Just because. . .

[CanadaNZ]

Just because. . .society accepts something or says its ok, DOES NOT mean it is ok. I meet so many people on here that think that just because it is accepted by society means it must be ok and the bible must adapt. The BIBLE IS RIGHT. . .end of story! There are passages on biblical marriage like Ephesians 5, just because its not popular or seems different doesn't change the fact that its the truth. This goes for homosexuality, woman pastors, and any other false teachings. I know that I will get flack for saying this but I do not care, because I believe God and what he tells us in His Word. Jesus says “ If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me." I will not reject anything in the bible just so I can feel comfortable with the world and what they think. I will never apologize for God's Word to anyone. Live as God's Word teaches and never look back!!

[loveme1]

Great post.

[jonnoboy]

Sorry, I am possibly being thick here, but what do u mean about the woman pastors part, what you think they shouldnt have any?

Sorry

Jonno

[CanadaNZ]

Originally Posted by jonnoboy

Sorry, I am possibly being thick here, but what do u mean about the woman pastors part, what you think they shouldnt have any?

Sorry

Jonno

Yes read 1 Timothy, Titus and 1 Corinthians 14:26-40, the bible is clear. Do I think churches with women pastors (or for that matter the women themselves) are going to hell, no this is not a primary issue, but they are still biblically wrong. People need to immerse themselves in God's Word to know the truth, not just think "well that's how it is so that's how it should be", this is a clearly black white issue. Leaders in the Israels Kings in the OT, men. . .the priesthood, men. . .the disciples, men. . .elders/pastors in the church, men. The Bible is clear.

[jonnoboy]

ok, thanks

[loveme1]

Prosperity Gospel is obviously wrong,

Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

We fit into God's plan, not God fitting in with our plan.

[CanadaNZ]

Originally Posted by loveme1

Prosperity Gospel is obviously wrong,

Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

We fit into God's plan, not God fitting in with our plan.

That is true, there are many other passages as well that show that as well. On top of it all Jesus Himself was poor and homeless and He confirms this in Luke 9, "And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." He stayed at friends houses and was supported by the people around him, like Mary and Martha. He even performed a miracle in order to pay the temple tax. If your teachings exclude Jesus there is a problem, then you are just like the pharisees who felt that God, the Messiah should fit inside there legalistic box.

[loveme1]

Timothy 1:9

9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


A faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished.

[CanadaNZ]

Originally Posted by loveme1

Timothy 1:9

9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


A faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished.

Amen

[loveme1]

I think that people are being tempted, by people they believe to be Christians.

And those Christians have been blessing themselves, under the "God is blessing me" line.

And anyone that questions that, is only" jealous".

What if God had tested those Christians, and they failed? Do we continue to contribute to their destruction? That will lead to our own destruction?

Well, no we don't. We read the Bible for ourselves and let the Holy spirit set us straight.

I am not saying to judge others by your own opinion, but you can use scripture to recognize it.

[Lo]

Joe Dallas : the Gay Gospel : " We had too deep a respect for the Bible to ignore it. But in my opinion, we weren't willing to deny it either. Sorevising it was the next best thing."

[CanadaNZ]

Originally Posted by Lo

Joe Dallas : the Gay Gospel : " We had too deep a respect for the Bible to ignore it. But in my opinion, we weren't willing to deny it either. Sorevising it was the next best thing."

LOL!!! Yea revising God's Word worked so well for Satan

[loveme1]

Well, one tv personality yesterday said "get him done with" she was telling people to speak to God first thing in the morning.
Not sure how we can ever get done with God, it is a 24/7 commitment.

[CanadaNZ]

Originally Posted by loveme1

Well, one tv personality yesterday said "get him done with" she was telling people to speak to God first thing in the morning.
Not sure how we can ever get done with God, it is a 24/7 commitment.

Yea someone forgot the "pray without ceasing" part of the bible

[Cheekygrin]

Slavery is still in? *tick*
Polygamy is ok? *tick*
Genocide? *tick*
Capital punishment? *tick*
Sexism? *tick*
Racism? *tick*
Conversion or death? *tick*

Ok, cool! Looks like we're all set then. Lets make a religion!
(And yay, there was much rejoicing and merriment. The end)

To be fair, you could probably remove forced conversion since the New Testament. There's far more allowance for freedom of religion now. And there IS a minor catch when it comes to polygamy if you want to be in certain positions of ministry. Otherwise, the scriptures make more than enough case for everything else.

Fun times

[dmdave17]

Slavery is still in? *tick*
Polygamy is ok? *tick*
Genocide? *tick*
Capital punishment? *tick*
Sexism? *tick*
Racism? *tick*

I would like to take a moment to address this "criticism" of Scripture in what I hope will be a logical manner. I want to say, up front, that it is only my opinion and I do not claim to be an expert or biblical scholar.

The Bible is, really, two books. One, it is a historical record of events that shaped Jewish and Christian culture, and two, it is intended to be a blueprint for Godly living. But the "story" centers around one indisputable fact; mankind "fell" with Adam and each and every one of us since then has inherited his sinful nature.

So, let's examine the above statements in light of that fact.

Slavery. Yes, slavery existed in biblical times. It was widely practiced by the Egyptians, Romans and to a lesser extent, the Greeks. As a matter of fact, God's chosen people were generally the slaves; and not the slave owners. However, nowhere in the Bible is slavery condoned. The closest it comes to that is Paul's letter to the Colossians, where he says, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters,..." (Colossians 3:22-23) And here, he was speaking primarily to Gentiles, to whom slavery was an ordinary fact of life. His point was not that slavery was "ok", but that Christians should strive to do their best in every circumstance.

Again, polygamy existed in pre-Christian times. It is reported in the old testament as a fact. However, when Christ came along, he was pretty adamant that marriage was supposed to be one man and one woman. When the Pharisees attempted to test Him on the matter of divorce, He replied, "Haven’t you read,”... “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh ’So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” (Matthew 19:4-6) And when He was pressed on the subject, he stated, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." (Matthew 19:8, emphasis added) This would seem to rule out polygamy, at least in God's eyes.

Again, genocide existed in the Old testament. There is no doubt that God told Joshua several times, and Moses before him, to leave nothing alive when the Israelites were in the process of winning the Promised Land. But He had a specific purpose for those orders. He knows human nature. He knew that, if these conquered peoples were allowed to live, and intermingle with the Israelites, they would eventually drag them down to their level. (History pretty much proved that He was right on that one.) But in the New testament, Jesus came as the Prince of Peace. He brooked no violence, even on the night He was arrested and turned over to the Jewish elders. Therefore, again, the historical perspective does not support the fact that the Bible supports genocide.

The statement about capital punishment is purely a personal issue on your part. The bible offers ample evidence that God favored capital punishment, for a wide variety of offenses (including homosexuality, you "gay priders"). The commandment given to Moses which is widely translated as "Thou shalt not kill" is actually translated as "Thou shalt not commit murder".

Sexism, remember historical record vs. Godly living. There is no biblical evidence that Jesus was sexist in any way. In the most well known of stories concerning his attitude toward women, He rebuked Martha for wanting her sister to "help in the kitchen". “'Martha, Martha,' the Lord answered, 'you are worried and upset about many things, but few things are needed—or indeed only one.Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.'” (Luke 10:41-42) And while some of the Apostle, Paul's remarks could be construed as sexist, you have to consider the audience he was playing to. In addition, he always balanced his warnings to wives with warnings to husbands that they better earn their wives' "submission".

Again, what racism existed in the Bible, I believe, was not based on the color of a person's skin, or the shape of their nose, but by the god(s) they worshipped. And isn't that the whole point of Scripture; our God is the one true God, Creator of the universe, and worthy of all worship and praise? One need look no further than the parable of the Good Samitaritan to find out God's attitude toward racism. And finally, all vestiges of racism evaporated when God called Paul to carry the Gospel to the gentiles. "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6)

Therefore, to cite these factors as reasons we shouldn't believe the Bible, or adhere to its teachings, in my opinion, is very short sighted indeed. everything in the Bible is true, from the historical record to the great commission. And on some level, I expect that the book of Revelation will turn out to be true also. When that day comes, if it comes in my lifetime, I hope I am counted among those who believed Scripture.

(I apologize for being so long-winded, and for any typographical errors which may have sneaked through. As you can see, I am pretty passionate about this subject.)

God bless us all.

Originally Posted by dmdave17

I would like to take a moment to address this "criticism" of Scripture in what I hope will be a logical manner. I want to say, up front, that it is only my opinion and I do not claim to be an expert or biblical scholar.

The Bible is, really, two books. One, it is a historical record of events that shaped Jewish and Christian culture, and two, it is intended to be a blueprint for Godly living. But the "story" centers around one indisputable fact; mankind "fell" with Adam and each and every one of us since then has inherited his sinful nature.

So, let's examine the above statements in light of that fact.

Slavery. Yes, slavery existed in biblical times. It was widely practiced by the Egyptians, Romans and to a lesser extent, the Greeks. As a matter of fact, God's chosen people were generally the slaves; and not the slave owners. However, nowhere in the Bible is slavery condoned. The closest it comes to that is Paul's letter to the Colossians, where he says, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters,..." (Colossians 3:22-23) And here, he was speaking primarily to Gentiles, to whom slavery was an ordinary fact of life. His point was not that slavery was "ok", but that Christians should strive to do their best in every circumstance.

Again, polygamy existed in pre-Christian times. It is reported in the old testament as a fact. However, when Christ came along, he was pretty adamant that marriage was supposed to be one man and one woman. When the Pharisees attempted to test Him on the matter of divorce, He replied, "Haven’t you read,”... “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh ’So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” (Matthew 19:4-6) And when He was pressed on the subject, he stated, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." (Matthew 19:8, emphasis added) This would seem to rule out polygamy, at least in God's eyes.

Again, genocide existed in the Old testament. There is no doubt that God told Joshua several times, and Moses before him, to leave nothing alive when the Israelites were in the process of winning the Promised Land. But He had a specific purpose for those orders. He knows human nature. He knew that, if these conquered peoples were allowed to live, and intermingle with the Israelites, they would eventually drag them down to their level. (History pretty much proved that He was right on that one.) But in the New testament, Jesus came as the Prince of Peace. He brooked no violence, even on the night He was arrested and turned over to the Jewish elders. Therefore, again, the historical perspective does not support the fact that the Bible supports genocide.

The statement about capital punishment is purely a personal issue on your part. The bible offers ample evidence that God favored capital punishment, for a wide variety of offenses (including homosexuality, you "gay priders"). The commandment given to Moses which is widely translated as "Thou shalt not kill" is actually translated as "Thou shalt not commit murder".

Sexism, remember historical record vs. Godly living. There is no biblical evidence that Jesus was sexist in any way. In the most well known of stories concerning his attitude toward women, He rebuked Martha for wanting her sister to "help in the kitchen". “'Martha, Martha,' the Lord answered, 'you are worried and upset about many things, but few things are needed—or indeed only one.Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.'” (Luke 10:41-42) And while some of the Apostle, Paul's remarks could be construed as sexist, you have to consider the audience he was playing to. In addition, he always balanced his warnings to wives with warnings to husbands that they better earn their wives' "submission".

Again, what racism existed in the Bible, I believe, was not based on the color of a person's skin, or the shape of their nose, but by the god(s) they worshipped. And isn't that the whole point of Scripture; our God is the one true God, Creator of the universe, and worthy of all worship and praise? One need look no further than the parable of the Good Samitaritan to find out God's attitude toward racism. And finally, all vestiges of racism evaporated when God called Paul to carry the Gospel to the gentiles. "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6)

Therefore, to cite these factors as reasons we shouldn't believe the Bible, or adhere to its teachings, in my opinion, is very short sighted indeed. everything in the Bible is true, from the historical record to the great commission. And on some level, I expect that the book of Revelation will turn out to be true also. When that day comes, if it comes in my lifetime, I hope I am counted among those who believed Scripture.

(I apologize for being so long-winded, and for any typographical errors which may have sneaked through. As you can see, I am pretty passionate about this subject.)

God bless us all.

Thanks, that guys post was sick. Its that kind of criticism from "Christians" that brings about the spiritual apostacy we see in the church today.

[Cheekygrin]

Thanks dmdave17.
You have done an excellent job of making the point clear. There are cultural considerations to be aware of. And not everything in scripture lines up with God's intention for the conduct of our lives. We live in a fallen world and His grace abounds where sin is present. To say the scriptures are to be fully obeyed is to misunderstand their purpose. Jesus even said in John 5:37-40 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.".
I wondered when someone would find my "tick" post and interpret it in light of the message of the Living Word and not the plain logos. Life and living can not be summed up by words on paper. Rather, we live by every word that PROCEEDS from the mouth of God. Meaning we need to have a living relationship with the living God. Hearing Him continually.

And to HhhLGA89, I can appreciate your sentiment. However, I highly esteem the bible as something God created for us. However, it is just that. A created tool, not the Creator. I find error in people following it blindly separate from following God. It becomes a wicked substitute for The Word Who Became Flesh. Even to the point of becoming idolatry. A quick glance over our own history of Christianity reveals some horrific abuses that come from the abuse of blindly following scripture. Even Jesus was approached in an attempt to lure him away using scripture. In all three of Christ's responses, he makes God the focus. (See John 5)
Scripture is a powerful tool for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). But our authority and power must come from our relationship with God, not from intellectual assent to the scriptures alone. This is so important because the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers to the light of the gospel (2 Cor 4).
If I can create discussion and critical thinking through controversy that leads people deeper in their walk, then it is a tool at my disposal for good. To create a post on a christian site saying the bible is true seems mildly redundant to me. Well meaning as it may be. But again, if I can be so blatant as to cause questions in the minds of readers, then I am more than happy indulge in a little stirring. Even God uses jealousy to His own ends.

Originally Posted by Cheekygrin

And to HhhLGA89, I can appreciate your sentiment. However, I highly esteem the bible as something God created for us. However, it is just that. A created tool, not the Creator. I find error in people following it blindly separate from following God. It becomes a wicked substitute for The Word Who Became Flesh. Even to the point of becoming idolatry. A quick glance over our own history of Christianity reveals some horrific abuses that come from the abuse of blindly following scripture. Even Jesus was approached in an attempt to lure him away using scripture. In all three of Christ's responses, he makes God the focus. (See John 5)
Scripture is a powerful tool for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). But our authority and power must come from our relationship with God, not from intellectual assent to the scriptures alone. This is so important because the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers to the light of the gospel (2 Cor 4).
If I can create discussion and critical thinking through controversy that leads people deeper in their walk, then it is a tool at my disposal for good. To create a post on a christian site saying the bible is true seems mildly redundant to me. Well meaning as it may be. But again, if I can be so blatant as to cause questions in the minds of readers, then I am more than happy indulge in a little stirring. Even God uses jealousy to His own ends.

First off thanks for a polite responce. You basically said in your last post that Slavery, Polygamy, Genocide, Capital punishment, Sexism, Racism, Conversion or death were all things that God (and ultimately the bible) supports (by the bible I asuming that you are taking the Old and New Testament as a whole, which they are intended to be. Although most of those things were not true even in the old testament, they all are at least done away with in the New). If I am right and you are saying that, you are believing something that no one with a fair understanding of scripture would ever agree with you on. which goes to the heart of why I believe what you wrote in your first post and this responce is false:

The only time the bible leads to destructive actions is:

1. When people are ignorant in understanding what the bible really says on any issue for in all issues the bible offers the greatest opinion/command.
2. When people abuse the bible and twist the scriptures to suit there own desires. And can we really blame the bible because of that????
3. The other reason is Christians not consulting the bible but doing what ever they think is best in there own eyes. It's easy to blame Christianity and therefore the bible, but again, can we really blame the bible because of disobedient Christians either???

You bring up church history, I don't know what you mean in John 5...But in every explanation you gave and can give is based on either 3 explinations I gave and cannot honestly be blamed on Christian following the bible.

You say:

Originally Posted by Cheekygrin

our authority and power must come from our relationship with God, not from intellectual assent to the scriptures alone.

This is a VERY dangerous statement. Your saying that apart from an intellectual reading of scripture there is another means of finding authority and power and it comes from our relationship with God. What does that mean?? Where and when do we come to know about this other authority and power apart from an assent to what we read in scripture??? Does God wisper them to you? I don't understand. I agree our power(ability) comes from God but our authority comes from scripture. God gave us scripture to be our authority. So intellectual assent alone is all we have at our disposal in terms of knowing our authority, if by intellectual assent you mean agreeing with what God's word says. Our relationship with God will not produce any new revalations on authority, that's what the word is for. And even knowing what our power is comes from scripture, which we must first give assent to in order for us to know and believe. So yes, our power and authority come from God, but you will not know what they are apart from scripture. A relationship with God alone will not produce that knowledge.

Originally Posted by Cheekygrin

If I can create discussion and critical thinking through controversy that leads people deeper in their walk, then it is a tool at my disposal for good.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 - If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

If you use your critical thinking I'm sure you can see the linkage between your interest in controversy and verse 3.

1 Corinthians 8:2 - The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.

We mustn't think we know everything there is to know about something and therefore filter the word of God through our thinking. Our "critical" thinking must be filtered through the word of God.

Originally Posted by Cheekygrin

To create a post on a christian site saying the bible is true seems mildly redundant to me.

Philippians 3:1 -Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

2 Peter 1:12 - So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have.

Most things Christians already know but it is important to be reminded of them lest we fall away from them and have situations like the one we're having now. How many Christians now believe that the bible is only partly the word of God and therefore open to critiquing??

How can you wholeheartedly follow God without wholeheartedly following His word?