Gothic Christianity From My Own Perspective

I have been a youth leader for several years, and over those years I have been asked several times how the wife and I were able to reach "those kids" that others were unsuccessful in reaching. (Gothic) I put the following together as a ministry tool towards reaching (or at least starting a conversation with) those kids. I would be careful to add that it is not always "kids", but some young adults as well. I have copied and pasted the document below just to see what conversation it might generate in this forum...

I guess the best place to start is to emphasize the idea of Gothic culture. Anyone who believes them self to be gothic would tell you that it is not something that is easily defined. In ways, it is that un-definable nature that in my opinion characterizes what the term means. I should add that trying to make the transition from the gothic subculture to the Christian subculture was never easy for me...in fact I never really fully crossed over. Over time, Christ has shown me that my unique character (as seen through my gothic perspective) is not really too far removed from His unique character. Mankind is a lot like cattle in that they readily herd themselves together with like people because that is what is most comfortable and familiar. While all humanity comes equipped with an innate desire to belong to the group, there is a small segment of humanity who for differing reasons has no desire to conform in order to belong to the group. While this non-conformity might be considered as a quality in the gothic person, it should not be mistaken as non-conformity just for the sake of not conforming. The fact is there are some gothic imposters (posers) who dress in black just so they can be like “Yeah...I’m all gothic...down with the system”. A true Goth can spot these fakes very quickly. The point should also be made that there is a difference between healthy non-conformity and outright total rebellion. (This being a good place to mark a difference between the Christian and non-Christian gothic person) In my mind, it is this subtle innate shift away from the mainstream that defines the first half of what I see as being gothic. The other half is best defined as a kind of dark aesthetic through which I view the world around me. This should not be confused as depression, but is more like a mysterious dark awe through which I appreciate the complexity of the world around me. It is by these two means that I identify with Christ in my Gothic Christianity.
Christ himself was a type of saboteur and was very much unlike the rest of humanity in his perception of the world and the people around him. His life was in direct defiance of the accepted norm for religious as well as non-religious people of his time. I can not imagine what it would have been like to walk around in your creation as the creator! You NEVER see Christ all jovial and shiny happy in the scriptures the way you do in the people who are supposed to be made in his image. What you DO see is a deep love for people and a sober/serious tone through which He communicated that deep love. The key difference to understand is the one between happiness and being at peace. I do not see how Christ could have ever been happy walking around in his creation that was poisoned with sin! I DO see how he could have (and did) walk around at peace with who he was, and what he was here to do. It is through this that I identify the most with my savior. I am not ever happy because I am troubled the more I see how tainted and poisoned this world truly is...and I long to be free of it! I am, however, at peace with who I am and what I am here to do. I do my best to try and mirror Christ in my deep love for people, but some people make it REALLY hard for me. People fear what they do not understand. As a gothic Christian it is better for me to not feed that fear...and to help them understand.

Hey Christepidemic,

I just thought I'd drop a note and say that I'm also a Goth. Was? Above all, today I'm a follower of Jesus Christ, by his grace and mercy.

I think that in the desert of Goth hearts, Christ has been making straight paths for the people who glory in darkness.

[seoulsearch]

Hi there,

I was wondering if you could explain (from your perspective) exactly what Gothic Christianity is? I hope that's not a disrespectful or stupid question--I'd just like to know more for the sake of my own curiosity--so that I can be more sensitive to people who subscribe to Goth beliefs. I am completely unfamiliar with the two entities being grouped together in the same context...

I used to work with a young guy (about 19) who claimed to be Goth and when I asked what that meant, he said it was to worship death, but because something powerful enough to end life should be given the utmost attention and respect. He often talked about the deaths of family members... and about wanting to kill people who made him angry.

Of course, Christianity is not about seeing death as the ultimate source of our attentions, so I'm very interested in the views of Gothic Christians.

Thanks!

Hi SoulSearch (Korea)... there are 2 SoulSearchs on

There is no correct answer to that question.

As Christepidemic noted, 'goth' is not easy to define. My personal definition would be a 'black sensuality'. Goths tend to be fixated to some degree on death, which sometimes spills over into things like vampirism or the occult. They also tend to be fairly literate, highly individualistic and into visual art and/or drama. The goth mask is also useful for hiding inner shyness in some people.

As to 'goth Christian'... simply a Goth who became a Christian in my books.

Best advice for your friend; deal with him as an individual.

[seoulsearch]

I was just wondering then, how Goths mesh the death-centric theme of their beliefs with the life-centered theme of Christianity? Again, I'm not trying to sound difficult or disrespectful at all--this is really the first time I've seen anyone talk about both issues in a harmonious way.

My experience could be different, but Christianity for me has always had an emphasis of life--that Jesus died to give us abundant life on earth and eternal life in heaven.

So, if Goths are in reverence of death, how do they view life here on earth and life after death, if, unless I'm misunderstanding, death seems to be the main focus instead of life?

Thanks for your open-mindedness to my questions.

(I noticed another SoulSearch here too Some people have "helpfully" pointed out that I have spelled "soul" wrong, but "Seoul", South Korea, is where I was found and assumedly born.)

[daddycat]

Christepidemic: very good essay, and interesting. Have not seen this put into words before, but it feels like it hits the spot. I'm not goth, but I know/have known a number of them and appreciate them, although sometimes they scare me :P

Seoulsearcher: clever nickname... i likey

[daddycat]

Seoulsearch*

oops

[MahogonySnail]

Goths are an ancient germanic tribe. heheh. Goths don't scare me. But I usually point out to them that they all look alike, they all conform to look like one another. Which is ironic, by conforming to one another, they are going against the very same noncomformity with the world that they profess. Try rainbow colours for a change, seriously, instead of black and white and red tartan. I guess I don't have much respect for any sub-culture, punks, goths, emo's, Victoria's secret catalogues, whatever, I think it is stupid. Add tree-huggers, environmentalists, hippies, yuppies, whatever, add them to the list too. Only drawing attention to themselves, easy targets for ridicule, they bring it upon themselves. They think they are something great. If they don't want to conform with the world, try following Christ. Christianity is by definition non-comformity with the world and you dont need to wear makeup either. Being a gothic is really about being deceitful, a show, a pretense, being someone they are not, in order to try and prove a point. Hiding behind the facade of fashionable gothic clothing, makeup and jewellry. I don't like talking to fakes. Try being a hun, or a vandal j/k, now that I've put my two cents in, I guess I'll be moving along.

My apologies SeoulSearch... that should have clicked as soon as I saw the Korean flag

I don't think goths 'reverence' death. I see instead the working of God in most goths. God has given them a clear picture that the world, and all the things of the world, are fallen and corrupt. In such a place (without God), there is solace only in an end. And in really good goth dance music.

Like most people though, goths will seek to dismiss and ridicule the promises of God... because they are familiar with the empty promises of the world. Like most people though, they also secretly crave the hope and grace of God.

Christians are 'life-centric' because we recognize God's promises and eternal hope through His Son. Without those things, we would merely be slaves at the mercy of the the Prince of this world, and all the lies and filth that are his domain. Goths merely acknowledge that the world is filth, and choose to withdraw from it.

Your friend may not be 'goth' however. He may just be a teenage boy who enjoys wearing black. There is a big difference.
-----

Hello MahoganySnail,

You've just mocked, insulted and shown a callous disregard for several of your brothers and sisters in Christ on this site, who either are or were goths.

This 'christ' that you follow.... the one that teaches you to ridicule and superficially judge others... I can see why goths, tree-huggers and all others who are not 'normal' like you would choose to reject both you and him. This 'christ' who you follow seems to conform to the pattern of this world.

Try following 'christ'? Why would anyone want to follow this 'christ' who you are modelling?

Try following Christ. Guess I'll be moving along now...

[MahogonySnail]

Dragoon, I don't care whether they are or were goths, visi goths, ostrogoths, huns, vandals, as much as I don't care if you wear pink or black nail polish. All sub-cultures, no matter what they are , hippie, yuppie, whatever, are of the world, and Christ said do not be conformed to the world, period. There's no such thing as "gothic christianity", Christianity is not like many different flavors of icecream... "goths" are as human as you or I, it is only they who fool themselves into believeing they are somehow 'different", thanks to a facade costume, makeup, dress and mannerisms. Such pretense and human pride. I believe Christ was counter-cultural, and that must include sub-cultures. But not for the sake of being counter-cultural. He was Himself. If someone wants to be identified as a "Goth Christian", fine, but I think God wants Christians to be identified as Christians, period. Try to avoid reading scripture through the eyes of gothic subculture, or any culture. That produces a distorted view of Christianity and our Saviour.

[MahogonySnail]

By the way this discussion could be extended to the different "brands" of christianity, such as patriotic flag-waving american brand christianity. Bah, it's all worldiness. It's all human pride and vanity in human achievement, culture, dress, politics, government. Give up the goth I say. Just be yourself. Wear pink or green for a change instead of black. I highly doubt that a person who comforms themselves to look like every other goth in the world, is truly being themselves. There are deeper forces at play here. Christ did not separate himself from society and be different for the sake of being different. He mixed with important people, and mixed with unimportant people. He was different because of who He was, not because of the way he dressed. If you're a christian you dont' need to be a goth to be different.

Hello MahoganySnail,

There's no such thing as "gothic christianity"

Perhaps you might try reading the post above, where I respond that "As to 'goth Christian'... simply a Goth who became a Christian in my books."

I will also say this very clearly to you, in the name of Jesus Christ whose name you carry, stop trying to conform Christ to your interpretation of what is acceptable. Try to avoid reading the bible through your own prejudices, because you are representive of the very thing you accuse others of... "a distorted view of Christianity and our Saviour. "

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Mt 7:1-5)

There is a plank in your eye brother. Please humble yourself before God and meditate upon your own failings before you point out the speck in your brother's eye. You'll probably feel anger and hurt as you read this post, because I am correcting and rebuking you, but it is not me, but scripture which does so. Please look past your own hurt to see the word of God.

[MahogonySnail]

I would hope that all Goths, or any who label themselves after another name other than Christ, will one day be able to say with the apostle Paul:

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

And in doing so, you will be far from normal I assure you. No black makeup required.

[MahogonySnail]

Dear Dragoon, I am not judging anyone. That would involve dictating where a certain person is at with their walk in Christ and I have not done that. I am merely stating my opinion about gothicness and how it and all culture/sub-cultures is ultimately counter-productive to our walk with Christ. If God doesn't put His finger on our worldliness at some point, He will eventually.

There is a plank in your eye brother. Please humble yourself before God and meditate upon your own failings before you point out the speck in your brother's eye. You'll probably feel anger and hurt as you read this post, because I am correcting and rebuking you, but it is not me, but scripture which does so. Please look past your own hurt to see the word of God.

Correcting me and rebuking me for what? Expression my opinion? Often I find it is the "do not judge anyone", people, who are the most judgemental of all. I have no plank. I just see how counter productive all these subcultures are. I can understand it's probably cool to be goth, but it is still worldliness all the same. So instead of interpreting Christ and the scripture through our sub-cultural glasses, let's put the goth aside, and find Christ for who He really is, rather than who we assume Him to be.

[Chocolate]

Isaiah 42:6-8 (New King James Version)

6 “ I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,
7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the prison,
Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.
8 I am the LORD, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.

Luke 1:78-80 (New King James Version)

78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
With which the Dayspring from on high has visited[a] us;
79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
To guide our feet into the way of peace.”

80 So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his manifestation to Israel.
9 For He satisfies the longing soul,
And fills the hungry soul with goodness.

10 Those who sat in darkness and in the shadow of death,
Bound in affliction and irons—
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God,
And despised the counsel of the Most High,

Matthew 4:15-17 (New King James Version)

15 “ The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned.”[a]

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


You can not walk in darkness and have fellowship with Jesus. You can not claim darkness of the goth world and belief and walk in the full light of Jesus.



Jesus was not rebellious but obedient even to the point of death, the death of the cross. We need to become like Jesus is. Goths don't need sympathy, they need Jesus. Preach Jesus and Him crucified. The cross is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. Paul said I am determined to know nothing among you except Jesus and Him crucified. There is a point of becoming all things to all men, but not with toleration of walking in the darkness or excepting any life style except the life of Jesus.

Hello MahoganySnail,

Where in Christ do you see

easy targets for ridicule, they bring it upon themselves

?

Being a gothic is really about being deceitful, a show, a pretense, being someone they are not, in order to try and prove a point. Hiding behind the facade of fashionable gothic clothing, makeup and jewellry. I don't like talking to fakes.

Yet Christ chose to sit with tax collectors and sinners. He said that he did not come for the righteous, but for the sinners... not because any person is without need of salvation, but because the righteous were so sure they already had it. The painted outcasts of his day, the prostitutes, came and anointed his feet with their riches and tears... yet you take pride in not talking to them? Are we to emulate the world, or Christ?

I am not judging anyone. That would involve dictating where a certain person is at with their walk in Christ and I have not done that.

Where in scripture does it narrow down judgement to only their walk in Christ? You write, "Being a gothic is really about being deceitful, a show, a pretense, being someone they are not, in order to try and prove a point. Hiding behind the facade of fashionable gothic clothing, makeup and jewellry. I don't like talking to fakes." How is this not judgement?

If you do not see how you are in need of correction and rebuke, then please sit down with an elder or pastor at your church and show him this thread. Does Christ command that we have an outward show of righteousness? Or does he demand circumcision of the heart, and words, thoughts and deeds that glorify Him... not just through words, but also in how we use those words.

Please take this to an elder or pastor at your church and discuss this with them.

Hello Chocolate,

Please read the posts above. No one is talking about living in darkness... rather about drawing people into the light.

[Chocolate]

Originally Posted by Dragoon9

Hello Chocolate,

Please read the posts above. No one is talking about living in darkness... rather about drawing people into the light.

Orgnl OP stated. "I should add that trying to make the transition from the gothic subculture to the Christian subculture was never easy for me...in fact I never really fully crossed over."

The gothic culture is very dark in nature. un-Definitive, vague, separatists, including themselves to be outcasts. But the culture enigma is solved by this. Walk as He walked by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus isn't a culture. He is Life.

Ok, I am glad to see that this post has generated some conversation, but I think I need to clarify some things at this point…

FIRST, if you read my original post, I never made mention about make up or clothing or any “outward” things like that. (I actually grouped those things with people who I consider“posers” in the culture.) I drew a contrast between healthy non-conformity (as I believe was modeled by Jesus), and worldly non-conformity as practiced by the unbeliever. I believe that Christ was “radically obedient”, and that his obedience to God was very different from what the cultural norm for his time was. THIS is where I draw a line between the “worldly” and “Christian” gothic worldview.

SECOND, is the idea I present concerning a “gothic” worldview. The bottom line is that ALL humanity is segmented into various subcultures. I define a “subculture” as a group of people with a similar worldview living out that worldview in similar ways with each other. I would also add that (sadly) the behavior I see in the Christian people around me most of the time does not reflect the love and humility I would expect. I find most Christians to be arrogant, combative, and self righteous, and opinionated. In contrast, most of my gothic friends are sober, serious, introspective, and passive. I think that Christ uses our individuality to reach people, but find that most Christians cling to “traditions” (with no biblical basis I might add) that exclude some people from being able to come to His throne. We sing “Just As I Am” in our churches, and come to Him on those terms, but most Christians seem to forget that after they become “spiritual”. When I say, “I never fully crossed over”, what I mean is that I am unable to be “arrogant, combative, self righteous, and opinionated” like the Christians around me.

Lastly, I add that the essay was written to help “gothic” teenagers (whom I have found are largely unwelcome in most churches) reconcile their worldview with Christianity in a way that is meaningful to them. By doing this, I have seen many of them open the door to Christ and begin a meaningful walk with Him. No one can dispute that the coming of Christ SERIOUSLY disrupted the religious system of His time. This disruption was not due to any rebellion on Christ’s part, but rather because the fulfillment of the scriptures He brought to the table were radically different from what the practices had become in His time and culture. The “gothic” Christian identifies with Christ in that he/she is “radically” converted to Christianity and in their obedience to Christ and scriptures; they disrupt what seems to have become the accepted and “traditional” norm in the Christian subculture.

Blessings,
CE

[MahogonySnail]

Where in scripture does it narrow down judgement to only their walk in Christ? You write, "Being a gothic is really about being deceitful, a show, a pretense, being someone they are not, in order to try and prove a point. Hiding behind the facade of fashionable gothic clothing, makeup and jewellry. I don't like talking to fakes." How is this not judgement?

It's not judgement because it's true. Dressing up that way is really a pretense, it is not who they really are on the inside, seriously. What I said is true not judgement. I really don't like talking to people who feel they have to belong to a particular sub-culture. That doesn't mean I won't and haven't talked to them, I just don't like talking to people who always put up a smokescreen of who they really are:

The goth subculture is a contemporary subculture found in many countries. It began in the United Kingdom during the early 1980s in the gothic rock scene, an offshoot of the post-punk genre. The goth subculture has survived much longer than others of the same era, and has continued to diversify. Its imagery and cultural proclivities indicate influences from nineteenth century Gothic literature along with horror movies and to a lesser extent the BDSM culture.

I would suggest that there is "no such thing as a goth" , a true goth, a fake goth, it's all in their imagination and mind. Pre 1980's/70's and no teen would have a clue what a goth is I'd say. Some have talked about being a goth on the inside, and true goths vs fake goths. I don't believe there's any such thing as being a goth on the inside. Being a goth is about subculture and is really superficial at best. Just like surfer dudes, they are also a sub-culture. When a goth or anyone starts being who they really are instead of just copying one another according to a certain sub-culture, then they are on a level where you can communicate with them honestly.

If you do not see how you are in need of correction and rebuke, then please sit down with an elder or pastor at your church and show him this thread. Does Christ command that we have an outward show of righteousness? Or does he demand circumcision of the heart, and words, thoughts and deeds that glorify Him... not just through words, but also in how we use those words.

Please take this to an elder or pastor at your church and discuss this with them.

Oooh you are so serious, about something so trivial. No one is talking about outward shows of righteousness, I'm all about getting to the heart and beyond the smokescreen of sub-culture, or any culture. My conscience is clear.