They are dumps and they mishandle the old folks.
Like I said: I feel for you. You and your brothers are in a pickle but I do think there is a solution. It will entail fooling dad unfortunately. He has to be outsmarted. Id clear out the alcohol too if thats possible.

Gods grace to you
Ill be praying for God to provide a way.
Oldest brother had a couple of social workers go to Dad's to access him. The first thing I asked my brother was "And the guns are gone, right?"

Actually, they weren't, but my brother removed the bullets a few years ago, even though Dad bought the wrong bullets for the guns.

When he was first diagnosed, the perfect match for someone moving in with him was hubby and me. We're both disabled, so we'd could be there all the time, and even take him with us to grocery shopping. (His favorite hobby, although three hours in beyond either of our capabilities.) The only thing we couldn't do is deal with Dad when he goes violent. (End of Stage 2.) We both are bigger than him, but he's always been athletic and we're disabled, so even at 75 years old he could beat both of us up. He would have none of that. He won't have anyone in his house, except for family and only for a few hours.

The night he went to youngest brother's home after spending all day "lost," (and I keep putting quotes around that because how do you get lost for 13 hours, drive around, apparently got gas at least twice, go no more than an hour from your home and have no idea where you went?), he spent the entire night going into my brother's bedroom to ask where the kitchen is. It's a one bedroom apartment. How lost can you get? So whoever watches him, (older brother volunteered this last week), has to be awake 24/7.

He's beyond in home help now, and he wouldn't take it when he wasn't.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#14
1.) You are so very rude and cruel in most of your responses on this site.. Have some compassion!

2.) This IS a FAMILY issue, AND this IS the FAMILY forum. This is NOT YOUR FORUM. You don't own it.

3.) No one forced you to click on this thread, and no one forced you to leave a sarcastic reply.

4.) I'm fairly sure atwhatcost HAS taken this to God. Obviously she also wants our help, although YOUR help, I'm positive she could do without!!!

5.) I think YOU are the one who needs to take your rude, mean and cruel attitude to God, because your attitude definitely needs an adjustment..
Um, I've had him on ignored since the beginning of April. (Note how long I've been on this site. lol) He's into his own form of melodrama. :D (I didn't even read what he said when you "reply with quotes" him. I'm nosy, but not that nosy. lol)
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#15
Hi Lynn. This sounds awful for you and your family.It's going to be very difficult for you to get him declared mentally incompetent. I don't know Pa law but that's a tough one to get. Does any family member have power of attorney over health or finance? If not, I would highly recommend someone trying to get that. Typically someone your dad trusts to sign over. He sounds a little cynical and lacks trust so I'm sure it will need to be someone he really respects - maybe someone with a financial background like a CPA? If money isn't a big concern, you might "transition" him into a facility care with full time home care for a little while. This can help assure someone is getting him to eat real food and not driving anywhere or at least the home care specialist can let you know if he does.
As mentioned earlier, (yeah, I reply before reading the rest too, so don't worry about it), oldest brother is his Power of Attorney. He's also Dad's financial planner, even made Dad money during the recession, so that's why money is no issue.
 
Jun 23, 2015
1,990
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#16
Oldest brother had a couple of social workers go to Dad's to access him. The first thing I asked my brother was "And the guns are gone, right?"

Actually, they weren't, but my brother removed the bullets a few years ago, even though Dad bought the wrong bullets for the guns.

When he was first diagnosed, the perfect match for someone moving in with him was hubby and me. We're both disabled, so we'd could be there all the time, and even take him with us to grocery shopping. (His favorite hobby, although three hours in beyond either of our capabilities.) The only thing we couldn't do is deal with Dad when he goes violent. (End of Stage 2.) We both are bigger than him, but he's always been athletic and we're disabled, so even at 75 years old he could beat both of us up. He would have none of that. He won't have anyone in his house, except for family and only for a few hours.

The night he went to youngest brother's home after spending all day "lost," (and I keep putting quotes around that because how do you get lost for 13 hours, drive around, apparently got gas at least twice, go no more than an hour from your home and have no idea where you went?), he spent the entire night going into my brother's bedroom to ask where the kitchen is. It's a one bedroom apartment. How lost can you get? So whoever watches him, (older brother volunteered this last week), has to be awake 24/7.

He's beyond in home help now, and he wouldn't take it when he wasn't.
Im just wondering if brother has medical power of attorney? In my state there are two types of power of attorney. With medical; the family makes the decision and not defaulted to the state.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#17
Im just wondering if brother has medical power of attorney? In my state there are two types of power of attorney. With medical; the family makes the decision and not defaulted to the state.
Dad made a living will decades ago. Oldest bro is power of attorney. I'm the one stuck with the pull-the-plug issues. Is there more to the medical part besides getting that lovely decision on when to pull the plug? (And, with humor in tact still, I have to laugh that Dad put me in that spot. He never listened to anything I ever said when it came to God. It always felt like he literally turned deaf when I even mentioned God, and yet, poof! Somewhere in his thinking is "she has the steadfast morality to hold off until all hope is lost before pulling that plug." Not so deaf after all. lol)

But does that enable me in someway to help oldest bro and Dad?
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,601
113
#18
Dad made a living will decades ago. Oldest bro is power of attorney. I'm the one stuck with the pull-the-plug issues. Is there more to the medical part besides getting that lovely decision on when to pull the plug? (And, with humor in tact still, I have to laugh that Dad put me in that spot. He never listened to anything I ever said when it came to God. It always felt like he literally turned deaf when I even mentioned God, and yet, poof! Somewhere in his thinking is "she has the steadfast morality to hold off until all hope is lost before pulling that plug." Not so deaf after all. lol)

But does that enable me in someway to help oldest bro and Dad?
What I don't quite understand is, if your brother is his POA, then your brother legally SHOULD be able to make the decision to have him put in a facility somewhere. Your dad has Alzheimer's, and his actions obviously tell that he's incompetent to make rational decisions.. Your brother basically has all the power of deciding where dad goes, and when..
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#19
What I don't quite understand is, if your brother is his POA, then your brother legally SHOULD be able to make the decision to have him put in a facility somewhere. Your dad has Alzheimer's, and his actions obviously tell that he's incompetent to make rational decisions.. Your brother basically has all the power of deciding where dad goes, and when..
Exactly! That's why the "rant" portion of my post. I cannot believe the anarchists took the "don't warehouse mentally disabled people" so far as they have. They honestly and truly have made it impossible to put someone so far out of their mind somewhere safe unless that person agrees to be institutionalized.

I read a Reader's Digest article last year from the cousin of a mass murderer. The mass murderer showed all the signs that he was going to get some guns, find a public place and kill people, but the man's mother, psychiatrist, and family members couldn't lock him up because it was up to him to make that choice. We've seriously gone insane with our healthcare rulings. The family couldn't lock him up, so he did exactly what he said he was going to do!

My father is a danger to himself, his house, and since his house is in a community where trees are all at the end of their life expectancy, so those trees are nothing more than tall kindling, his whole neighborhood, and anyone he runs into on the street, and yet we cannot put him somewhere safe, because, yo! He has rights! What about everyone else's rights? This isn't a Pennsylvania problem. This is an American problem.
 
Jun 23, 2015
1,990
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#20
Dad made a living will decades ago. Oldest bro is power of attorney. I'm the one stuck with the pull-the-plug issues. Is there more to the medical part besides getting that lovely decision on when to pull the plug? (And, with humor in tact still, I have to laugh that Dad put me in that spot. He never listened to anything I ever said when it came to God. It always felt like he literally turned deaf when I even mentioned God, and yet, poof! Somewhere in his thinking is "she has the steadfast morality to hold off until all hope is lost before pulling that plug." Not so deaf after all. lol)

But does that enable me in someway to help oldest bro and Dad?
Medical power of attorney gives you the right to make all decisions concerning your dads medical needs. It has nothing to do with DNR. The living will may very well include the DNR stipulation. DNR is a document on file that the patient himself decides when lucid.I am pretty sure it is part of the living will.

Is dad saved? Would you feel comfortable PMing me? Id like to share some things with you but not in public forum.
Ive been praying for you. Ive been standing in the gap.

The Lord shine his countenance upon you!
Jesus is in this storm with you .