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God set up the government. He put into place the laws and whatever else was needed to determine what a person's punishment for a crime that they've done. The government is in charge of us here on this earth. God is the ultimate judge, and if a person who was wrongly imprisoned or put to death, truly was innocent, then God will sort that out in the end. The bible says we fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and places of high power. To me that equals our government. Satan is the ruler of this world, and he definitely has his minions in place within the government, so no doubt that some innocent people get used as patsies for someone else and are falsely accused and imprisoned.
Here is where the rub comes in. God has given this authority to the government and does not hold individual men accountable only a corporate accountability.
For the sake of order and peace in society these are needful activities of government. A trial before a jury of ones peers is fair as you will get in dealing with your fellow man.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the sake of order and peace in society these are needful activities of government. A trial before a jury of ones peers is fair as you will get in dealing with your fellow man.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
But wouldn't it be prudent to not kill potentially innocent people? God can sort out the wrongful life sentence given to an innocent person by a fallible judicial system.
Using your logic, in times of war we should just use nuclear weapons to obliterate the enemies infrastructure even at the expense of killing innocent civilians. "Let God sort them out."
Why are people only able to see the sacredness of the unborn but not of the living?
Using your logic, in times of war we should just use nuclear weapons to obliterate the enemies infrastructure even at the expense of killing innocent civilians. "Let God sort them out."
Why are people only able to see the sacredness of the unborn but not of the living?
K
If there were a bowl of M&M's, 1,000 of them, and only one was toxic, would you reach in the bowl and start eating it? Would you let your child eat even one M&M? Or would you throw away the entire bowl because it's impossible to decipher which M&M is the toxic one? The answer seems simple enough to me.
Would you rather live in a society where there was no order of law? Where anarchy and lawlessness was the order of every day? Where your dear child was kidnapped and sold into slavery and you had no recourse?
You may eat with the possibility of living or not eat and stave with certainty.
God provides for the little starling in the field will He not provide for you? Seeing you are greater than many starlings.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You may eat with the possibility of living or not eat and stave with certainty.
God provides for the little starling in the field will He not provide for you? Seeing you are greater than many starlings.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We're defining murder a little differently, so I'm not sure we're going to agree on that point. I'm saying that the government has God-ordained authority to kill in certain circumstances. Only the guilt or innocence of the accused makes it questionable; you seem to be asserting that the execution of an innocent person is always murder. I assert that where the guilt is believed but is incorrect, it is tragic error (which warrants extreme care to ensure real guilt), but not murder.
"If there is doubt" according to whom? To the family and supporters of the accused, or to the authorities and participants in the justice system who are charged with both convicting the guilty and clearing the innocent?
I can't think of a good reason (ie. scripturally-defensible and consistent with Christian faith) to abort a child. The wrong beliefs or ignorance of the mother don't excuse her. The laws which permit abortion don't make it right in God's perception.
I agree with you; some scripture is descriptive, such as the Genesis passage, but some is prescriptive. I think the Romans passage is prescriptive; that is, it is teaching directly, not simply telling what happened. Further down, I'm referring to the justice and judgment of God here, not to man's various versions of them.
Fair point on the straw man argument, I'll concede that.
Basically I agree with you on the question of guilt and doubt. I'm just not sure that 100% certainty is attainable. If that means nobody gets executed, so be it.
"If there is doubt" according to whom? To the family and supporters of the accused, or to the authorities and participants in the justice system who are charged with both convicting the guilty and clearing the innocent?
I can't think of a good reason (ie. scripturally-defensible and consistent with Christian faith) to abort a child. The wrong beliefs or ignorance of the mother don't excuse her. The laws which permit abortion don't make it right in God's perception.
I agree with you; some scripture is descriptive, such as the Genesis passage, but some is prescriptive. I think the Romans passage is prescriptive; that is, it is teaching directly, not simply telling what happened. Further down, I'm referring to the justice and judgment of God here, not to man's various versions of them.
Fair point on the straw man argument, I'll concede that.
Basically I agree with you on the question of guilt and doubt. I'm just not sure that 100% certainty is attainable. If that means nobody gets executed, so be it.
M
Not sure I would put too much confidence in such studies... But even if it was possible that a person innocent of the crime they was charged with was on death row... If they had a fair trial ? That's what we as a society have concluded is best for our society ... The idea that this is a issue in our society above other issues is just silly to me .... God upholds this system according to His Word...if a man is convicted unfairly? Let him seek God and God will hear him.
That's why we have a jury system. Twelve people must be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. In many cases the death penalty is not even considered if the evidence is weak or there are contributing circumstances that warrant a lesser penalty.
Death penalty is reserved for only the most severe cases. There are people so evil that the only thing that can be done is their destruction.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Death penalty is reserved for only the most severe cases. There are people so evil that the only thing that can be done is their destruction.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I wouldn't know if I'm unique -- I can't comment on everyone in the US. Yes, I strongly believe and am confident of my statements. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
You know, my sister-in-law had an abortion when she was about 19. I think she probably WAS misled at the time that it was not a baby but just fetal tissue, but I can tell you that right now, today, about 40 years later, she still feels guilty about that abortion. It's too bad she can't come to terms with it regarding forgiveness from the Father and forgiving herself. So even if the women who have abortions today can sleep well, I'm guessing that down the road their decision will haunt them. This is one additional reason abortion must end.
You know, my sister-in-law had an abortion when she was about 19. I think she probably WAS misled at the time that it was not a baby but just fetal tissue, but I can tell you that right now, today, about 40 years later, she still feels guilty about that abortion. It's too bad she can't come to terms with it regarding forgiveness from the Father and forgiving herself. So even if the women who have abortions today can sleep well, I'm guessing that down the road their decision will haunt them. This is one additional reason abortion must end.
K
No one is saying it's the number one issue, at the very least, not me.
Yes, society (in large parts around the world) has decided on a trial to determine if a person is innocent or guilty. The punishment is a completely different standard and discussion. In the past, juries have deliberated and said "not guilty" even though they believed they were more than likely guilty because they knew the prosecution was seeking for the death penalty. They weren't confident enough to say "guilty" which would mean a death sentence to an innocent man if they are wrong. I can't entirely blame them.
Yes, society (in large parts around the world) has decided on a trial to determine if a person is innocent or guilty. The punishment is a completely different standard and discussion. In the past, juries have deliberated and said "not guilty" even though they believed they were more than likely guilty because they knew the prosecution was seeking for the death penalty. They weren't confident enough to say "guilty" which would mean a death sentence to an innocent man if they are wrong. I can't entirely blame them.
Several issues come to mind here...
First is those who most oppose abortion are often those who most support the death penalty. It's like they believe all life is precious - until it's born.
Secondly, Jesus stood in the way of an execution of a guilty party that was sanctioned by law.
There are cases in Acts where people were put to death, but that was by the Holy Spirit in response to their lying to God. Not because of the infraction of some man-made law.
And finally, if you don't trust the government to run things like welfare and health care, why would you trust it in deciding one's life and death?
First is those who most oppose abortion are often those who most support the death penalty. It's like they believe all life is precious - until it's born.
Secondly, Jesus stood in the way of an execution of a guilty party that was sanctioned by law.
There are cases in Acts where people were put to death, but that was by the Holy Spirit in response to their lying to God. Not because of the infraction of some man-made law.
And finally, if you don't trust the government to run things like welfare and health care, why would you trust it in deciding one's life and death?
Then it is a straw man that God has established. Even in prison many of these evil persons are a danger to the other prisoners.
We do not have capital punishment just so we have a choice of what to mete out upon criminals. We have it to end the threat they pose to descent folks in our society.
What should be done with the folks in ISIS? They cut peoples heads off just because they do not share the same religious beliefs. They throw men off of high buildings because they are sodomites. We put them in Gitmo and then release them with a stern warning not to do it again.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We do not have capital punishment just so we have a choice of what to mete out upon criminals. We have it to end the threat they pose to descent folks in our society.
What should be done with the folks in ISIS? They cut peoples heads off just because they do not share the same religious beliefs. They throw men off of high buildings because they are sodomites. We put them in Gitmo and then release them with a stern warning not to do it again.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Evidence. Usually it all comes down to evidence. People get set up, framed, and yes, sometimes the set up is discovered and the innocent accused exonerated. Other times the innocent one ends up in jail and eventually death row, simply because the evidence was manipulated to show that they did it. In a court of law, sometimes all you need is circumstantial evidence.
For example, say "John" had a physical fight with "Jane" and several people witnessed this. Then a few hours later, "Jane" is found dead in her house. What NOBODY knows, is that while John and Jane were out on the sidewalk fighting, someone was in Jane's house waiting for her, and kills her when she comes in from fighting with John. Let's say the intruder is her ex-husband "David", and he was just as abusive as John is. David attacks Jane and kills her. Jane had physically fought with John, so HIS dna is under her nails, but yet David surprised her from behind and bashed her head in. So none of his dna on her body. Now, David's dna is found in her house, because he goes there to see his kids, so Jane's neighbors know it's normal to see David coming and going to and from Jane's house.
The witnesses who saw Jane fighting with John on the sidewalk, talk to the cops and give their testimony. John's fingerprints are found on the bat that killed Jane, because he owns it, uses it to play ball with Jane's kids, AND because his prints are the ONLY ones found on it, because David wore gloves while handling the bat to kill Jane. So John gets arrested because they have his prints on the murder weapon. Meanwhile, David has set up a rock solid alibi for where HE was when Jane was killed, because he knows he'll be a suspect, because the ex or husband is who they look at first. Cops know he had violent history with Jane, yet none of his DNA is on the murder weapon, so he is exonerated while John gets sent to prison because, for one, he has no alibi for the time Jane was killed, and his DNA is on the murder weapon.
This is a prime example of how and why some innocent people are imprisoned while the guilty party goes free. It all boils down to what the evidence (allegedly) shows.
K
It's only haunting to a woman who had an abortion if her conscience dictates the unborn child was in fact a child of God. Women who don't have that conviction sleep just as peacefully as you do about executions.
It's only haunting to a jury member if it turns out that they were wrong in their judgment and as a result, an innocent person was put to death.
You believe there is no capacity to error, that the judicial system is as perfect as God in delivering death sentencing in present day. With that aspect, yes, we have to agree to disagree.
It's only haunting to a jury member if it turns out that they were wrong in their judgment and as a result, an innocent person was put to death.
You believe there is no capacity to error, that the judicial system is as perfect as God in delivering death sentencing in present day. With that aspect, yes, we have to agree to disagree.