you hate ilegal mexicans?
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V
I don't believe that we would want floods of immigrants, even if it was a pure capitalism. The government still needs SOME money, and having hundreds of millions of undocumented workers is basically stealing from the American economy, unless NONE of those immigrants move back to Mexico ever.
And as far as the "illegals- obey laws. americans- have mercy." YES. But as stated, mercy is NOT just allowing them to break the laws.
Look at Hi's example of Norway I believe. He said that most countries have laws against stealing. Now, let's use this law as an example. Suppose that a band of people decided to walk into a local department store and start systematically taking stuff. Do you say, "Oh, they need this stuff. They shouldn't be stealing this, but whatever." Of course not! Because then, more and more groups will come in stealing stuff, and eventually you will be bankrupt. You have to ENFORCE the no-stealing policy, or else you might as well never have it.
On the flip-side, if you catch these people stealing your stuff, you do NOT hit them with stun-darts, taser them a few times, tie them up to chairs in your basement and duct tape their mouths, beat the crap our of 'em and starve them for 2 weeks before releasing them.
You must take the APPROPRIATE level of action for the circumstance, preferably being as kind as you're able to. In the case of illegals, it would be a quick back-ground check and immediate deportment. In the case of resistance, take appropriate action to get them under control, just like you would an American criminal.
And as far as the "illegals- obey laws. americans- have mercy." YES. But as stated, mercy is NOT just allowing them to break the laws.
Look at Hi's example of Norway I believe. He said that most countries have laws against stealing. Now, let's use this law as an example. Suppose that a band of people decided to walk into a local department store and start systematically taking stuff. Do you say, "Oh, they need this stuff. They shouldn't be stealing this, but whatever." Of course not! Because then, more and more groups will come in stealing stuff, and eventually you will be bankrupt. You have to ENFORCE the no-stealing policy, or else you might as well never have it.
On the flip-side, if you catch these people stealing your stuff, you do NOT hit them with stun-darts, taser them a few times, tie them up to chairs in your basement and duct tape their mouths, beat the crap our of 'em and starve them for 2 weeks before releasing them.
You must take the APPROPRIATE level of action for the circumstance, preferably being as kind as you're able to. In the case of illegals, it would be a quick back-ground check and immediate deportment. In the case of resistance, take appropriate action to get them under control, just like you would an American criminal.
J
Vidy, have you been to Mexico? I'm not talking Cancun...
How should Christians respond to global poverty and hunger?
From Matthew
Luke
Mark
All three from NIV.
Under pure capitalism, government still makes money, and in theory it could make more. This little thing called Taxes, there are also tarrifs... When more money stays here in America rather than buying foreign goods, the individual benefits, because that money is put into circulation here in America.
However, money isn't everything.
http://www.pcusa.org/stewardship/bigtent/jesusmary.pdf
A quote from the above site
We need law and order, as God is the God of order, not confusion. Non-Christian Illegals, I would deport immediately. Christian Illegals, I would make every attempt to get them legal; while increasing border security, by clamping down on illegals coming in. I don't believe in quotas. The limit on the amount of people coming into the country, should be based on the amount of paperwork that can be done.
We Americans, and western civilization, live better than 80 percent of the world, and better then 99.9 percent that lived before us. We are the rich man, in the story of Lazarus.
From luke 16
To argue that immigrants will lower our standard of living, is a bit selfish. In my opinion. Although to some extent it may be true.
How should Christians respond to global poverty and hunger?
From Matthew
Luke
Mark
All three from NIV.
Under pure capitalism, government still makes money, and in theory it could make more. This little thing called Taxes, there are also tarrifs... When more money stays here in America rather than buying foreign goods, the individual benefits, because that money is put into circulation here in America.
However, money isn't everything.
http://www.pcusa.org/stewardship/bigtent/jesusmary.pdf
A quote from the above site
We need law and order, as God is the God of order, not confusion. Non-Christian Illegals, I would deport immediately. Christian Illegals, I would make every attempt to get them legal; while increasing border security, by clamping down on illegals coming in. I don't believe in quotas. The limit on the amount of people coming into the country, should be based on the amount of paperwork that can be done.
We Americans, and western civilization, live better than 80 percent of the world, and better then 99.9 percent that lived before us. We are the rich man, in the story of Lazarus.
From luke 16
To argue that immigrants will lower our standard of living, is a bit selfish. In my opinion. Although to some extent it may be true.
V
A few good points, there, but some of your counters were rather indirect. How can you use "What good is it if a man gains the world and loses his soul?" to support the statement "How should Christians respond to global poverty and hunger?"
Yes, I see where you're coming from. We're a very rich country. However, we DO help other countries around us. Accepting everyone at once isn't the way to go, though. Most other countries are poor because of their terrible governments. Either the government is corrupt and steals from its citizens, or the country's authorities have poor management skills. It's not really our job to fix those, but we DO show to compassion to the people stuck under this form of authority. It's similar to the difference between buying a meal for a homeless man and letting him stay over a few nights, and raiding the park for homeless people to because permanent residents in your home. You would be INSANE to do the latter.
As for the rich man story, Jesus's command was specific to that man, and was an issue of concept. He's not saying to all of us, "If you're rich, go sell everything and give it away." He's saying "If you want to follow me, you need to be willing to give up the things that are most precious to you," which was wealth in the case of this man.
Now, for this statement- "We need law and order, as God is the God of order, not confusion. Non-Christian Illegals, I would deport immediately."
NO. NO NO NO NO NO. I'm sorry, but NOOOOOOOOOOO. We simply can't do this. Even though I would love to welcome a fellow brother in Christ into this country (and by ALL means, I WANT them to come in legally), I simply can't see this becoming any form of law at all any time soon. It's a blatant religious bias, and is completely unacceptable if you're looking for "law and order." Non-Christians on both sides of the border would rage, and this is a bad way of trying to show support of Christianity. I mean, it's honestly not a HUGE problem since a large majority of Mexicans are Catholic anyway, but it's still a poor concept for a law, sorry =S
Yes, I see where you're coming from. We're a very rich country. However, we DO help other countries around us. Accepting everyone at once isn't the way to go, though. Most other countries are poor because of their terrible governments. Either the government is corrupt and steals from its citizens, or the country's authorities have poor management skills. It's not really our job to fix those, but we DO show to compassion to the people stuck under this form of authority. It's similar to the difference between buying a meal for a homeless man and letting him stay over a few nights, and raiding the park for homeless people to because permanent residents in your home. You would be INSANE to do the latter.
As for the rich man story, Jesus's command was specific to that man, and was an issue of concept. He's not saying to all of us, "If you're rich, go sell everything and give it away." He's saying "If you want to follow me, you need to be willing to give up the things that are most precious to you," which was wealth in the case of this man.
Now, for this statement- "We need law and order, as God is the God of order, not confusion. Non-Christian Illegals, I would deport immediately."
NO. NO NO NO NO NO. I'm sorry, but NOOOOOOOOOOO. We simply can't do this. Even though I would love to welcome a fellow brother in Christ into this country (and by ALL means, I WANT them to come in legally), I simply can't see this becoming any form of law at all any time soon. It's a blatant religious bias, and is completely unacceptable if you're looking for "law and order." Non-Christians on both sides of the border would rage, and this is a bad way of trying to show support of Christianity. I mean, it's honestly not a HUGE problem since a large majority of Mexicans are Catholic anyway, but it's still a poor concept for a law, sorry =S
V
NOTE- (can't edit anymore I don't think)
What you said about taxes and tariffs- EXACTLY. Illegal Mexicans are UNDOCUMENTED and do NOT pay taxes as a result. It's bad, even for the small government that a nearly pure capitalism would have. Sure, more revenue for the business owner, bumping him up a tax bracket and making a small increase in taxes there, but it's nothing to make up for the loss in middle-class taxes being taken over by the undocumented illegals.
There's just no reasonable way to allow these people in other than the way we're doing now. MAYBE we could increase the quota, but it shouldn't be a sudden jump up. Increase it slightly each year and see how it works out. If it doesn't work well, stop or decrease it. If it works fine, continue with the steady increase, and STILL do not do any large jumps. Ya gotta be reasonable with these things, think about both parties, and come up with a solution that at least keep both sides from wanting to kill each other XD
What you said about taxes and tariffs- EXACTLY. Illegal Mexicans are UNDOCUMENTED and do NOT pay taxes as a result. It's bad, even for the small government that a nearly pure capitalism would have. Sure, more revenue for the business owner, bumping him up a tax bracket and making a small increase in taxes there, but it's nothing to make up for the loss in middle-class taxes being taken over by the undocumented illegals.
There's just no reasonable way to allow these people in other than the way we're doing now. MAYBE we could increase the quota, but it shouldn't be a sudden jump up. Increase it slightly each year and see how it works out. If it doesn't work well, stop or decrease it. If it works fine, continue with the steady increase, and STILL do not do any large jumps. Ya gotta be reasonable with these things, think about both parties, and come up with a solution that at least keep both sides from wanting to kill each other XD
J
Click on it, it's a link.
First. Many countries in Africa, are the way they are bacause of European Colonialism, and then the corruption that came afterword.
Second, ever heard of a homeless shelter? They let them stay there, without asking anything in return. My dad volunteered at one for a week, before becoming a liscensed RN. Yes, my dad is a nurse. I don't care what you think about him either. Is it really that insane? I'm not saying that we should create a Welfare system, that is something I am very much against, but I would be willing to help a brother out. If that means letting him stay in my home for a year, as long as he contributes and he and I are working on getting him independent, I see no problem.
Welfare doesn't work. Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.
Third
One could say, since we are all disciples of christ, we should make disciples of all nations. Depends on how you wish to interpret it.
Wealth is the most precious thing to most of us who have it. Admit it or not.
As far as religious bias, I suppose you could say god is likely to be religiously biased, since it is stated, that Jesus is the only way.
Would God be religiously biased, if he didn't let Muslims, bhuddists, hindus, or Atheists into his kingdom?
Never said it should become a law. I would however, seek to have them become legal, if that means going back and coming through the right way, I would do everything in my power, to get them back in, if they were Christian.
Many would argue, catholicism isn't christian. Even though the website I use to answer many of my question states that it is out of line at best, I can not say one way or the other.
I am a Catholic, why should I consider becoming a Christian?
First. Many countries in Africa, are the way they are bacause of European Colonialism, and then the corruption that came afterword.
Second, ever heard of a homeless shelter? They let them stay there, without asking anything in return. My dad volunteered at one for a week, before becoming a liscensed RN. Yes, my dad is a nurse. I don't care what you think about him either. Is it really that insane? I'm not saying that we should create a Welfare system, that is something I am very much against, but I would be willing to help a brother out. If that means letting him stay in my home for a year, as long as he contributes and he and I are working on getting him independent, I see no problem.
Welfare doesn't work. Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.
Third
One could say, since we are all disciples of christ, we should make disciples of all nations. Depends on how you wish to interpret it.
Wealth is the most precious thing to most of us who have it. Admit it or not.
As far as religious bias, I suppose you could say god is likely to be religiously biased, since it is stated, that Jesus is the only way.
Would God be religiously biased, if he didn't let Muslims, bhuddists, hindus, or Atheists into his kingdom?
Never said it should become a law. I would however, seek to have them become legal, if that means going back and coming through the right way, I would do everything in my power, to get them back in, if they were Christian.
Many would argue, catholicism isn't christian. Even though the website I use to answer many of my question states that it is out of line at best, I can not say one way or the other.
I am a Catholic, why should I consider becoming a Christian?
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V
^^I realize this. I'm not saying the current system is flawless, I'm just saying completely removing the system isn't really a bright idea.
As for the link, I totally missed it, sorry XD They really need to colour-code this stuff =/
As for the bias, I KNOW God is that way. But why would you show preferential treatment to a CHRISTIAN illegal rather than a non-Christian illegal? First of all, they're both breaking the law, regardless of religious alignment. Secondly, the non-Christian is someone you would have an opportunity to witness to, not just coldly shove back to their home country. And this is under the assumption that you're PERSONALLY dealing with them. As for the legal aspect of it, with policemen doing their job, and the major bulk of this conflict, I still think it's a bad idea.
As for the homeless shelter, that isn't what I said. I said invite them into YOUR home PERMANENTLY. It's one thing to have an organization set up to help these people. That's actually something I would support a good deal, and possibly work in occasionally to help out. But inviting a few dozen random strangers into your personal household would be, if nothing else, a personal safety concern, wouldn't it? I'm just saying that unrestricted immigration is very similar to this example, or at least in the view of a fair amount of people. There are good, positive ways to deal with these people, and removing all restrictions is NOT one of those ways.
As for the link, I totally missed it, sorry XD They really need to colour-code this stuff =/
As for the bias, I KNOW God is that way. But why would you show preferential treatment to a CHRISTIAN illegal rather than a non-Christian illegal? First of all, they're both breaking the law, regardless of religious alignment. Secondly, the non-Christian is someone you would have an opportunity to witness to, not just coldly shove back to their home country. And this is under the assumption that you're PERSONALLY dealing with them. As for the legal aspect of it, with policemen doing their job, and the major bulk of this conflict, I still think it's a bad idea.
As for the homeless shelter, that isn't what I said. I said invite them into YOUR home PERMANENTLY. It's one thing to have an organization set up to help these people. That's actually something I would support a good deal, and possibly work in occasionally to help out. But inviting a few dozen random strangers into your personal household would be, if nothing else, a personal safety concern, wouldn't it? I'm just saying that unrestricted immigration is very similar to this example, or at least in the view of a fair amount of people. There are good, positive ways to deal with these people, and removing all restrictions is NOT one of those ways.
There are an estimated 12 million illegals in america right now. The action of 19 middle-eastern descent extreme fanaticals has become the reason to say that mexican illegals are horrible people. Something seems wrong with that picture.
Do you actually know anyone who picked produce for a summer job? Im just asking because I grew up in the US and never knew anyone who did that. The kids I grew up with always ended up either working retail, fast food or babysitting for the summer. I find it hard to believe that americans would even be considered for harvesting produce because 1) the folks that run the place will only hire illegals so they can keep costs down and 2) I think most americans who aren't living in poverty would never consider breaking their backs all day in the hot sun for less than minimum wage.
Do you actually know anyone who picked produce for a summer job? Im just asking because I grew up in the US and never knew anyone who did that. The kids I grew up with always ended up either working retail, fast food or babysitting for the summer. I find it hard to believe that americans would even be considered for harvesting produce because 1) the folks that run the place will only hire illegals so they can keep costs down and 2) I think most americans who aren't living in poverty would never consider breaking their backs all day in the hot sun for less than minimum wage.
G
HI Bro-The bible tells us to love all people-Myself I try to do exactly that.people who are racist are in the minority.I don't hate them either-I am called by God to love ALL people regardless-I pray for division and strife to be taken away,and God IS moving and Will supress all hate in the end.
And a big HUG for our mexican freinds too!
And a big HUG for our mexican freinds too!
Thankyou stillwaters, my sentiments as well.
This is not about racism, but about law.
What is sad is all those from many countries throughout the world work to enter this country legally, why should people from Mexico be an exception to the rule?
I see much racism in the idea that simply because you are mexican you have the right to be here.
Many believe that this country is theirs.
And the statement that we do the jobs that Americans will not?
I have stood knee deep in raw human sewage and cleaned it up just as any other that needed a job.
I have several neighbors that have lost their buisnesses because they could not compeate with those that hired illeagals.
The crime issue is huge and a drain finacially.
The drain on our country finacially for medical, and social services is crippling. Yet not contributed to by those here illegally.
Almost all Americans came from another country, but they came without asking others to support them ,and did not use their chldlren to gain. This is not just those of mexican decent that do this.
The Arizona law is not to single out , but a simple tool to help officers to remove those that are criminals. Mainly to prevent the entrance of those that seek harm to this country.
This country has always opened it's arms to those that seek safety and hope here.
Maby the question that should trully be considered is why the U.S. is now so less welcoming to those that claim racism?
God bless, pickles
This is not about racism, but about law.
What is sad is all those from many countries throughout the world work to enter this country legally, why should people from Mexico be an exception to the rule?
I see much racism in the idea that simply because you are mexican you have the right to be here.
Many believe that this country is theirs.
And the statement that we do the jobs that Americans will not?
I have stood knee deep in raw human sewage and cleaned it up just as any other that needed a job.
I have several neighbors that have lost their buisnesses because they could not compeate with those that hired illeagals.
The crime issue is huge and a drain finacially.
The drain on our country finacially for medical, and social services is crippling. Yet not contributed to by those here illegally.
Almost all Americans came from another country, but they came without asking others to support them ,and did not use their chldlren to gain. This is not just those of mexican decent that do this.
The Arizona law is not to single out , but a simple tool to help officers to remove those that are criminals. Mainly to prevent the entrance of those that seek harm to this country.
This country has always opened it's arms to those that seek safety and hope here.
Maby the question that should trully be considered is why the U.S. is now so less welcoming to those that claim racism?
God bless, pickles
Many of my family members did this as well as my husbands for many years.
Many people would do so now as well, but have felt threatened if they try.
The guilt in the work place goes both ways in this, if owners would be honest, then employees could be honest as well.
One of my sisters has told stories of what was done by , thankfully only a few, but what some illegals would do to the food they picked.
It is not the honest and good that are rebuked by many in this country. but those that show only evil intent and disregard for the law.
It is not about race, but about those that seek to destroy, the drug problem that goes unchecked in Mexico, those that put this country at risk .
Remember also that all that have come to the U.S. legally ,have the right to be safe!
I am close to seeing the crime that has increased ,because of illegals, it is bad and getting worce.
Simply because one states there is a problem does not mean they are racist, it means there is a problem!
It might serve well if those that seek to be here legally, would instead of complaining, help to find a solution.
It would be a good thing if we can solve the negative aspect of this issue, then those that seek hope here can do so with open arms recieving them.
Streanthening the right of any person from all over the would to have their chance.
God bless, pickles
Many people would do so now as well, but have felt threatened if they try.
The guilt in the work place goes both ways in this, if owners would be honest, then employees could be honest as well.
One of my sisters has told stories of what was done by , thankfully only a few, but what some illegals would do to the food they picked.
It is not the honest and good that are rebuked by many in this country. but those that show only evil intent and disregard for the law.
It is not about race, but about those that seek to destroy, the drug problem that goes unchecked in Mexico, those that put this country at risk .
Remember also that all that have come to the U.S. legally ,have the right to be safe!
I am close to seeing the crime that has increased ,because of illegals, it is bad and getting worce.
Simply because one states there is a problem does not mean they are racist, it means there is a problem!
It might serve well if those that seek to be here legally, would instead of complaining, help to find a solution.
It would be a good thing if we can solve the negative aspect of this issue, then those that seek hope here can do so with open arms recieving them.
Streanthening the right of any person from all over the would to have their chance.
God bless, pickles
A
God bless you too=)
actually i mean to this coment:
"I think Arizona will soon have the death penalty for illegals....but of course we shouldn't misunderstand that as being racist.
"
Can imagine if this would be true..
the point is: i dont hate illegal, and as Christian i am not alow to hate someone..and just because the person is illegal???
well we cant judge cause only God knows the true story behind this person..
Here in Swiss i saw many people(Cristian people..some of them from my church) who were here in the eyes of governament as illegal living the Grace of God.
they were supose to go back to them countries and now the got papers.
All i can say: it was by God grace
so as Christian all we can do is show them Love. And before jugde try to know them story. Cause i know also a lot of people who r illegal that shouldnt be here..but again who am i to judge???? i just leave all in God's hands!
actually i mean to this coment:
"I think Arizona will soon have the death penalty for illegals....but of course we shouldn't misunderstand that as being racist.
"Can imagine if this would be true..
the point is: i dont hate illegal, and as Christian i am not alow to hate someone..and just because the person is illegal???
well we cant judge cause only God knows the true story behind this person..
Here in Swiss i saw many people(Cristian people..some of them from my church) who were here in the eyes of governament as illegal living the Grace of God.
they were supose to go back to them countries and now the got papers.
All i can say: it was by God grace
so as Christian all we can do is show them Love. And before jugde try to know them story. Cause i know also a lot of people who r illegal that shouldnt be here..but again who am i to judge???? i just leave all in God's hands!