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Thread: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Wow! Three months later, and nothing has changed?

    I don't know why you aren't married yet. Clearly God is not a problem, or a solution, for either of you.
    Angela53510 and oldethennew like this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Cool Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    Thank you Dave for your detailed post. I appreciate the sentiment of what you and others have said about the state of a person's heart being more important to God then doctrinal issues.

    When I hear you say that the trinity is not a salvation issue though, I think of Romans 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    I'd like to know what you think of this verse.

    Also, I need to correct you on 1 John 5:7. This verse was a clear addition to the KJV by a trinity zealot, seeking to put to rest once and for all any ambiguity about biblical evidence for the trinity. It's not an original verse and is in no early manuscripts.

    Lastly, you and almost everyone else has said something to the effect of "Stop talking to her about the trinity. You're getting in the way and pushing her away. Let God do the work". To that I would respond, What if God is working through me on this issue? God works through people. I understand that everyone here just wants me to shut up and never mention the trinity to her again. OK - I think I can do that. But I want practical advice on what else I can do to enable someone else to explain it to her, since I am apparently so completely toxic.
    Hi Beaver750,

    You are so right about 1 John 5:7, it was added by zealots. I believe in the trinity but I think we miss the point of what the Holy Spirit is. Our finite brains can't really fathom being everywhere at once. By labeling the HS as a person, we bring it into our mindset. I can't get my head around the fact that God has always existed. Everything in my observation has a beginning and an end. So our perception of the HS, being limited, is not a point of salvation. I say nobody really understands the HS.

    What is a point of salvation, is the divinity of Jesus. Like it says in the first chapter of John, the pre-incarnate Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Quit calling your fiance a non-Christian. She may be where she is by divine order, so you both can search the scriptures together and combine your beliefs.
    Romans 8:28: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
    to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    Hello everyone

    My fiance and I have known each other for 6 years, have been dating for 3 years, and have been engaged for 4 months.

    I've always known that she doesn't believe in the Trinity. Despite that, I've always believed that she is the woman I'm meant to be with. I have prayed countless times for God to take her away from me if she is not the right woman for me, and He hasn't! Our relationship is pretty perfect really, but there's just this one issue that bothers me.

    She identifies as a Christian, and I believe that she is a Christian. She just believes that based on an unbiased, straight-forward reading of the bible, there is nothing to prove that Jesus is God. She also can't see how Jesus praying to God in the Garden of Gethsemane makes any sense at all. I've showed her all the bible verses that we rely upon in defense of the Trinity, but she doesn't think they make a strong enough case in favour of it. In fairness to her, there are no unambiguous bible verses that clearly spell out the Trinity; rather it is a combination of verses that we use to understand the Trinity. I've showed her John 1:1, but she just doesn't see it.

    She and I have had many many many conversations about this, and has told me that she will probably never change her mind about it. She has also asked that I stop trying to change her mind about it. I have told her in no uncertain terms that I will be talking to her about this for the rest of her life.

    She grew up as a Mormon - but renounced Mormonism long before I met her. This is probably where her views come from. But herein lies the problem. She knows that from childhood she was fooled into believing the lies of Mormonism. She is now (understandably) extremely reluctant to simply believe things just because a lot of people say its true. So its not going to be easy to help her to understand the truth.

    What should I do here? How do I help her to see the truth?

    Oh and not marrying her is not an option. She is far more likely to find the truth with me than without me, in my estimation.

    Thank you
    She believes in "the trinity", she just has a different concept of the trinity than other Christians do.

    1.) Does she believe in a Heavenly Father, the Supreme God (the one we worship)?
    2.) Does she accept Jesus Christ as the only begotten (look this word up) Son of God and saviour of the world? Does she believe we worship our Heavenly Father THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ?
    3.) Does she believe in the Holy Spirit, our constant companion and the revealer of truth?

    If she answers "yes" to all 3 (which I believe she will), then she is absolutely a Christian. The problem lies with understanding if Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit are one entity or three separate entities (but united in purpose).

    I happen to think she's right honestly. Christ "prayed to himself"... No, he was talking to His Father in Heaven, the Supreme God. When Christ asked "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?", it's not that Jesus Christ has multiple personality disorder and forgot He is somehow His own begotten Son/Father... Heavenly Fathered needed to separate Himself spiritually from Jesus Christ during that time (this is an entirely different discussion however). When Mary appears to "the gardener" (it was really Jesus), Jesus told her "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to the Father." If Jesus is also Heavenly Father, He is basically saying, "Touch me not, for I have not ascended to myself." I'll repeat, Jesus Christ DOES NOT have multiple personality disorder.

    Now then, the passages you probably read to her about how Christ and God are "one" are not literal but metaphorical. When a husband and wife "become one", do they literally turn into a hermaphrodite (being both male and female)? Obviously not... they are spiritually one... one in purpose... but they are still two physiologically separate entities. Similarly, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate entities, but united spiritually and in purpose. "No one can come to the Father but through me..." This is why we honor all things of God through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

    At the end of the day, you probably won't accept hers or my belief of the concept of the trinity, BUT where we probably DO NOT disagree is the function of each. God won't hold you or her accountable for not KNOWING which belief is correct provided both of you are seeking the truth (whatever that truth may be). God knows our hearts and only asks we do our best with what we are given. If she (or you) are wrong on a concept, but genuinely seeking His truth and wisdom, I wouldn't worry or stress about it.
    Last edited by AdolfHipster; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:06 PM.

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by pckts View Post
    This is impossible if you believe The Bible is the literal word of God.

    See if she cherry picks what she reads. Or maybe she has some other source that makes her deny Christ's divinity.

    And stress that Christ was fully human as well as fully divine, and needed to pray and follow God's direction just as we do. The Bible says his wisdom increased, meaning he went through the learning process like a human too.

    Luke 2:52
    King James Bible
    And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

    I think the issue is she doesn't believe The Bible is God's literal word. I can't imagine how with an "unbiased and straightforward" read, you don't come to the proper conclusions unless you deny what you read. Angels, demons, God himself, His miracles, and the virgin birth all identify Him.

    Show her whatever the mormon's taught her isn't in The Bible too. The trinity is just a symbol the three are one, teach her the three are one first. And you can't teach her that unless she believes The Bible is authentic truth.
    That passage actually reinforces her stance... =/

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude653 View Post
    i grew up up southern baptist and was always taught trinity doctrine but i have some questions about this doctrine
    Nowhere in the Bible does Christ claim deity or ask to be worshiped,. He always concedes to the Father God.Also nowhere in the Bible does it say that Trinity doctrine is essential for salvation
    It's not. A Christian can accept Christ as their Saviour and simultaneously worship God the Father through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. People just like to disenfranchise other Christians for not believing EXACTLY what they believe... Why do you think there are so many denominations? lol

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    I also do not believe in the trinity, but I never was a Mormon. It's funny because you have the exact opposite problem I do, I have talked to many of my friends who are trinitarians and they don't believe what the Bible says against the trinity.

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by AdolfHipster View Post
    She believes in "the trinity", she just has a different concept of the trinity than other Christians do.

    1.) Does she believe in a Heavenly Father, the Supreme God (the one we worship)?
    2.) Does she accept Jesus Christ as the only begotten (look this word up) Son of God and saviour of the world? Does she believe we worship our Heavenly Father THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ?
    3.) Does she believe in the Holy Spirit, our constant companion and the revealer of truth?

    If she answers "yes" to all 3 (which I believe she will), then she is absolutely a Christian. The problem lies with understanding if Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit are one entity or three separate entities (but united in purpose).

    I happen to think she's right honestly. Christ "prayed to himself"... No, he was talking to His Father in Heaven, the Supreme God. When Christ asked "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?", it's not that Jesus Christ has multiple personality disorder and forgot He is somehow His own begotten Son/Father... Heavenly Fathered needed to separate Himself spiritually from Jesus Christ during that time (this is an entirely different discussion however). When Mary appears to "the gardener" (it was really Jesus), Jesus told her "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to the Father." If Jesus is also Heavenly Father, He is basically saying, "Touch me not, for I have not ascended to myself." I'll repeat, Jesus Christ DOES NOT have multiple personality disorder.

    Now then, the passages you probably read to her about how Christ and God are "one" are not literal but metaphorical. When a husband and wife "become one", do they literally turn into a hermaphrodite (being both male and female)? Obviously not... they are spiritually one... one in purpose... but they are still two physiologically separate entities. Similarly, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate entities, but united spiritually and in purpose. "No one can come to the Father but through me..." This is why we honor all things of God through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

    At the end of the day, you probably won't accept hers or my belief of the concept of the trinity, BUT where we probably DO NOT disagree is the function of each. God won't hold you or her accountable for not KNOWING which belief is correct provided both of you are seeking the truth (whatever that truth may be). God knows our hearts and only asks we do our best with what we are given. If she (or you) are wrong on a concept, but genuinely seeking His truth and wisdom, I wouldn't worry or stress about it.
    So you believe that God (Jehovah), Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are different entities with one purpose correct. Not the trinity?

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Imback View Post
    So you believe that God (Jehovah), Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are different entities with one purpose correct. Not the trinity?
    It depends on how someone defines the "trinity" really. I believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit but you are correct, I think they are separate entities, united in purpose. They are metaphorically "one", just as a husband and wife are metaphorically "one" (not literally).

    I don't really see how it's a big deal either way though. As long as we all agree on the functions of each (God/Jesus/Spirit), there is nothing to fret over. There will be some arrogant "Christians" who will want to take your "Christianity card" because you don't believe exactly what THEY believe, but at the end of the day, their opinion doesn't really matter when we have the word of God to go off of.

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    Thank you Dave for your detailed post. I appreciate the sentiment of what you and others have said about the state of a person's heart being more important to God then doctrinal issues.

    When I hear you say that the trinity is not a salvation issue though, I think of Romans 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


    There are many verses which teach what a person is to DO once they ARE SAVED. He that endures to the end shall be Saved. He/She that obeys Jesus will be Saved. He that is baptized will be Saved, and many other like verses. But there is only one THING that Actually Saves a person, and that is belief in Jesus Christ, which she does. Therefore not a Salvation issue. Is she not Saved? Or do you think because she does not believe 1)Father 2)Son and 3)Holy Ghost that she is no longer SAVED? If so, where is that written?

    A person can be Saved, and not know one verse in Scriptures? A person can be Saved and not understand one verse in Scriptures. What Gets a person Saved, is not the Word of God, not the belief in the Trinity, not the belief in Rapture, not the pre-trib belief, or midtrib, or post-trib beliefs. What SAVES a person is when they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died and was risen again, they repent of their sins, and accept Him into that persons life. THAT is being SAVED.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    I'd like to know what you think of this verse.
    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    i understand she does not believe in the Trinity, are you saying she does not believe the above verse? If she does not believe that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, that that would be indeed a Salvation issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    Also, I need to correct you on 1 John 5:7. This verse was a clear addition to the KJV by a trinity zealot, seeking to put to rest once and for all any ambiguity about biblical evidence for the trinity. It's not an original verse and is in no early manuscripts.
    Clear addition? How so?

    What then God makes mistakes? Did God allow I John 5:7 to be in the Word of God for over 400+ years? Why didn't God remove it if it were not TRUE? If then I John 5:7 is not suppose to be there, then the following Scripture is a LIE.

    Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    So the Word of God teaches that ALL Scriptures are given by inspiration of God, but this generation does not believe that, they believe that MOST Scriptures are given by inspiration of God, because if I John 5:7 which is indeed a verse in the Word of God, is not suppose to be there, then ALL Scriptures can't be correct?

    Believe the Word of God and what it teaches and not what men teach should be in the Word of God or not in the Word of God.

    chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    Lastly, you and almost everyone else has said something to the effect of "Stop talking to her about the trinity.
    i never said stop talking to her about it, but you should not push it on her. If she wants to talk about it, then by all means talk with her about it, you have said your piece concerning it right, what more can you say to her that will not be repeating what you have already told her?

    my Mom was sleeping with her boyfriend. i invited her over to my house to have a talk with her, i told her that if she continued to have a sexual relationship with him, that she will be judged a fornicator and will not enter into Heaven. i said this once to her, and never said it again, she knows full well where i stand on the matter, and i need not continue to try to convince her that it is TRUE. i told her the TRUTH, and God will have others tell her that same TRUTH. And it will be God drawing her closer to God that get her to understand the TRUTH.

    You have told her the TRUTH, If God deems it important, (We know that YOU do), He will cause others to tell her too. Now when, i say when, and not "IF". When she starts to see the TRUTH of it, she may very well come to you and ask again what you believe on the matter. Pray for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    You're getting in the way and pushing her away. Let God do the work". To that I would respond, What if God is working through me on this issue?
    Amen, He could very well use you if He so chooses to do so. But you have to understand something. Why is a prophet/ess not a prophet/ess in his/her own town? Because they KNOW him/her. They know their parents, the things that they have done, or didn't do, who their brothers and sisters are, and the such. YOU are too close to her. She KNOWS you, she knows the evil things that you have done, she knows what you are like when you are angry, sad, happy, etc... She KNOWS you.

    i do not know how many times, and it is very many, that i will say something to one of my family members, and they will argue with me tooth and nail, but someone else years later tells them the exact same thing i said, that is who they believe.

    Here is one of many, and i mean MANY examples. One day my brother was convinced that drinking any form of alcohol was evil and against God. i told him that Jesus made wine, and other things i told him as well, he argued with me on those matters. that alcohol was merely grape juice, he said, and then i told him that fermented alcohol existed 2,000 years prior to even Jesus walking the planet. Anyways, he could not hear anything i said. Years later he then goes on to tell me that such and such at his Church told him how alcohol was actually wine, and that Jesus actually made wine. i told him the exact same things that man at his Church told him, but him he heard and me he did not hear. Even to this very day he gives that man at his Church for correcting his error in thinking concerning alcohol. Even though i told him the exact same things that man did a couple years previous. It's like they do not even recall me even mentioning such things. He can't even recall having the argument with me about alcohol two years ago. So i say this THING, and they do not believe, but let a person say that same THING that they believe full hardheartedly. So i have learned along time ago, that i can never reach those that KNOW me, God will have to use others to reach those that KNOW me.

    Likewise, you love your wife and desire for her to know that TRUTH that you know is TRUE, But you can talk until your blue in the face, and she will not hear you, She KNOWS you. That is why i said let it go, and let God. As much as you would like to be the one that reaches her, and to help her understand that particular Truth, odds are, you are not the one that is going to do that. And one day she will come home and Say "Honey, did you know there is actually a Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and they three make ONE God and that is the Trinity, such and such told me all about it" And you are going to look at her as if dumbfounded, because you have already told her all those things, and she is acting like this is the first time she has ever heard of it before. Wait and see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    God works through people. I understand that everyone here just wants me to shut up and never mention the trinity to her again.
    Brother it is not like that at all, i do not wish for you to shut up, i merely would like for you to try to understand that it is not likely that it will be YOU that convinces her of the TRUTH of the Trinity. If you know this, then you won't be so bent on being the one to try to help her understand that TRUTH, and even though God could very well use you, it is not very likely that he will do so, because she KNOWS you. it will be a stranger that God puts in her path that help her to see the TRUTH of the Trinity, and more than likely NOT YOU. sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    OK - I think I can do that. But I want practical advice on what else I can do to enable someone else to explain it to her, since I am apparently so completely toxic.
    lol, you are not toxic. Pray that God puts someone in her path that will lead her to the TRUTH of the TRINITY.

    If i were you though, i would look at your own self. Why is it so important to you, for YOU to be the one that teaches her about the Trinity. Why are you so concerned about it? So you are concentrating on her, that she does not know this or that, but concentrate on YOU now, why are YOU so bent on trying to help her believe the Trinity? Are you hurt that she does not believe you? You are her husband, and she should not doubt you, is that correct? Do you have a need to be RIGHT in her eyes? i don't know these things about you, but you should take a look at yourself and analyze your own self as to the WHY you are acting as you are, concerning her not knowing the Truth concerning the Trinity and her not accepting it from you.

    If it is any consolation to you, would it help you to know that she will indeed one day believe in the Trinity?


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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Hi Beaver750,

    You are so right about 1 John 5:7, it was added by zealots.
    Do you believe All Scriptures are inspired by God or not believe that verse? Apparently if you think that I John 5:7 should not be in the Word of God, then you must not think that THAT verse is inspired by God correct?

    People, believe the Word of God and every verse in it. Do not hearken to any person, group, or belief that teaches otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I believe in the trinity but I think we miss the point of what the Holy Spirit is. Our finite brains can't really fathom being everywhere at once.
    On this planet, fathom her like AIR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    By labeling the HS as a person, we bring it into our mindset. I can't get my head around the fact that God has always existed.
    God the Father has always existed, until God created a physical being made of matter, which is Jesus Christ the first begotten of the Father, Then the Father made the Holy Ghost, which is spiritual and not matter at all. Jesus (physical) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) worked together to create the universe and all things in it, which includes Heaven and the inhabitants of Heaven, the Angels.

    The Throne of God is thus: In the center part of the Throne is the Father, PURE HOLY LIGHT, to the right of the Father on the same Throne sits Jesus Christ the Fathers firstborn Son. To the left of the Father sits His second born the Holy Ghost. These three (separate entities) all sit on the same Throne of God. All three are GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Everything in my observation has a beginning and an end. So our perception of the HS, being limited, is not a point of salvation. I say nobody really understands the HS.
    God can reveal to whom God will reveal a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    What is a point of salvation, is the divinity of Jesus. Like it says in the first chapter of John, the pre-incarnate Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Quit calling your fiance a non-Christian. She may be where she is by divine order, so you both can search the scriptures together and combine your beliefs.
    There is a day coming, and it will be ONLY on that Day, that will dertermine who is and who is not Christian. And that day is the Day that the Book of Life is opened, and if your name is written therein and has not been blotted out, then and ONLY then are you judged a Christian.

    Just because i claim with my mouth today that i am a Christian, i am Saved, i am Heaven bound, does not guarantee that Tomorrow, i will be in the same good standing. i can choose to deny Christ tomorrow. i can choose not to forgive someone tomorrow, i can choose to hate someone tomorrow, i can become an atheist tomorrow if something were to happen that causes me to doubt that a God even exists. ONLY one day that determines who is Saved and who is not Saved. Not even the time of death determines that, only on that Day that we Christians call the Rapture will a person be Saved or condemned. (save the 144,000 which are sealed, these will neither be Saved nor condemned)

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Do you think it would be possible for her to tell us her side of the story? Does she get on CC?

    ^i^

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post

    What should I do here? How do I help her to see the truth?

    Oh and not marrying her is not an option. She is far more likely to find the truth with me than without me, in my estimation.

    Thank you
    Just always pray for her until she herself realize the error of her beliefs.

    Do not force her to immediately accept your belief.

    Remember that in prayer you must not doubt that it will happen (James 1:7-8) Always think that it already fulfilled even it is not yet (Mark 11:24)

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    I don't know myself but I have heard that people can be married who are different religions. Maybe you should accept her how she is. After all, you did know this about her before you married. It may be nearly impossible for you to get her to change her believes. Even if she does she would have to make the decision on her own. Remember free will. Maybe you should get counseling on how to deal with the difference.

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    Default Re: My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaver750 View Post
    Hello everyone

    My fiance and I have known each other for 6 years, have been dating for 3 years, and have been engaged for 4 months.

    I've always known that she doesn't believe in the Trinity. Despite that, I've always believed that she is the woman I'm meant to be with. I have prayed countless times for God to take her away from me if she is not the right woman for me, and He hasn't! Our relationship is pretty perfect really, but there's just this one issue that bothers me.

    She identifies as a Christian, and I believe that she is a Christian. She just believes that based on an unbiased, straight-forward reading of the bible, there is nothing to prove that Jesus is God. She also can't see how Jesus praying to God in the Garden of Gethsemane makes any sense at all. I've showed her all the bible verses that we rely upon in defense of the Trinity, but she doesn't think they make a strong enough case in favour of it. In fairness to her, there are no unambiguous bible verses that clearly spell out the Trinity; rather it is a combination of verses that we use to understand the Trinity. I've showed her John 1:1, but she just doesn't see it.

    She and I have had many many many conversations about this, and has told me that she will probably never change her mind about it. She has also asked that I stop trying to change her mind about it. I have told her in no uncertain terms that I will be talking to her about this for the rest of her life.

    She grew up as a Mormon - but renounced Mormonism long before I met her. This is probably where her views come from. But herein lies the problem. She knows that from childhood she was fooled into believing the lies of Mormonism. She is now (understandably) extremely reluctant to simply believe things just because a lot of people say its true. So its not going to be easy to help her to understand the truth.

    What should I do here? How do I help her to see the truth?

    Oh and not marrying her is not an option. She is far more likely to find the truth with me than without me, in my estimation.

    Thank you
    Beaver, these are but trivialities, for we all see through a glass darkly. Don't discourage her, or she may become embittered with you and leave altogether.

    You will never have a relationship with someone whom will believe the exact same thing as you, just leave room for God to do something.
    HisUnfailingLove likes this.

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