Forty years (or so) of feminism. Has it changed the way woman view themselves? Has...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C

Church2u2

Guest
Yes Peacenik..there are plenty women who man bash and vice versa. The "be submissive" command is often thrown up in women's faces but are men submitting to their head as scripture commands??What about 1st Corinthians 11:3.."But. I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ ,the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God". Why beat women down?? Men should take a look at themselves first. Y'all are supposed to be the leaders. Right???
 

proverbs35

Senior Member
Nov 10, 2012
825
239
43
Proverbs35

You mentioned Isaiah 3:12, but the quote was not included in your post,
Isaiah 3:12
"As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”"

Honestly, when you read that, does this scripture present women ruling over the people in a positive or negative light? Any of us who have read the Bible know that most of the kings of Israel did a bad job of it. There were a few men who ruled righteously and served the Lord. That doesn't prove that patriarchy is bad and that matriarchy or feminism is good.

The scripture I quoted above does fit well with patriarchy, not the best example of it in the Bible, but it is certainly not a feminst or pro-matriarchy verse. Land passing through the male line, men giving their daughters away and being able to cancel wives or daughters vows are all patriarchal laws. God gave Israel plenty of counter-cultural laws. He could have commanded that women be the boss, and He could have given completely egalitarian laws if He had wanted to (and that were His nature, etc.) But that is not the sort of law that God gave the one nation to Whom He gave national laws, laws that are holy, just, and good.

The fact that many of these laws are patriarchal in nature does not mean that God hates women, either. Patriarchy does not equal misogyny
Honestly, all the wicked male leaders documented in the Bible, expecially the Old Testament do not show patriarchy in a positive light or buttress its effectiveness. Quite the opposite, it shows that patriarchy was very often an ineffective, counterproductive form of government in which the men in leadership, probably more often than not, abused their power by directing those under their authority away from God instead of to God. As I pointed out earlier, there are numerous examples of that in scripture, and those examples are not limited to the kings.

Presidente said: That doesn't prove that patriarchy is bad and that matriarchy or feminism is good.

I've said it at least twice before on this thread (post 81, 157) but evidently you missed it, so I'll post it again.

I'm not defending feminism. A lot of sin has been and continues to be committed in the name of feminism. However, a lot of sin and Disobedience has been and continues to be committed under the banner of patriarchy. There are countless examples of that in the news - worldwide and local. I'm not defending feminism, but I am pointing out the pot calling the kettle black tactic of using feminism as a scapegoat, While completely ignoring the many sins and Disobedience committed under the banner of patriarchy. It's very reminiscent of the woman caught in adultery. The Patriarchs of that era had no problem with accusing the adulterous woman, but let the man go unpunished. It was impossible for her to commit adultery by herself. Modern-day patriarchy supporters don't mind metaphorically stoning feminism, but they are all too eager to let the sin & disobedience that has happened under the banner of patriarchy go without mention, notice or accountability, And that's hypocrisy.

Presidente said: Land passing through the male line ...

In the Old Testament, land passed through the male line. However, there are examples where the men who inherited that land mismanaged and lost it. The wicked kings of Israel led the people away from following the Lord and cause them to commit great sin. As a result, God got angry and exiled the children of Israel from their homeland into Assyria. The wicked kings caused Israel to lose land that had been passed down from generation to generation. Again, that does not illustrate the effectiveness of patriarchy. Losing land that had been passed down from generation to generation demonstrates poor management and ineffectiveness. 2 Kings 17:21-23

Presidente said: The fact that many of these laws are patriarchal in nature does not mean that God hates women, either.

Of course God the Father/Creator does not hate women. After all, God is love. However, that doesn't mean that ALL men love women because God the Father/Creator loves women. There are countless examples of men throughout history and around the world who hated women and used their authority to commit hateful acts against women. There are a multitude of examples around the world and throughout history to support that.
 

Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
1,639
105
63
In this post I am going to underline some of the ideas posted over here that I find are erroneous and faulty at least with from my understanding and my relationship with God.

People are of course free to disagree.

Some of my statements are followed by a Bible verse with parenthesis. This is to indicate the basis of that statement is borrowed from Scripture verse. I decided to not post too many verses owing to the increased length of the post. I do encourage everyone to check these verses out.


1. Patriarchy is a God set rule for a perfect world –


The basis of this thinking is that God is the Father and all references to Him are mostly male pronouns. The truth is God is not a man.

Numbers 23:19


God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?


Does this mean we refer to Him with female pronouns? Not at all. I support honoring the Scripture and the way God has been depicted.

I do note though that God’s comfort and love is also shown equivalent to that of a mother. (Isaiah 66:13, Matthew 23:37)

In the kingdom of God, Jesus clearly said that people would be like angels and would not marry.

Matthew 22:30

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.


This would mean that there is no single gender “ruling” over another or making decisions for another.

There is no patriarchy or matriarchy in the kingdom of God.

2. The Law in Israel allowed males to cancel their daughter’s vows, give them away in marriage etc. This was good.

So?
The law also allowed men to divorce their wives with a note.

Matthew 19:8

Jesus replied “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.”


He doesn’t say it is a God ordained divination.

To call these laws given by Moses to Israel as God’s expectation from His people in the present times is surely erroneous.
We do know the Law is good if used properly but is not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:8). We are not under the Law if we are under His grace.

The significance of the Law is associated with the Old Covenant, specified to Israel.

The old times were certainly much rougher than the times we live in with all our modern comforts.

We don’t follow these laws anymore as much as we don’t burn sacrifices to God. God calls everyone to Him in repentance – both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 17:30)

God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:11, Acts 10:34)

So how can anyone justify, in these times patriarchal laws canceling the rights of women is beyond me. It may have done well for Israel 2000 years ago but Jesus came to set things right with this world.

Patriarchy is associated with a fallen world – corrupted by sin and imperfect.
 

Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
1,639
105
63
Finally, I want to posit this -

Men and women are equal in the sight of God

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.



A lot of Christian apologists face the question of Biblical support for slavery, the undermining of women etc…however it is clear to me, at least, that God loves His children and there is no distinction regarding race, gender or economic status in the grace of God.

As part of the body, everyone is equal.

That being said, modern society too has moved on to this notion where men and women are equal.

(Perhaps there is radical feminism, which wants to prove women are superior, however I haven’t come across this much. I do not endorse it either)

What this means for all of us is that there is no basis for a man to think he can overpower, dominate and control a woman when the law of the land doesn’t support it.

In the last 40 years of feminism, women have been encouraged to pursue higher education (more women decide to go to college compared to the past), work for a living and in general increase their economic potential.

No longer does a woman have to be dependent on a man for sustenance provided she works.

So this idea that a man be the boss of his wife and that she obeys him might do well in a patriarchal society but does not bode well when a woman is just as independent as the man and has equal or more earning potential.

Feminism takes away the controlling leash. While religion and men in the name of patriarchy can enforce themselves using bible scripture to bash everyone else…the law of the land gives an opportunity for women to safeguard their interests.

If anyone thinks it is ok and good for someone else to control and domineer another adult, sane human being – be it through slavery or gender difference they surely have not fathomed the love of God for others. He gave Jesus to be flayed, whipped and crucified, have his bloodshed so that the very person subjugated is also granted eternal life.

I am not saying that everyone following these patriarchy principles does these things.


I am sure people have happy relationships with such dynamics as well.

However, this is of course my understanding, when in a relationship with someone who in the eyes of God and society is just as equal as you, love becomes the glue.

Anyway, this is only in marital relationships. I see no basis in the Bible or otherwise where a random man has any say in the lives of a woman (barring church but that is again another topic)

The same people bringing up scripture about submission and patriarchy rarely bring up submission to female authorities.

Are female rulers negative for a country?

Isaiah 3:12 is the basis for this perception – however again context matters. Who was this written to?
Are the judgments on Judah and Jerusalem to be extrapolated to the rest of the world cross-culturally?

If one has a look at the career of Angela Merkel, it doesn’t seem so. She won three terms in office and Germany has so far survived the economic crisis that hit Europe after 2008.

The Bible even points out that God establishes the ruling authority. (Romans 13:1).

There are many leaders outside of government in business and technology who are also women.

Meg Whitman CEO & President of HP, Ursula Burns CEO of Xerox (also the first black American woman to head a Fortune 500 company), Ginni Rometty CEO of IBM, Indra Nooyi CEO & Chairperson PepsiCo are just FEW of the names that come to mind.

I see too many negative depictions of feminine qualities from many people.

There are Jewish prayers thanking God for not being a woman.

I have to say though that on the basis of reading the Bible and my relationship with God, as a woman I am so grateful because as a Christian I have been so empowered.

This of course is just my opinion. ^_^
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,086
1,749
113
Rachel,
The fact that God gave laws that were patriarchal is contrary to the feminist theory that an evil patriarchy oppresses women. Modern Feminist thought sees patriarchy as evil, as the source of women's woes. Women are perpetual victims of the patriarchy. That contradicts the Bible, which has a number of patriarchal laws. If God is good, and God gave patriarchal laws, then this Feminist theory is wrong.

We also have to keep in mind that philosophies change over the centuries. A few centuries ago, having a monarch was the norm in countries in many parts of the world. Nowadays, many peoples believe that for a government to be 'legitimate' it has to be democratic. But, while the Bible shows God giving laws regarding monarchy and that God worked with Israel in other systems of government, it doesn't endorse democracy. We shouldn't assume that Democratic concepts are God-ordained concepts. We should not assume that even some of our concepts about human rights are rights that we are endowed with by our Creator. My country has a Bill of Rights that includes freedom of speech and freedom of the press. This has been interpreted to allow pornography and blasphemy to be legal. The US government may not prosecute someone for blaspheming God. But that does not mean that someone who blasphemes God will be guiltless on the day of judgment. God judges sins that nations do not.

The book of Deuteronomy did allow for divorce, as Christ explained, because of the hardness of men's hearts. But where does Jesus teach that the cancelling of the vows of wives or daughters came because of the hardness of men's hearts? Where does He say that Israel inheritance going to sons was because of the hardness of the heart? Why did he choose 12 male apostles? This is not to downplay the role of women. He had women disciples as well, and of course they were important, but the 12 played a leadership role.

Twice the New Testament list requirements for the elder or bishop role, that the bishop must be a man. I Timothy 3 and Titus 1 use different words for 'man.' The bishop must be a man with one wife. This is also patriarchal.

God's design is certain 'good patriarchy.' God has revealed Himself as the Father. Of course, you can find analogies to something a female does. For example, Jesus said He wanted to gather Jerusalem unto him like a hen gathers her chicks under Her wings. But Jesus is still definitely a man, in spite of the analogy. God the Father is not a man, but He did create man in is own image. He created male and female, in His image. So some aspects of God are revealed in creation. This helps us understand God to some limited degree. God is a Father, and He created men with the potential to be fathers. So God is in a very real sense a Father, as He has revealed Himself to be through Christ. It is not anthropromorphic language to call God the Father. Fatherhood began with God and fatherhood in our earthly realm is a reflection of the divine reality, though our realm has been tainted by sin. God is the Father, as we live in a patriarchal creation, with God the Father over all. So this patriarchy is good. God also ordained that wives submit to their husbands and children obey their parents. Again, this is something 'patriarchal' that is part of the divine order of creation.

The following verses illustrate the patriarchal nature of the creation, in heaven and earth. The word translated 'family' is 'patria'. We do indeed live in a divine patriarchy.


Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

This commentary further explains it.

Ellicot's Commentary for English Readers said:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.—The original word (patria) here rendered “family” is literally derived from the word “father” (pater). It has been proposed to render it fatherhood, and translate, from whom all fatherhoodwhatever derives its name—all lower fatherhood being, in fact, a shadow and derivative from the Fatherhood of God. The translation is tempting, yielding a grand sense, and one thoroughly accordant with the treatment of the earthly relationship below (Ephesians 6:1-4). But the usage of the word is clearly against it; and we must render it every family—that is, every body of rational beings in earth or heaven united under one common fatherhood, and bearing the name (as in a family or clan) of the common ancestor. Such bodies are certainly the first germs or units of human society; what their heavenly counterparts may be, who can tell? The Apostle looks upon the fathers whose names they delight to bear as the imperfect representatives of God, and upon the family itself, with its head, as the type in miniature of the whole society of spiritual beings united in sonship to the Father in heaven. Hence he declares that it is ultimately from Him that every family derives the name of patria, and by that very name bears witness to the Divine Fatherhood, on which he desires here to lay especial stress.
Does a woman on the street have to obey every random man? I certainly don't think so. But the New Testament gives teaching for families that is patriarchal. The wife is to submit to the husband. Paul twice writes that the bishop is to be a man.

Paul does say that in Christ there is no male or female, slave nor free. The context of the passage is that of being heirs according to the promise. Before, Judaism had allowed for conversion to Judaism, for Gentiles to be recognized as part of the people of God. But the way a woman could convert was through a man. If her husband converted and all the males in the household were circumcized, she could convert. She could marry a Jewish man and convert. Slaves could be converted if the head of the household converted and was circumcised, and the slaves were also circumcised. But, through Christ, the individual woman or individual slave could become a part of the household of faith, whether or no the husband or head of the household converted.

But did Paul teach absolute gender egalitarianism in his writings? Certainly not. He taught that wives are to submit to their husbands. He left instructions that the elder-overseer bishop be a man, speaking to two of his workers. Old Testament elders were also men. God gave laws concerning the king of Israel (even before Saul), not the queen of Israel. In the time of Moses, men were empowered as elders. There is plenty of patriarchy both in the old and New Testaments.

You can say we don't burn sacrifices anymore. (The temple is destroyed, but the apostles and many of the other Jewish believers might have done so after the ascension.) But the fact that the Old Testament is so patriarchal in many ways runs contrary to feminist thought that patriarchy is evil, and should cause anyone to doubt that promoting feminism is something on God's agenda.



So this idea that a man be the boss of his wife and that she obeys him might do well in a patriarchal society but does not bode well when a woman is just as independent as the man and has equal or more earning potential.

Men are to love their wives. I believe it is unhealthy for a marriage for a man to be domineering toward his wife. There is also sowing and reaping. I wouldn't want a boss or government official being oppressive toward me.


But you are wrong to oppose the idea that a wife has to obey her husband. I Peter 3 teaches women to submit to their husbands. Does that mean wives have to obey their husbands? Yes, because Peter explains in this chapter that wives should submit to their husbands even as Sarah obeyed Abraham. That's an example of what submission to the husband means, obedience to the husband. Like the passage points out, some husbands do not obey the word, and some of these may be more domineering to their wives. Peter said for wives to submit to their husbands that if any do not obey the word, they might be won by the lifestyle of their wives. Her obedience can help him be won from his disobedience.
 
Last edited:

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,086
1,749
113
Yes Peacenik..there are plenty women who man bash and vice versa. The "be submissive" command is often thrown up in women's faces but are men submitting to their head as scripture commands??What about 1st Corinthians 11:3.."But. I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ ,the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God". Why beat women down?? Men should take a look at themselves first. Y'all are supposed to be the leaders. Right???
Why is reminding women of the good, holy teaching of the Bible to submit to their husbands considered throwing it in their faces or beating women down? But reminding men to submit to their head Christ not throwing it in their faces or beating them down?

It is good for women to be reminded to submit to their husbands. It is good for men, and everyone else, to be reminded to submit to Christ.

Maybe some of women who feel beat down or like something is being thrown in their face when they are reminded of Biblical requirements to submit to the husband just have a problem with submission. I've got a relative who doesn't like to be reminded that he is living in adultery with another man's wife, and that he needs to repent.

When someone quotes the verse about wives submitting to husbands, Christian women on the forum should agree with that and not get defensive about it. But women in many parts of the world, especially in the west, have been taught against this idea from a young age, indoctrinated through TV shows, the movies, and the educational system. The media and entertainment often have a subtle or overt message that a man who expects a wife to submit to her husband is oppressive, evil, immoral, abusive, etc. So I can understand why women raised in this environment would have a problem with it. US culture does not see submission as an important cultural 'value.' It is seen as a negative thing, which isn't really Biblical. Many unbelievers would be uncomfortable with talk of having to submit every area of their lives to God. Some believers feel a bit uncomfortable, too. Submission does not really appeal much to the flesh, either.
 

JosephsDreams

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2015
4,313
467
83
Men and woman each have overlapping strengths and weakness'. And of course each have talents that often don't usually overlap. But we have more in common due to our sin nature then not.
The best leaders are the leaders with a strong and Godly man or woman behind him or her.
It is really that simple.
Men have primarily been the leaders throughout history due to many factors: social, religious, economic and military reasons. That is changing. Give woman a chance we say. A better world will come of it. Surly you jest. I have no great expectations (hey, that would make a wonderful name or a book) that given enough time and rope, woman won't tie the same tight noose around their sinful necks in their roles as leaders that their male counterparts have.
It just might be a more fashionable looking knot though.
 

peacenik

Senior Member
May 11, 2016
3,071
26
38
Never heard of her, but I don't doubt it for a minute.



She and other hip hop female "artists" are hardly unique. For years Lita Ford made it part of her act to place her boots on men's faces when she was om stage. If any objected, she would say that he did so because he was a F------ (the term used for those who are sexually abnormal). A couple of years ago Courtney Love would sing and walk into the audience and routinely slap men in the face. One time she was drunk while singing, punched a man in the temple, and hit him with a ring on her finger. The poor guy was rendered unconscious and hospitalized. She wasn't even arrested. Had a man done that to a woman he would have been arrested on the spot and there would be no end to the negative publicity. The man later sued her for assault and settled out of court.

So yes, there has been a long history of anti-female sentiment expressed in Rock & Roll and in hip hop. But there has been just as much anti-male sentiment in both. Hostile sentiment that has resulted in humiliation and violence to men.
 

peacenik

Senior Member
May 11, 2016
3,071
26
38
Yes Peacenik..there are plenty women who man bash and vice versa. The "be submissive" command is often thrown up in women's faces but are men submitting to their head as scripture commands??What about 1st Corinthians 11:3.."But. I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ ,the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God". Why beat women down?? Men should take a look at themselves first. Y'all are supposed to be the leaders. Right???



I believe el presidente answered this post.
 

peacenik

Senior Member
May 11, 2016
3,071
26
38
the factual feminist:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TR_YuDFIFI




Can't say I always agree with her and wonder whether she actually is a feminist or one planted by the right wing AEI to criticize the movement. Still it cannot be denied that she does make sense every once in a while.
 

peacenik

Senior Member
May 11, 2016
3,071
26
38
Gee, what happened to all the discussion on this thread?

Did I scare people away??
 

JosephsDreams

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2015
4,313
467
83
I have been out since around 10:30. I have been here only not quite 5 months, so I am not sure, but I think as the weather gets nicer, less people on here during the day. And I am going out again in 10 minutes.
 

peacenik

Senior Member
May 11, 2016
3,071
26
38
I guess, then, that the discussion is ended.

Too bad as I thought it was a good one.